Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022

[ChatteringBirds]

Is there a website where the known evidence - not rumors- is all laid out on one page, with links to source?

This is a case in which truth versus rumor is really muddied, IMO.

I would like to be clear on the facts/details, such as did items go missing from Kyron's home, and if so, which items? Did Terri send an email to his teacher, and what exactly did it say? Were there inconsistencies with the timeline, and if so, what were they?
Etc.

But my feeling is these sorts of details remain withheld by LE (?)

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Is there a website where the known evidence - not rumors- is all laid out on one page, with links to source?

This is a case in which truth versus rumor is really muddied, IMO.

I would like to be clear on the facts/details, such as did items go missing from Kyron's home, and if so, which items? Did Terri send an email to his teacher, and what exactly did it say? Were there inconsistencies with the timeline, and if so, what were they?
Etc.

But my feeling is these sorts of details remain withheld by LE (?)

I wholeheartedly agree. The early posters on this forum did a good job in collecting links from news sources, but said sources did a terrible job preserving their content.

 

[minazoe]

I think when you look at a circumstantial case you have to look at motive. Then with the suspect you really have to look at opportunity and the person's history ...

the motive can be simple. She resents the child and wants the husband to herself , or in this case she needs to remove both the husband and the child because there cannot be an heir.

she is accused of murder for hire against her husband, hating his child, lying to the teacher about the child's schedule ( this has been known since the onset) that day . she had opportunity as she was the last person seen with Kyron.

everything about her is shifty and that is why she is suspect number one..

mOO

 

[Truth Prevails]

I think the police began to look at Terri because Desiree came to them the first night and said she believed Terri was involved - as she admits to in the Rebecca Morris book.

Snipped Quote: "It is important to recognize that cases where the abductor is known to the child are far more common than cases where the abductor is a complete stranger ... "

Do you think law enforcement may be aware of the above statement? I do.

By the time they interviewed Tony and Desiree (separately)--well into the early morning hours of June 5th, 2010--they would have been aware of Kyron's excused absence from Skyline and probably already saw a copy of Terri's email to Kyron's teacher.

Of course, Desiree had something to add. Terri stole her husband while she was pregnant with Kyron. Terri then moved into Desiree's home in Aloha with Kaine. Desiree and Kyron moved out. Terri had taken not only Desiree's husband but she had taken Desiree's and Kyron's home. More would be taken from Desiree a few years later. And then the unthinkable would occur.

For approximately eight years, Desiree struggled to have a cordial relationship with her for Kyron's sake. She explained in the book that she had known Terri for a long time at the point of Kyron's disappearance and could tell when she was lying.

That would all be relevant in the investigation into a missing child. Law enforcement knows how to listen with an open mind. They hear all kinds of stories all the time.

But exactly what Desiree told law enforcement that night during the interview requested by them, she did not reveal fully. At least not in the book by Rebecca Morris that I read.

What about what Kaine has to say about Terri's actions early into the investigation? It seems he had his "concerns", too.

Snipped Quote:
13. Following Kyron’s disappearance, I began to have concerns that Respondent had done something with Kyron, and was not being truthful. Respondent failed the first polygraph test law enforcement gave her regarding Kyron’s disappearance. Respondent’s reaction and behavior after this test were highly unusual and suspect. I asked Respondent repeatedly for answers regarding her whereabouts on June 4, 2010 and Kyron’s location. During those conversations, she never expressly denied to me her involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, though she has subsequently denied her involvement to law enforcement. She did not answer my questions, and provided no explanations. Her story changed. She showed no emotion or concern for Kyron. She seemed only focused on her interests and problems with law enforcement. Respondent even stated “I am done cooperating” with law enforcement and expressed her desire to hire a criminal lawyer.

14. I questioned and probed her numerous times, asking her to tell me where she was on June 4th and what she knew about Kyron’s disappearance. Law enforcement requested a second polygraph within days after the first. She appeared for that test, but walked out in the middle of the test. Law enforcement requested a third test. Respondent resisted the test for approximately one week. She finally agreed and took the third polygraph test. She completed the third test and failed again.
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/petition.PDF

Once again, in my opinion, Terri's own actions caused the problem. She is not the victim.

And it's not that law enforcement never looked anywhere else. They investigated the school janitor; they investigated the flannel shirt guy. They gathered surveillance video from the 7-11 on Highway 30 where yet another "suspicious" white truck was seen. They requested info from everyone at the school that morning concerning the name of anyone who might not be showing on the list but who had been seen at the science fair. They did that at least three times; maybe four. This was not and is not a witch hunt initiated by Desiree.

and at no point have the witnesses confirmed publicly what they saw. Morris certainly didn't get a quote from any of them in the book.

Good. A witness should not appear in the media or give interviews to anyone, least of all to family members or someone acting on their behalf. The defense could use those interviews to show bias and discredit the witness at trial.

And if these were genuine, and there was actual evidence of Terri removing Kyron, the investigation would have looked very different.

I notice you keep saying this. Terri was his stepmother. She had every right to "remove" him from school that day. They cannot charge her with kidnapping because she was his stepmother. All it equates to is that Terri left the school with Kyron--they know that. They are sure of that. But they don't know what she did with him after that point.

For example, since Desiree specified the sightings took place on the parking lot, why were the police looking at the access road?

Because people who had been at the school that morning approached LE of their own volition saying that they had seen the F250 parked on the access road. Another person said they saw someone in the F250 talking on a cell phone. Terri was supposed to be inside the school at that time. Law enforcement wanted to know if anyone else had seen the same thing.

There would have been no reason to do so, and for that matter, no reason for anyone to move a car up on it if Terri's just going to stroll through the parking lot.

The reason was that she needed the car parked in an area where no one could see her when she did whatever evil she had in her mind to do. When she finished her stroll and made the corner, she had to move fast because she had to get her all-important alibi in place for the all-important hour (to her) of 9:00 am to 10:00 am.

One of the questions that caused her to fail her many polygraphs was whether or not Kyron was in the truck with her. In my opinion, Kyron--in some state--was in that truck with her when she left the school premises.

Justice for Kyron!

 

[Knox]

Bravo Truth! Hitting the like button wasn't enough.

 

[ReadySet]

Do you have anyone's word to the contrary?

So as far as we know, there's no evidence the MCSO have requested an interview with Terri post-lawyer.

sbm

My concern is that you are stating things as fact, and when challenged on it, your response is as above; some form of "Well, do you know that it's not? How do you know she didn't? Do you know that it didn't happen?" etc.

IMO, that is a poor form of argument.

 

[Vern]

sbm

My concern is that you are stating things as fact, and when challenged on it, your response is as above; some form of "Well, do you know that it's not? How do you know she didn't? Do you know that it didn't happen?" etc.

IMO, that is a poor form of argument.

There's a lot of things that have been stated as 'fact' in Kyron's threads over the past decade.

Where are you Kyron? It's been a decade plus ... the current state of doing business is failing you and your justice.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Snipped Quote: "It is important to recognize that cases where the abductor is known to the child are far more common than cases where the abductor is a complete stranger ... "

Do you think law enforcement may be aware of the above statement? I do.

Which is why they should look at friends and family, yes. Not ignore other possibilities. Isabel Celis, Jacob Wetterling, Lindsey Baum were all abducted by complete strangers after all.

By the time they interviewed Tony and Desiree (separately)--well into the early morning hours of June 5th, 2010--they would have been aware of Kyron's excused absence from Skyline and probably already saw a copy of Terri's email to Kyron's teacher.

You're talking about an email that has never been proven to exist, never spoken of by LE, and the very existance of which makes no sense whatsoever.

Of course, Desiree had something to add. Terri stole her husband while she was pregnant with Kyron. Terri then moved into Desiree's home in Aloha with Kaine. Desiree and Kyron moved out. Terri had taken not only Desiree's husband but she had taken Desiree's and Kyron's home. More would be taken from Desiree a few years later. And then the unthinkable would occur.

For approximately eight years, Desiree struggled to have a cordial relationship with her for Kyron's sake. She explained in the book that she had known Terri for a long time at the point of Kyron's disappearance and could tell when she was lying.

Yes, Desiree obviously (and understandably) harbored a lot of resentment towards Terri. It doesn't have to be a conscious thing, but it certainly is something that can cloud your judgement and interpretation of statements and events, especially in a traumatic situation like this.

That would all be relevant in the investigation into a missing child. Law enforcement knows how to listen with an open mind. They hear all kinds of stories all the time.

But exactly what Desiree told law enforcement that night during the interview requested by them, she did not reveal fully. At least not in the book by Rebecca Morris that I read.

I also don't know what she said to the police, but she did say what made her think Terri was lying:

Desiree was immediately suspicious and began to question Terri. Her story didn’t ring true. Desiree played it back in her head as they continued to talk. She dissected everything Terri said. Terri hadn’t “dropped Kyron off”; she had gone into the school with him. Terri said she’d waved good-bye to Kyron. Desiree challenged Terri. “You can’t see Kyron’s room from the top of that stairway,” she said. Terri was vague. Not because she was emotional or crying or upset—she wasn’t. Her story just didn’t make sense. Desiree immediately thought, My God, she’s lying to me.

- Boy Missing, Rebecca Morris

She was wrong about the stairway. And the "dropped Kyron off" bit is a good example of the bias I mention above.

What about what Kaine has to say about Terri's actions early into the investigation? It seems he had his "concerns", too.

Snipped Quote:
13. Following Kyron’s disappearance, I began to have concerns that Respondent had done something with Kyron, and was not being truthful. Respondent failed the first polygraph test law enforcement gave her regarding Kyron’s disappearance. Respondent’s reaction and behavior after this test were highly unusual and suspect. I asked Respondent repeatedly for answers regarding her whereabouts on June 4, 2010 and Kyron’s location. During those conversations, she never expressly denied to me her involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, though she has subsequently denied her involvement to law enforcement. She did not answer my questions, and provided no explanations. Her story changed. She showed no emotion or concern for Kyron. She seemed only focused on her interests and problems with law enforcement. Respondent even stated “I am done cooperating” with law enforcement and expressed her desire to hire a criminal lawyer.

14. I questioned and probed her numerous times, asking her to tell me where she was on June 4th and what she knew about Kyron’s disappearance. Law enforcement requested a second polygraph within days after the first. She appeared for that test, but walked out in the middle of the test. Law enforcement requested a third test. Respondent resisted the test for approximately one week. She finally agreed and took the third polygraph test. She completed the third test and failed again.
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/petition.PDF

I mean, that just goes to show how weak the case against Terri is. Kaine is putting most of his emphasis on the polygraph tests, which we know are unscientific and utterly useless in determining guilt or innocence. The rest is him reading into her words and behaviour. A lot of people genuinely believe that polygraphs are lie detectors, and when those fail, they get the erroneous belief that a person is lying.

Once again, in my opinion, Terri's own actions caused the problem. She is not the victim.

Failing a polygraph isn't your own action. It's bad luck.

And it's not that law enforcement never looked anywhere else. They investigated the school janitor; they investigated the flannel shirt guy. They gathered surveillance video from the 7-11 on Highway 30 where yet another "suspicious" white truck was seen. They requested info from everyone at the school that morning concerning the name of anyone who might not be showing on the list but who had been seen at the science fair. They did that at least three times; maybe four. This was not and is not a witch hunt initiated by Desiree.

It's interesting that I just read a defense of the Perugia police for their hyperfocus on Amanda Knox, arguing that they still questioned other suspects and looked into other leads. Tunnel vision is not a black-or-white issue, but exists on a spectrum. It can make it easier to dismiss or disregard the other leads you get.

I don't know just how the MCSO worked, but what little info has seeped out has me less than impressed. And I do believe the results speak for themselves.

Good. A witness should not appear in the media or give interviews to anyone, least of all to family members or someone acting on their behalf. The defense could use those interviews to show bias and discredit the witness at trial.

If so, I think it was highly irresponsible of Rebecca Morris to name the classmate in question. But it does come with problems of its own. For one, if the sighting was at 8:50, as Desiree claims in the Morris book, what on earth was the classmate doing in the parking lot? The bell had rung five minutes earlier, he should be in the classroom, shouldn't he?

And another, the classmate actually did speak to media on several occasions, including here:

But Ms. Porter started class at 10:00 a.m., time for kids to return to their homerooms and take their seats. It's at this point that Carson remembers noticing that something wasn't right. "I went to sit to my seat. I looked back. He wasn't there. And then a couple more minutes, I looked back and then after lunch I kept looking back to see if he came back, but he never came back."

But this kid supposedly saw Kyron leave with his stepmother an hour earlier.

I notice you keep saying this. Terri was his stepmother. She had every right to "remove" him from school that day. They cannot charge her with kidnapping because she was his stepmother. All it equates to is that Terri left the school with Kyron--they know that. They are sure of that. But they don't know what she did with him after that point.

Yet the other parent has rights too, don't they? If they have evidence she removed him from school (the hypothetical email, supposed witness sightings), then I doubt there was nothing they could do legally in regards to Kaine's parental rights. I could be wrong, of course, but I'll leave that to someone more versed in Oregonian criminal law.

But this again stumbles on the increasingly convoluted theories needed for Terri's guilt. If she told everyone and their mother at school that she was taking Kyron out of there (and an email confirming this takes it out of the realm of unlikely and into fantasy), why did she attempt to hide it from everyone outside the school? It's Schroedinger's Kidnapper - depending on the outcome we need to maintain belief in her guilt, she either attempted to hide her tracks or proclaimed her intentions loudly.

It just seems incredibly irrational to me.

Because people who had been at the school that morning approached LE of their own volition saying that they had seen the F250 parked on the access road. Another person said they saw someone in the F250 talking on a cell phone. Terri was supposed to be inside the school at that time. Law enforcement wanted to know if anyone else had seen the same thing.

Yes, someone saw a white truck on the access road. No evidence it was Terri's, but that's obviously what the police believed.

The reason was that she needed the car parked in an area where no one could see her when she did whatever evil she had in her mind to do. When she finished her stroll and made the corner, she had to move fast because she had to get her all-important alibi in place for the all-important hour (to her) of 9:00 am to 10:00 am.

But as has been amply demonstrated with pictures, it would be just as visible from the parking lot entrance if the truck was at the shoulder of the road or a few yards up the access road. There's also the matter of the baby, who Terri carried with her all morning. Did she strap her in before killing Kyron, or after? Either way, it is an incredibly poor choice of place to commit a murder.

One of the questions that caused her to fail her many polygraphs was whether or not Kyron was in the truck with her. In my opinion, Kyron--in some state--was in that truck with her when she left the school premises.

Which is an absurd question on its face. Kyron was in the truck with her - when she drove to school. Just more proof that polygraphs are bunk.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

sbm

My concern is that you are stating things as fact, and when challenged on it, your response is as above; some form of "Well, do you know that it's not? How do you know she didn't? Do you know that it didn't happen?" etc.

IMO, that is a poor form of argument.

No, those were your responses.

How would you know whether or not LE has contacted Terri's lawyer to set up a meeting? They might have and lawyer said no.

"Terri said" doesn't work for me. LE does not share everything.

No evidence known to the public.

My response was this:

In 2016 Terri said no one had contacted her lawyer. The police has also never claimed that they tried to set up an interview and her lawyer declined. At least, that's to my knowledge.

Anyone can, of course, make their own judgement on the veracity of Terri Horman. I have made judgements on the veracity of statements in the Rebecca Morris book, so it would be hypocritical of me to disagree. But I have seen statements - like the existance of an email detailing an appointment for June 4th and witnesses that saw Terri leave with Kyron - treated as facts, when they are just the statements of a single person.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Which is why they should look at friends and family, yes. Not ignore other possibilities. Isabel Celis, Jacob Wetterling, Lindsey Baum were all abducted by complete strangers after all.

Hmm. I don’t believe there has been a resolution in Lindsey Baum’s case, to date. But, please, let’s not take Kyron’s discussion off-topic. I'll cave and agree there was.

In Kyron's case, other possibilities were definitely looked into. They investigated the school janitor and the flannel shirt guy. They gathered surveillance video from the 7-11 on Highway 30 where Terri said a "suspicious" man with a white truck was seen lurking about and asking where the nearest school was located. They requested info from everyone at the school that morning concerning the name of anyone who might not be showing on the list but who had been seen at the science fair. They did that at least three times; maybe four. Law enforcement also checked on the whereabouts of all pedophiles in the immediate and surrounding areas.

I'm sure there are more who were ruled out only we don't know about them. (And, of course, we would have no reason to know about them if they were ruled out).

This was not and is not a witch hunt initiated by Desiree.

You're talking about an email that has never been proven to exist, never spoken of by LE, and the very existance of which makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes, I’m talking about an email that Desiree Young, Kyron’s mother—a person who was regularly briefed by law enforcement in the early stages of Kyron’s disappearance—mentioned. Desiree’s veracity is not in doubt, in my opinion.

Of course, it has never been spoken of by law enforcement. They are not in the habit of releasing details, big or small, in an open investigation. That’s never going to happen. They have been known to "leak" information if they feel it suits their purposes to have the public made aware.

Desiree mentioned it in the discussion of an “absentee bill” passed to require all schools to send more timely notifications to parents when their child is absent from the classroom. Skyline School did nothing wrong on June 4th, 2010, Desiree said. They had the email to prove it. The email to Ms. Porter, Kyron’s homeroom teacher, excused Kyron’s absence. The email was from Terri, herself.

That email also created the benefaction of the huge 6-plus hour “window of opportunity”. The only people who would find “sense” in it, would be the people (or person) who needed the 6-plus hour “window of opportunity” to complete the evil deed. Which, in this case, was the seeming disappearance; the seeming vanishing, of a small and helpless 7-year-old boy. Kyron Richard Horman.

Yes, Desiree obviously (and understandably) harbored a lot of resentment towards Terri. It doesn't have to be a conscious thing, but it certainly is something that can cloud your judgement and interpretation of statements and events, especially in a traumatic situation like this.

True, that. And especially when plunged into a traumatic situation, all our feelings (particularly the ones causing our initial reactions) in relation to the trauma have the possibility of becoming relevant. So law enforcement needs to know. Let them sort it. We are emotionally traumatized.

Desiree, Kyron’s mother, did precisely and simply that in the dying hours of June 4th and into the early morning hours of June 5th.

I also don't know what she said to the police, but she did say what made her think Terri was lying:

She was wrong about the stairway. And the "dropped Kyron off" bit is a good example of the bias I mention above.

Oh, okay. Here you’re saying: “she did say what made her think Terri was lying” whereas earlier you said: “ … Desiree came to them the first night and said she believed Terri was involved”. (This was the statement I was responding to originally).

I was pointing out that no one knows what Desiree said to law enforcement the first night. Not by reading the Rebecca Morris book. But I guess we agree now.

An explanation she gave for what made her believe Terri was lying is quite different, in my opinion.

I agree with Desiree about the stairway. Terri changed her story regarding where she was standing when she last saw Kyron at least two times (I think there was a third story, too); and, in my opinion, none of them are the truth.

Listen to what she says in this one video regarding where she was standing. Within moments of telling Dr. Phil she stood at the top of the stairs by the gym and watched him go to his door, she suddenly "agrees" with her location as shown on the original diagram that Dr. Phil is using for reference (which is in the hallway in front of the main stairs).

Regarding the "dropped Kyron off" statement, Desiree is right.

FYI--I'm going to break up my response to one very long comment into several shorter comments. Sorry if anyone finds this inconvenient. I'm not trying to monopolize the thread.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I mean, that just goes to show how weak the case against Terri is. Kaine is putting most of his emphasis on the polygraph tests, which we know are unscientific and utterly useless in determining guilt or innocence. The rest is him reading into her words and behaviour. A lot of people genuinely believe that polygraphs are lie detectors, and when those fail, they get the erroneous belief that a person is lying.

Here are a few past statements by Tony and Desiree. It seems they basically agree with Kaine.

Snipped Quote:
It started when all four family members submitted to lie detector tests. Tony tells Dateline he noticed right away that something wasn't gelling for detectives because they asked Terri Horman to submit to a polygraph more than once.
Tony Young: I thought that something must not be right, something must not be allowing them to check her off their list.
Kate Snow: Isn't it possible, though, that she was just nervous, that she didn't pass her lie detector test with flying colors because she was emotional or upset or nervous?
Tony Young: There's more to it than just that. The information that you're giving, does it—does it hit your ear and sound right? Does it make sense?
Kate Snow: She wasn't making sense?
Tony Young: Not from the information I heard from her.
A source close to the family says Terri complained the polygraph test made her feel like a criminal. Investigators, she said, were aggressive and tried to rattle her. Tony and Desiree say the biggest question marks revolved around Terri's whereabouts that morning that Kyron went missing.
Desiree Young: She couldn't explain to them for about two hours worth of time where she was or what she was doing. And there was something else that gave Desiree and Tony a sinking feeling that something wasn't right. They say Terri's cell phone records apparently didn't match up with where she said she was on the morning of Kyron's disappearance.
Tony Young: That to me is strike two. That's huge… There's starting to be some structural problems with what she's saying at that point. And then it continues to stack up.

Little Boy Lost

Kate Snow reports from inside the family circle of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman to bring viewers the latest developments in the case, and an emotional and candid interview with his biological parents, Kaine and Desiree. In addition, she speaks exclusively to Desiree and her husband, Tony, who...

www.nbcnews.com

Snipped Quote from my unofficial transcription:
Reporter: Right. She also says, well, she explains that she is deaf in one ear and that’s the reason why she essentially failed that first polygraph test. What’s your reaction to that?
Desiree: Well, I can’t believe that that would be a reason you would fail a polygraph. And not only that but then fail two others after that and walk out. So, I just have a hard time with that story. We haven’t heard that for five and a half years. Her story has always been that her timeline didn’t line up with the video surveillance and the eyewitness accounts. Her questions that she got asked were very direct and very clear. She also gave those back to us in the house after she had done the polygraph. So, I know that it lines up with what law enforcement is telling me; so, I know that she heard the questions.

Video: Desiree Young's response to Terri Horman's People interview

MEDFORD-- The mother of Kyron Horman is speaking out after the former stepmother of the boy shared her story for the first time with People magazine.Kyron disappeared from Skyline School in Portland over 5 years ago on June 4, 2010. Terri Horman says she t

ktvl.com

Failing a polygraph isn't your own action. It's bad luck.

LOL I bet you won’t be saying that when this case goes to trial and the polygraphs aren’t allowed as evidence because they would be too prejudicial to the defendant.

As previously said, a polygraph is a tool and a good one. That’s why those who are guilty but walk among us as innocent don’t care for them. (As well as still others who just like to support them, I guess).

It's interesting that I just read a defense of the Perugia police for their hyperfocus on Amanda Knox, arguing that they still questioned other suspects and looked into other leads. Tunnel vision is not a black-or-white issue, but exists on a spectrum. It can make it easier to dismiss or disregard the other leads you get.

I don't know just how the MCSO worked, but what little info has seeped out has me less than impressed. And I do believe the results speak for themselves.

Every time Amanda Knox is compared to Terri she is further victimized. There are no similarities no matter how cleverly disguised. In my opinion.

If so, I think it was highly irresponsible of Rebecca Morris to name the classmate in question. But it does come with problems of its own. For one, if the sighting was at 8:50, as Desiree claims in the Morris book, what on earth was the classmate doing in the parking lot? The bell had rung five minutes earlier, he should be in the classroom, shouldn't he?

And another, the classmate actually did speak to media on several occasions, including here:

But this kid supposedly saw Kyron leave with his stepmother an hour earlier.

Well, yes, I suppose the child should have been in the classroom at that time but maybe he was running five minutes late that day. It happens.

I notice in your link he doesn’t specifically mention seeing Kyron in the parking lot. Perhaps he saw something unusual or something that frightened him in the parking lot at 8:50 am and that’s why he remembered and kept looking behind him to see if Kyron had returned, even hours later. Perhaps simply noticing Kyron walking in the parking lot beside Terri without his jacket made the sighting stick in his young mind. It’s hard to say. Sounds like he could be a good witness, though.

I doubt a few comments like that would spoil his credibility. I was referring to a one-on-one interview with the author or a media personality, which you seemed to be calling for in your earlier comments. Perhaps something he would receive payment for. Defense attorneys have fun with that type of interview.

IIRC, Desiree didn’t mention his last name in her book.

I find him much more credible than adorable little Tanner who was unconscionably paraded before the media by a friend of Terri’s but who hadn’t given Kyron another thought until he was watching the evening news with his father.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Yet the other parent has rights too, don't they? If they have evidence she removed him from school (the hypothetical email, supposed witness sightings), then I doubt there was nothing they could do legally in regards to Kaine's parental rights. I could be wrong, of course, but I'll leave that to someone more versed in Oregonian criminal law.

Very sensible idea.

But we know when Terri found herself on the other side of the fence, she discovered she had no parental rights. Kaine had their baby; just as she had had Kyron. Where is Kyron?

Snipped quote: The third call came in at 11:39 p.m. and was about a child custody issue. A source said Terri reported that Kaine packed up and took their 19-month-old daughter at 1:30 in the afternoon.

An officer found no parental rights problem and forwarded the call to those investigating the disappearance of Kyron.

Terri Horman made 9-1-1 calls the day husband left

{p}A source said the first call made by Terri came in as a Priority Three call at 5:18 p.m. and was about someone in a truck threatening her.{/p}

kpic.com

But this again stumbles on the increasingly convoluted theories needed for Terri's guilt. If she told everyone and their mother at school that she was taking Kyron out of there (and an email confirming this takes it out of the realm of unlikely and into fantasy), why did she attempt to hide it from everyone outside the school? It's Schroedinger's Kidnapper - depending on the outcome we need to maintain belief in her guilt, she either attempted to hide her tracks or proclaimed her intentions loudly.

It just seems incredibly irrational to me.

Nah. It’s simple. She took Kyron from school that day as she had every legal right to do. She had previously provided the teacher with the email for three reasons: 1) to excuse his absence; 2) so Desiree and Kaine would not be alerted by a phone call from the school reporting he was not present, and 3) to provide herself with the 6-plus hour window of opportunity she needed to complete and cover her evil deed. She didn’t bother with a formal goodbye knowing that fewer people who noticed them leaving would be fewer witnesses she would have to deal with later. Common sense. She is intelligent enough that she would have seen the risks, but perhaps she thought she could control them. Perhaps she misjudged the intensity of the investigation.

Its simplicity is what made it work. Just another normal day until it wasn’t.

In my opinion, the only outcome required is the following:

Where is Kyron? Justice for Kyron!

Yes, someone saw a white truck on the access road. No evidence it was Terri's, but that's obviously what the police believed.

On the day a small boy “disappeared”, the sighting of any white truck, or any vehicle at all of any make, model, or color, in that timeframe, on the access road (where it is definitely out of sight) or possibly even on the shoulder of the road in front of the school, (where it's kind of out of sight) would be investigated.

Terri is not the victim.

But as has been amply demonstrated with pictures, it would be just as visible from the parking lot entrance if the truck was at the shoulder of the road or a few yards up the access road. There's also the matter of the baby, who Terri carried with her all morning. Did she strap her in before killing Kyron, or after? Either way, it is an incredibly poor choice of place to commit a murder.

Are you able to confirm Terri was carrying the baby that morning? No pressure for a link or anything. I’ve heard she usually used a stroller when at school but never saw any confirmation.

We know Kaine was concerned about what his daughter might have witnessed:
Snipped Quote:
It causes great pain to wonder if Kiara was with Respondent on June 4, 2010 and witnessed some unimaginable act of horror.

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/petition.PDF

From the picture demonstration, I concluded the opposite. It’s a “private enough” place to commit a murder that wouldn’t have taken long when time was of the essence. We can’t see through a truck and the access road slightly curves making it a much better choice than the shoulder of the road. In June, the foliage would have been full. The grass and bushes taller.

Kyron was 3’8” tall and weighed 50 lbs. I hope it was from behind and he never saw it coming. Surely, she had that much compassion for her stepson. She probably was on her way in less than five minutes, including the time she needed to throw something over him and settle the baby.

On a lighter note, miracles do happen sometimes. Maybe, just maybe, a classmate of Kyron’s saw something.

Snipped quote: During police interviews Sunday, a student said he last saw Kyron later that morning near the south entrance to the school. That was the last time the boy was seen, Staton said.

Still no trace of Kyron Horman as police, FBI conclude third day of search

Sheriff Dan Staton deemed interviews with parents and students "successful" in establishing a timeline for the disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Horman, but also said deputies were not as close to finding Horman as they had originally hoped. Interviews revealed Horman was last seen near his...

www.oregonlive.com

Which is an absurd question on its face. Kyron was in the truck with her - when she drove to school. Just more proof that polygraphs are bunk.

Yes. But was Kyron in the truck with her—when she left the school? Two very separate questions. The odds that a polygraph examiner would not have distinguished between the two are slim to none, in my opinion.

 

[ReadySet]

Which is why they should look at friends and family, yes. Not ignore other possibilities. Isabel Celis, Jacob Wetterling, Lindsey Baum were all abducted by complete strangers after all.



You're talking about an email that has never been proven to exist, never spoken of by LE, and the very existance of which makes no sense whatsoever.



Yes, Desiree obviously (and understandably) harbored a lot of resentment towards Terri. It doesn't have to be a conscious thing, but it certainly is something that can cloud your judgement and interpretation of statements and events, especially in a traumatic situation like this.



I also don't know what she said to the police, but she did say what made her think Terri was lying:



She was wrong about the stairway. And the "dropped Kyron off" bit is a good example of the bias I mention above.



I mean, that just goes to show how weak the case against Terri is. Kaine is putting most of his emphasis on the polygraph tests, which we know are unscientific and utterly useless in determining guilt or innocence. The rest is him reading into her words and behaviour. A lot of people genuinely believe that polygraphs are lie detectors, and when those fail, they get the erroneous belief that a person is lying.



Failing a polygraph isn't your own action. It's bad luck.



It's interesting that I just read a defense of the Perugia police for their hyperfocus on Amanda Knox, arguing that they still questioned other suspects and looked into other leads. Tunnel vision is not a black-or-white issue, but exists on a spectrum. It can make it easier to dismiss or disregard the other leads you get.

I don't know just how the MCSO worked, but what little info has seeped out has me less than impressed. And I do believe the results speak for themselves.



If so, I think it was highly irresponsible of Rebecca Morris to name the classmate in question. But it does come with problems of its own. For one, if the sighting was at 8:50, as Desiree claims in the Morris book, what on earth was the classmate doing in the parking lot? The bell had rung five minutes earlier, he should be in the classroom, shouldn't he?

And another, the classmate actually did speak to media on several occasions, including here:



But this kid supposedly saw Kyron leave with his stepmother an hour earlier.



Yet the other parent has rights too, don't they? If they have evidence she removed him from school (the hypothetical email, supposed witness sightings), then I doubt there was nothing they could do legally in regards to Kaine's parental rights. I could be wrong, of course, but I'll leave that to someone more versed in Oregonian criminal law.

But this again stumbles on the increasingly convoluted theories needed for Terri's guilt. If she told everyone and their mother at school that she was taking Kyron out of there (and an email confirming this takes it out of the realm of unlikely and into fantasy), why did she attempt to hide it from everyone outside the school? It's Schroedinger's Kidnapper - depending on the outcome we need to maintain belief in her guilt, she either attempted to hide her tracks or proclaimed her intentions loudly.

It just seems incredibly irrational to me.



Yes, someone saw a white truck on the access road. No evidence it was Terri's, but that's obviously what the police believed.



But as has been amply demonstrated with pictures, it would be just as visible from the parking lot entrance if the truck was at the shoulder of the road or a few yards up the access road. There's also the matter of the baby, who Terri carried with her all morning. Did she strap her in before killing Kyron, or after? Either way, it is an incredibly poor choice of place to commit a murder.



Which is an absurd question on its face. Kyron was in the truck with her - when she drove to school. Just more proof that polygraphs are bunk.

From Truth Prevail's post:
bbm
Snipped Quote:
13. Following Kyron’s disappearance, I began to have concerns that Respondent had done something with Kyron, and was not being truthful. Respondent failed the first polygraph test law enforcement gave her regarding Kyron’s disappearance. Respondent’s reaction and behavior after this test were highly unusual and suspect. I asked Respondent repeatedly for answers regarding her whereabouts on June 4, 2010 and Kyron’s location. During those conversations, she never expressly denied to me her involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, though she has subsequently denied her involvement to law enforcement. She did not answer my questions, and provided no explanations. Her story changed. She showed no emotion or concern for Kyron. She seemed only focused on her interests and problems with law enforcement. Respondent even stated “I am done cooperating” with law enforcement and expressed her desire to hire a criminal lawyer.

14. I questioned and probed her numerous times, asking her to tell me where she was on June 4th and what she knew about Kyron’s disappearance. Law enforcement requested a second polygraph within days after the first. She appeared for that test, but walked out in the middle of the test. Law enforcement requested a third test. Respondent resisted the test for approximately one week. She finally agreed and took the third polygraph test. She completed the third test and failed again.
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/petition.PDF

From Fergus McDuck's post
I mean, that just goes to show how weak the case against Terri is. Kaine is putting most of his emphasis on the polygraph tests, which we know are unscientific and utterly useless in determining guilt or innocence. The rest is him reading into her words and behaviour. A lot of people genuinely believe that polygraphs are lie detectors, and when those fail, they get the erroneous belief that a person is lying.


No, he puts most of the emphasis on his conversations with Terri. Kaine cites his questions and Terri's responses. In your comment you are minimizing the conversations and emphasizing the polygraphs.

 

[Truth Prevails]

If so, I think it was highly irresponsible of Rebecca Morris to name the classmate in question.

I overlooked this portion earlier, but hope it's alright to respond out of context. Sorry about any confusion.

Do you think it is also highly irresponsible of Terry to say Kyron was seen by the "school secretary" after she left? She makes the statement right near the end of the video at about the 4:53 minute mark.

After all, this woman would be a defense witness. At least a possible one. (As well as the unnamed child). Did anyone contact that witness? Even I know her name.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Yes, I’m talking about an email that Desiree Young, Kyron’s mother—a person who was regularly briefed by law enforcement in the early stages of Kyron’s disappearance—mentioned. Desiree’s veracity is not in doubt, in my opinion.

There was no email telling the school Kyron would be absent on June 4th. Even the Morris book dances around it:

At 10 a.m. Kyron was marked absent by his teacher, Miss Porter. The school office was told it was an excused absence. That’s because Terri had sent the teacher an email days before saying she was taking him to a doctor’s appointment. That’s why his backpack and jacket were left in the classroom. He wouldn’t be gone all day. Later, Terri said it was all a mistake. It was the following Friday Kyron had a doctor’s appointment. She insisted she had left Kyron at school.

Note the passive voice "was told" and no identified speaker. Who told the school office? Ms Porter? Was the bolded actual information from the police, or was it Ms Porter's erroneous belief based on memories of earlier conversations?

That email also created the benefaction of the huge 6-plus hour “window of opportunity”. The only people who would find “sense” in it, would be the people (or person) who needed the 6-plus hour “window of opportunity” to complete the evil deed. Which, in this case, was the seeming disappearance; the seeming vanishing, of a small and helpless 7-year-old boy. Kyron Richard Horman.

The problems with the Terri-did-it scenario that this alleged email solves just causes far more problems. Her removal of the child was concealed, no one saw her take Kyron, and she denied doing so from day one. Yet she also wrote an email telling the school she was taking Kyron out to delay discovery of his absence, actual text that could be shown to the police. You don't create alibis and then put your victim in them!

If the email existed, this is what would have happened. The police would have stated publically that Terri had taken Kyron out of school and called for anyone who saw them together in the truck to come forward. Yet their words and actions after the abductions show not that they know she took him, but that they suspect she took him and are trying to get evidence that she did. If that email existed, they wouldn't need to do that.

Oh, okay. Here you’re saying: “she did say what made her think Terri was lying” whereas earlier you said: “ … Desiree came to them the first night and said she believed Terri was involved”. (This was the statement I was responding to originally).

I did say that, and according to Desiree it's correct. Both statements are.

I was pointing out that no one knows what Desiree said to law enforcement the first night. Not by reading the Rebecca Morris book. But I guess we agree now.

Here's what's in the Morris book:

The sun was coming up as the couple prepared to leave the school. Desiree spoke up for what would be the first of many times.

She told the FBI agent she had reached a conclusion.

She knew who was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance.

Hard to interpret that as anything different than Desiree telling LE she believed Terri was the culprit. The thing I don't know is the reasons she gave LE. It could have been the ones specified earlier in the book (as quoted earlier). It could have been something else. We don't know.

I agree with Desiree about the stairway. Terri changed her story regarding where she was standing when she last saw Kyron at least two times (I think there was a third story, too); and, in my opinion, none of them are the truth.

Listen to what she says in this one video regarding where she was standing. Within moments of telling Dr. Phil she stood at the top of the stairs by the gym and watched him go to his door, she suddenly "agrees" with her location as shown on the original diagram that Dr. Phil is using for reference (which is in the hallway in front of the main stairs).

Yet she never says she came up those stairs, did she? She's always to my knowledge said she came up the stairs by the gym (as she does in the video). All she says about that position is that she last saw Kyron there. Coming up from a stairwell and walking a couple of meters to the stairs leading to the exit, waving goodbye, then walking out. Makes perfect sense to me, but to someone with a guilt-centric mindset and a hazy recollection of the school layout?

Also, from neither position would Kyron be hidden from view. Desiree tries to equivocate on this in the Morris book, but look at the map in the video. Where is the position from where the hallway to 213 can't be seen?

Regarding the "dropped Kyron off" statement, Desiree is right.

Right? Terri used a perfectly normal phrasing to say she drove Kyron to the school and left him there. This is what I mean about guilt-centric mindset. It simply bypasses the normal explanations (that it is a common and normal phrase to use) and immediately goes for the guilty one (she used a phrase that didn't convey all the minor details of what she did in the school, thus she tried to minimize her presence there).

 

[OddOneOut]

There was no email telling the school Kyron would be absent on June 4th. Even the Morris book dances around it:



Note the passive voice "was told" and no identified speaker. Who told the school office? Ms Porter? Was the bolded actual information from the police, or was it Ms Porter's erroneous belief based on memories of earlier conversations?



The problems with the Terri-did-it scenario that this alleged email solves just causes far more problems. Her removal of the child was concealed, no one saw her take Kyron, and she denied doing so from day one. Yet she also wrote an email telling the school she was taking Kyron out to delay discovery of his absence, actual text that could be shown to the police. You don't create alibis and then put your victim in them!

If the email existed, this is what would have happened. The police would have stated publically that Terri had taken Kyron out of school and called for anyone who saw them together in the truck to come forward. Yet their words and actions after the abductions show not that they know she took him, but that they suspect she took him and are trying to get evidence that she did. If that email existed, they wouldn't need to do that.



I did say that, and according to Desiree it's correct. Both statements are.



Here's what's in the Morris book:



Hard to interpret that as anything different than Desiree telling LE she believed Terri was the culprit. The thing I don't know is the reasons she gave LE. It could have been the ones specified earlier in the book (as quoted earlier). It could have been something else. We don't know.



Yet she never says she came up those stairs, did she? She's always to my knowledge said she came up the stairs by the gym (as she does in the video). All she says about that position is that she last saw Kyron there. Coming up from a stairwell and walking a couple of meters to the stairs leading to the exit, waving goodbye, then walking out. Makes perfect sense to me, but to someone with a guilt-centric mindset and a hazy recollection of the school layout?

Also, from neither position would Kyron be hidden from view. Desiree tries to equivocate on this in the Morris book, but look at the map in the video. Where is the position from where the hallway to 213 can't be seen?



Right? Terri used a perfectly normal phrasing to say she drove Kyron to the school and left him there. This is what I mean about guilt-centric mindset. It simply bypasses the normal explanations (that it is a common and normal phrase to use) and immediately goes for the guilty one (she used a phrase that didn't convey all the minor details of what she did in the school, thus she tried to minimize her presence there).

I agree completely.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Here are a few past statements by Tony and Desiree. It seems they basically agree with Kaine.

Snipped Quote:
It started when all four family members submitted to lie detector tests. Tony tells Dateline he noticed right away that something wasn't gelling for detectives because they asked Terri Horman to submit to a polygraph more than once.
Tony Young: I thought that something must not be right, something must not be allowing them to check her off their list.
Kate Snow: Isn't it possible, though, that she was just nervous, that she didn't pass her lie detector test with flying colors because she was emotional or upset or nervous?
Tony Young: There's more to it than just that. The information that you're giving, does it—does it hit your ear and sound right? Does it make sense?
Kate Snow: She wasn't making sense?
Tony Young: Not from the information I heard from her.

Which tells us nothing except that Tony too appears to believe polygraphs work, which is not something you want to hear from a detective.

A source close to the family says Terri complained the polygraph test made her feel like a criminal. Investigators, she said, were aggressive and tried to rattle her. Tony and Desiree say the biggest question marks revolved around Terri's whereabouts that morning that Kyron went missing.
Desiree Young: She couldn't explain to them for about two hours worth of time where she was or what she was doing. And there was something else that gave Desiree and Tony a sinking feeling that something wasn't right. They say Terri's cell phone records apparently didn't match up with where she said she was on the morning of Kyron's disappearance.
Tony Young: That to me is strike two. That's huge… There's starting to be some structural problems with what she's saying at that point. And then it continues to stack up.

Little Boy Lost

Kate Snow reports from inside the family circle of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman to bring viewers the latest developments in the case, and an emotional and candid interview with his biological parents, Kaine and Desiree. In addition, she speaks exclusively to Desiree and her husband, Tony, who...

www.nbcnews.com

And here's the funny thing - at the time, according to Desiree, the police believed phone records put Terri on Sauvie Island, but they later found out they were wrong about that. So any denial from Terri that she wasn't on Sauvie Island would be seen as a lie.

From the Morris book:

Law enforcement had originally believed that the cell phone tower that pinged on Terri’s phone served only Sauvie Island. They later learned that it served a much wider area[...]

Snipped Quote from my unofficial transcription:
Reporter: Right. She also says, well, she explains that she is deaf in one ear and that’s the reason why she essentially failed that first polygraph test. What’s your reaction to that?
Desiree: Well, I can’t believe that that would be a reason you would fail a polygraph. And not only that but then fail two others after that and walk out. So, I just have a hard time with that story. We haven’t heard that for five and a half years. Her story has always been that her timeline didn’t line up with the video surveillance and the eyewitness accounts. Her questions that she got asked were very direct and very clear. She also gave those back to us in the house after she had done the polygraph. So, I know that it lines up with what law enforcement is telling me; so, I know that she heard the questions.

Video: Desiree Young's response to Terri Horman's People interview

MEDFORD-- The mother of Kyron Horman is speaking out after the former stepmother of the boy shared her story for the first time with People magazine.Kyron disappeared from Skyline School in Portland over 5 years ago on June 4, 2010. Terri Horman says she t

ktvl.com

And here Desiree too appears to believe that failing a polygraph makes the answers to the questions lies. I don't even know what she means about "her timeline didn't line up". CCTV and witness statements confirmed most of her account.

LOL I bet you won’t be saying that when this case goes to trial and the polygraphs aren’t allowed as evidence because they would be too prejudicial to the defendant.

As previously said, a polygraph is a tool and a good one. That’s why those who are guilty but walk among us as innocent don’t care for them. (As well as still others who just like to support them, I guess).

Dunking women in water is a good tool to find witches too, and just as scientific as polygraphs.

Personally, rather than relying on unscientific methods and then try to imply that those who follow science and believe in civil rights just want to support criminals, I prefer relying on evidence. If the MCSO had done so, maybe they would have gotten some results after twelve years.

Well, yes, I suppose the child should have been in the classroom at that time but maybe he was running five minutes late that day. It happens.

Another quote from the Morris book:

Kyron’s stepmother took a photograph of him standing in front of his science project. He was seen by his friends Carson, Tanner, Kurtis, and Ellie, who were also in Miss Porter’s class. Terri also took a photo of Ellie with her turtle exhibit.

So Carson was inside the school before 8:45. My guess is that the sighting of the Terri, Kyron and the baby in the parking lot wasn't at 8:50, but earlier. Perhaps he saw them as they turned around to get something forgotten in the truck, like due library books? Or he saw them walking towards a white truck in the parking lot, thinking it was theirs? Maybe the police told Desiree 8:15 and she misheard that as 8:50?

This is the problem when the information doesn't come directly from LE.

I notice in your link he doesn’t specifically mention seeing Kyron in the parking lot. Perhaps he saw something unusual or something that frightened him in the parking lot at 8:50 am and that’s why he remembered and kept looking behind him to see if Kyron had returned, even hours later. Perhaps simply noticing Kyron walking in the parking lot beside Terri without his jacket made the sighting stick in his young mind. It’s hard to say. Sounds like he could be a good witness, though.

I don't doubt it, as long as he gets to speak for himself.

I doubt a few comments like that would spoil his credibility. I was referring to a one-on-one interview with the author or a media personality, which you seemed to be calling for in your earlier comments. Perhaps something he would receive payment for. Defense attorneys have fun with that type of interview.

IIRC, Desiree didn’t mention his last name in her book.

I find him much more credible than adorable little Tanner who was unconscionably paraded before the media by a friend of Terri’s but who hadn’t given Kyron another thought until he was watching the evening news with his father.

I find them both very credible, and I think putting their stories together tends to confirm my beliefs of what happened.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Nah. It’s simple. She took Kyron from school that day as she had every legal right to do. She had previously provided the teacher with the email for three reasons: 1) to excuse his absence; 2) so Desiree and Kaine would not be alerted by a phone call from the school reporting he was not present, and 3) to provide herself with the 6-plus hour window of opportunity she needed to complete and cover her evil deed. She didn’t bother with a formal goodbye knowing that fewer people who noticed them leaving would be fewer witnesses she would have to deal with later. Common sense.

Wait, so she told the school she was taking Kyron - in writing even! - and openly walked outside with him as was her right, but she also didn't say a formal goodbye because there'd be witnesses to her taking Kyron? These are two theories, two scenarios, two plans that just don't make sense together.

She is intelligent enough that she would have seen the risks, but perhaps she thought she could control them. Perhaps she misjudged the intensity of the investigation.

It's not a matter of risks. It's a matter of having two different plans in motion as well as creating two sets of witnesses, that the police would find out about within seconds and she had to have known that.

On the day a small boy “disappeared”, the sighting of any white truck, or any vehicle at all of any make, model, or color, in that timeframe, on the access road (where it is definitely out of sight) or possibly even on the shoulder of the road in front of the school, (where it's kind of out of sight) would be investigated.

It's not out of sight for anyone leaving the parking lot, and there were hundreds of parents there that morning - and the supposed murder would have happened just as most of them would leave.

Are you able to confirm Terri was carrying the baby that morning? No pressure for a link or anything. I’ve heard she usually used a stroller when at school but never saw any confirmation.

Doesn't really matter. It's another complication that makes it extremely irrational to attempt a murder out in public, in plain sight.

From the picture demonstration, I concluded the opposite. It’s a “private enough” place to commit a murder that wouldn’t have taken long when time was of the essence. We can’t see through a truck and the access road slightly curves making it a much better choice than the shoulder of the road. In June, the foliage would have been full. The grass and bushes taller.

We don't need to see through a truck. If it was parked as in the police images, both sides of it would be plainly visible from the entrance to the parking lot, where all the parents would be exiting.

View attachment 360266
Google Maps

View attachment 360267
Google Maps

Below are the photos from law enforcement showing the "generic" F250 parked on the access road for recreation purposes.
View attachment 360268
Detectives Seek Public Help in Kyron Horman Case - Salem-News.Com

On a lighter note, miracles do happen sometimes. Maybe, just maybe, a classmate of Kyron’s saw something.

Snipped quote: During police interviews Sunday, a student said he last saw Kyron later that morning near the south entrance to the school. That was the last time the boy was seen, Staton said.

Still no trace of Kyron Horman as police, FBI conclude third day of search

Sheriff Dan Staton deemed interviews with parents and students "successful" in establishing a timeline for the disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Horman, but also said deputies were not as close to finding Horman as they had originally hoped. Interviews revealed Horman was last seen near his...

www.oregonlive.com

Yes, and that's where I believe the mystery man led him outside.

 

[katydid23]

No, it's definitely the Terri-did-it scenarios that are contrived.

A and B only work in isolation, since the bioparents and the school are quite capable of talking to each other. I see no need for the F250; it might be needed for the science project, but it wouldn't be needed for Kyron.

See, now it gets contrived again. Only Kaine and Desiree are meant to believe Kyron was at the school, but the jacket and backpack were left there, so we have to come up with an excuse for them to have remained. And if she wanted the school to believe she took Kyron to an appointment, why bother avoiding a disturbance? They already know she's taking him!

Like signing him out? Which she didn't do? And which the school never bothered to confirm?

Do you actually believe an email exists? It just doesn't make the slightest amount of sense. If it did exist, Terri would have been indicted in 2010.

It's telling, I think, how words are used to paint normal actions as sinister. "Busy bee", "barely a second unaccounted for", "forcing an 18-month-old child to accompany her", "in and out of vehicles". Yet, there are plenty of parents who can testify to doing all of this on a perfectly normal day. About the worst thing you can say here is that Terri didn't procrastinate - and of course, not even that is true, since she stopped to chat with an acquaintance at one store, but then even that gets turned sinister by some.

As with the baby-soothing driving, the parking is also something that many parents, even in this forum have admitted to. Terri drove an unfamiliar car, bigger than her usual. So she parked further from the other parked cars to avoid scraping (or getting scraped by) other cars. Unless she worked as mall security, she would have no idea what the surveillance cameras saw or not. But even with the distant parking and the potential camera-shyness, it was a parking lot, and Terri left her truck alone and unattended. Being far from the store doesn't matter if other cars pass by on their way in and out of the lot, and anyone could spot a live Kyron in the truck.

Again, word choice. She "refused" to account for the time, except she actually did (as you say in your parenthesis).

Well, first, we don't know exactly what Terri told the police about her backroad driving, nor how detailed they wanted her to make it. Second, she signed in at the gym at 11:39. That the time is detailed to the minute should give that away. The only other such time is 9:12, and that was from a written receipt. Anywhere else it's 8:45, 9:30, 10:10, 11:20, etc.

It's not the only thing Desiree is wrong about. Generally, after having read the book, I don't think Desiree always understood what the police told her, or she was far to eager to interpret every shred of information from a guilt-centric perspective. This is the woman who went to the police the evening of Kyron's disappearance and told them she believed Terri was involved, based on faulty information.

Again, how could that have possibly happened if there was an email???

I'm happy you mentioned Ted Bundy's hobbies, since I very much believe that is what happened. A well-dressed adult entered the open and unmonitored school with the other guests, walking around calmly and confidently, acting as if he belonged, then asked a helpful young boy if he could help him get something from his car. Then drove far away with Kyron in his car, not caring one bit when the alarm was sounded.

And like Ted Bundy, they didn't know who he was and where he lived, and he had no reason to ever come back. Thus, there was no way of tracing his movements. Unlike Terri, he had all the time in the world to do what he wanted to, far away from any witnesses.

Would this be actual or alleged?

So, the backroad area where she said she was driving.

What would those bank transactions possibly be? And where does that information come from?

I would suggest the "area of interest" was that because she told them she was in the area and they were by then suffering from tunnel vision.

Or it's another case of Desiree fudging the truth in the Morris book.

The coffee was at the first Fred Meyer, the dry cleaners was at the second. Neither would require much in the way of driving.

But it would still be visible to anyone driving past, which they would do in the parking lot of a large store.

Which she would have had no time or place to actually do.

Going down the route of "sold" or "buyer" leaves us in the realm of fiction.

Yeah, but it should be plausible, I think. The scenarios needed for Terri to be guilty are incredibly contrived. She either has to kill Kyron in a public place, in full view of the road, the church and the entrance to the parking lot, or she has to have him alive in the truck at three public places, not to mention the road between them. She has to have made the bioparents believe Kyron was at school, but she also have to have the school believe he was with her (which doesn't make sense in itself - why would she concoct a story that explicitely puts her and Kyron together?).

I wouldn't call "in full view of a road and a church" "amazingly private".

The witnesses are attested to by Desiree alone. What I find fascinating is that she identifies those witnesses in the book, but neither her nor Morris appears to have actually talked to them.

No, it's perfectly explainable. She drove around with her daughter trying to get her to sleep in the truck. It's not something she can confirm, by the very nature of her locations, but she did explain it.

Think about it. Let's say you decide to go for a walk on a trail in a forested area, like thousands of people do daily. You take about an hour to do so, and during that time a murder occurs within walking distance of the forest. Now, you can say that you can't prove you were on the trail the whole time. That's valid. But you can't say that you "refuse to account for" it or that it is "unexplainable". People, including you and me, do things every day that can't be confirmed. It doesn't make them suspicious in and of itself.

Of course she thought that. Kyron was marked absent at 10. She left the school just before 9. It had to have happened between those times. And how was she to know when the school marked him as absent? They should have done that at 8:45. Given the sloppiness of the teacher, they may well have waited until the afternoon, so how was Terri to know how long she needed to make her alibi?

The polygraphs do not justify speculation - we might as well do a tarot reading. But law enforcement does seem to put weight on them, which just goes to show how unfit they were to handle this.

There won't be. The evidence was presented before a grand jury, and they didn't indict. When (hopefully not if) Kyron is found, she will likely join the ranks of Lindy Chamberlain, Joanne Lees, Timothy Da'Shaun Taylor, Faith Hedgepeth's roommate, Isabel Celis's father, Samantha Koenig's father, Jacob Wetterling's neighbour, Amanda Knox and many more who the public were convinced were guilty either by their behaviour or because LE said so, but were ultimately shown to be innocent.

It's telling that they haven't been able to get an indictment against her after twelve years. Getting an indictment is the easy part!

Why do we assume it was Terri's car? By the time those pictures were released, they had already asked the public to specifically look for Terri's car, not just any white car. Of course the public will think any white truck they saw that morning was Terri's. Not to mention this being before the groundskeeper came forward (and he also drove a white truck).

Or she was at the far end of the property working, like she was supposed to, from 11:30 to 13:00, not hearing the call for lunch. Also, if she was involved and had a burner phone, then moving in with Terri shortly after and getting new burner phones along with a third, innocent party would be extremely irrational.

Yeah, the reason being that they had nothing. Terri had a solid timeline with no room for an abduction that didn't involve parading Kyron through public places. Their sting operation had failed. They had no witnesses, no evidence.

Desperation is the reason.

But she did come forward. She did cooperate. She was interviewed by the police multiple times in 2010. The only thing she didn't do was take a polygraph (again, voodoo science, so good on her). She told them the truth, that she wasn't involved and didn't think Terri was. They claimed they didn't believe her. What was she supposed to do then?

She won't be charged, since they have no evidence against her. She never forced LE to do anything. She was summoned before the grand jury in 2010, but they didn't ask her anything. The police could have done that at any point until 2013, but chose not to. In 2013 she testified before the grand jury, and that was that. If you want to blame anyone, blame LE.

I doubt the FBI administered any polygraph. And in the year of 2010, the FBI certainly had no objections to female killers. But their profile in this case is more than likely a correct one.

"Yeah, but it should be plausible, I think. The scenarios needed for Terri to be guilty are incredibly contrived. She either has to kill Kyron in a public place, in full view of the road, the church and the entrance to the parking lot, or she has to have him alive in the truck at three public places, not to mention the road between them. She has to have made the bioparents believe Kyron was at school, but she also have to have the school believe he was with her (which doesn't make sense in itself - why would she concoct a story that explicitely puts her and Kyron together?).

I wouldn't call "in full view of a road and a church" "amazingly private"."

Not necessarily. I think that^^^ is making it seem more difficult and complicated than it would be. She could have easily given him something to knock him out, and hidden him in the truck. Then carried out her errands in public, collecting receipts and cctv footage.

 

[katydid23]

the cruelty is beyond anything I can grasp..such a tender age for a child. has there been a case (other than parental abduction) where a predator went inside a school to steal a child? I can't think of one can you?

I feel like she either beat him and strangled him or she drugged him and drove around until he stopped breathing
and then she put him somewhere maybe even somewhere she had prepared prior.

another Casey Anthony type of woman. hope she doesn't get off like Casey Anthony.

She reminds me of a slighter saner Leticia Stauch.