Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.06.17 - Closing Arguments - Day 2

[Nosey Parker]

It is not a video, it's a picture!!! Let's hear about the rap video.

I'm surprised he didn't address the rap video, only the witnesses. Best leave sleeping dogs lie?

 

[JPC]

IMHO, almost everything you post reflects what is best for, or alternatively, highest praise for, “Dell”. Can’t help but be astonished and wonder why. Though I gather the latter is your intent. Sure wish you would be more forthcoming with your reasoning. Otherwise it is difficult to believe that you are taking any of these tragic issues seriously.


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If you spend enough time on these boards you will come across posters whose sole purpose is to post opinions in order to bait members resulting in then getting attention. I find it is always best not to respond and they usually move along. If it becomes inflammatory the mods will take care of it.


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[CJPRINCESS]

It's rather rich of TD to try and discredit the witness testimony of the two young friends of MS and characterize them as unreliable drug users, when it is his own client who is a convicted murderer.

All MOO

I still don’t understand why both DM and MS’s past convictions can’t be mentioned here. They were tried and convicted and it’s now of public record.

The once case I was involved in against a woman beater, drug trafficker and had a conviction of assault causing bodily harm (he put guy in intensive care almost dead) the crowns opening stated all his past convictions.

I know MJW wasn’t on trial here but his convictions were stated at his introduction.

Or is this only based on case by case type thing?

 

[Bluepopsicle]

I'm surprised he didn't address the rap video, only the witnesses. Best leave sleeping dogs lie?

Right! This tweet fromLisa Hepfner is the only time I saw mention of the rap. I find that weird.


It comes down to a rap, Dungey says. Everyone says Mark raps. That's how he talks! Except Cronin. He didn't think #Smich was a rapper. "I have no idea where Cronin is coming from," Dungey says. #LauraBabcock

 

[Grey-St]

Kind of surprised Dungey went so hyperbolic in his closing. Think it hurts your presentation when you're declaring things absurd and crazy when they aren't.

Overall though I think he did what he wanted to do. Will be interested in the crowns approach.

I think he made some pretty ludicrous, thunderous statements. "They weren't incinerating LB, they were incinerating a DEER!"
Overall, he did okay. I predict the crown will do better though.

 

[JuneBug67]

It was an interesting closing. I keep having to remind myself that these arguments are not meant for somebody like me, but are tailored to both what a lawyer anticipates from the Crown and what he or she knows of the law, and therefore what will appear in the judges charge to the jury. A lawyer knows exactly what parts of a case have to be attacked or weakened to decrease or eliminate the chances of a conviction under the law.

I think that there is a very significant probability that the jury will find that the body of Laura Babcock was incinerated that night. So does Dungey going so far out on a limb about that reduce the impact of the rest of his arguments, which I largely thought were good? To a bit of a lesser extent the same question applies about the garbage/pet incineration stuff. If that is unbelievable to the jury, as it probably will be when they check the evidence against the arguments, does that make the whole thing ineffective? I was a bit surprised that he didn't try to handle the homemade incinerator when Smich appeared to be the only one who know they'd need to test it for bones and flesh when Shane still thought it was for garbage. I can't see the Crown not hammering that home.

 

[Grey-St]

It's rather rich of TD to try and discredit the witness testimony of the two young friends of MS and characterize them as unreliable drug users, when it is his own client who is a convicted murderer.

All MOO

True, and one who was a drug user who took the stand in the previous trial.

Overall, I don't agree with drug use being used to discredit someone. I feel badly for those young men.

 

[winter2017]

Dungey did what lawyers do attack the credibility of the witnesses and it was a gold mine in this case. I don't know if any witness did not have a shady past.
In the first trial Igor, the first man DM and MS lured to go on a test drive had no previous police record so his credibility could not be attacked.
This is what happens at trials and anything in the past of the person can be used against them to destroy credibility.
One of the reason sadly the police did not investigate Laura s disappearance because once they found out she did drugs and was in the sex trade, they knew if they did find a suspect that when it went to court , that her involvement in those things would be used against her and make bringing a conviction harder.
DM absolutely would know that and I am certain it is why he did not worry about ever being charged with her murder.

 

[MorningStar22]

I recall Abro saying it was the media that coined that motive? Did the Crown actually state that? It seems like an opportunistic thrill kill for both of them. That's what the crown said for TB despite the truck theft aspect of it.

I agree 100% with Abro. The crown did not present this as a love triangle; it is the media that grabbed and ran with that phrase. Dramatic and no doubt intended to increase page clicks.

I stand corrected! My memory was tainted by MSM I guess!! I could have sworn that was brought up and there was discussion here about how it was odd of the Crown to present a floppy motive when it wasn’t even necessary. But I went back to the CBC’s live blog on the first day and that isn’t explicitly stated.

 

[e3brown]

No it's not. It's quite possible.

Of opinion? I said IT'S POSSIBLE. Why do I think it's possible? Because there is no evidence of her passing. Is it likely she has passed? Absolutely. Is it definite? Absolutely not. Is it surely at the hands of Dell and Smich? Nope.Why hasn't she reappeared? People who want to vanish stay vanished..

Thank you for your explanation. I initially read the "it's quite possible" as a more positive statement than there is a possibility that Laura Babcock is alive. It was the quite that misled me.

 

[JuneBug67]

A discussion board is not a particularly natural medium in which to seek to be protected from opinions or paragraph lengths you don't like. Nobody has an inherent right not to be annoyed on the internet.

 

[canadiangirl]

I was one right beside you as well. We took some pretty hard hits in the TB case in regards to MS!

We both gave explanations of why we thought what we did. We got some good and bad feedback and moved on.

Btw, Night is mine, I only have a cell phone to type on. I have no use for a computer, so that was a lame excuse to why you post one liners and no explanation to your thinking. Maybe we’d lay off you a bit if you gave more constructive conversation, instead of trying to create conflict without any good constructive topic input.

MOO

Yes I remember! And I remember those who hit us lol
But this time around these people are still here and we are all still engaged in a respectful conversation. It's nice to discuss with familiar people.

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[canadiangirl]

I stand corrected! My memory was tainted by MSM I guess!! I could have sworn that was brought up and there was discussion here about how it was odd of the Crown to present a floppy motive when it wasn’t even necessary. But I went back to the CBC’s live blog on the first day and that isn’t explicitly stated.

Does anyone know where the Crown's opening is posted?

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[Night_is_Mine]

Of opinion? I said IT'S POSSIBLE. Why do I think it's possible? Because there is no evidence of her passing. Is it likely she has passed? Absolutely. Is it definite? Absolutely not. Is it surely at the hands of Dell and Smich? Nope.Why hasn't she reappeared? People who want to vanish stay vanished..

Thank you for your explanation. I initially read the "it's quite possible" as a more positive statement than there is a possibility that Laura Babcock is alive. It was the quite that misled me.

No worries

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Does anyone know where the Crown's opening is posted?

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Should be on page one, day one of the trials here.

 

[Jasper52]

Does anyone know where the Crown's opening is posted?

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The Crowns opening statements can be found here;

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...urder-Trial-10-23-17-Day-1-Opening-Statements

 

[mimimic]

Dungey again says the jury wouldn't convict a family member on evidence like this. "You just wouldn't do it. It's too weak, it's too frail."
by Adam Carter 12:22 PM

Dungey again says the presumption of innocence is on Smich.
by Adam Carter 12:23 PM

I wouldn't let him go on this evidence if the victim were my family member.

 

[brightii]

I still don’t understand why both DM and MS’s past convictions can’t be mentioned here. They were tried and convicted and it’s now of public record.

The once case I was involved in against a woman beater, drug trafficker and had a conviction of assault causing bodily harm (he put guy in intensive care almost dead) the crowns opening stated all his past convictions.

I know MJW wasn’t on trial here but his convictions were stated at his introduction.

Or is this only based on case by case type thing?

I truly believe that convicted murderers should lose the rights and privileges given to law-abiding citizens. DM and MS's criminal records should have been able to be mentioned IMO, but the law goes overboard IMO to protect the rights of the accused at the expense of the rights of the victim(s).

It is unfortunate too IMO that DM and MS can allege that LB is still alive which only adds to the misery of LB's family and exploits their vulnerabilities, as I imagine they have struggled (and perhaps still do) with accepting that these monsters killed their beloved daughter and sister, incinerated her remains, and then used her things among them without so much as a care in the world, IMO.

LB would definitely be in touch with her family and friends if she was alive, IMO. She would not willingly separate herself from every last person in her life of her own accord, IMO. If she had committed suicide or was murdered by someone else in other circumstances, it is extraordinary and IMO not reasonable to believe that her body would not have been discovered or that someone, somewhere would have information about her all these years later.

The case is based upon tons of circumstantial evidence and it is asking far too much of anyone to believe that all these things in totality add up to just a bunch of unfortunate coincidences for DM and MS, IMO. DM's own words in his letter to CN will, IMO, remove any reasonable doubt that LB is in fact dead and that DM and MS are her killers.

I know in my heart and my head agrees, that LB met her fate at the hands of DM and MS and after the closing today, the Crown will convince the jury too, I believe, and soon after convictions of M1 for both accused will follow as the natural and rightful conclusion to this case.

All MOO

 

[Grey-St]

I have to step away for the remainder of the afternoon, and will catch up later. Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for the thoughtful points and engaging discussions, as always. Thank you to those who post the tweets and live blog, your efforts do not go unnoticed or unappreciated! I look forward to reading all the posts when I return. :loveyou::loveyou::loveyou:

 

[Ashley96]

I remember both of you...but I honestly couldn't say I remember you for your pro MS position...just some good posts .

Yes I remember! And I remember those who hit us lol
But this time around these people are still here and we are all still engaged in a respectful conversation. It's nice to discuss with familiar people.

I'm looking forward to crown's closing argument...and justice for Laura!