Lawrence Schiller now believes the intruder theory!!!

[Britt]

I am a FIRM believer in Ramsey guilt, but my question is:
What is the most likely source of this DNA? (No matter how degraded).

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_1554639,00.html
DNA may not help Ramsey inquiry
Samples found on JonBenet's clothing may be from factory

 

[BBB167893]

"I started a thread couple days ago, to work on Ramsey innocence and make a case for an intruder. But in the interest of closed minds, it has gone down to the deepy dark belows, archival bound I guess."

God, I'm sick of that particular moral posture.

"The DNA is from an unknown Caucasian male. (Not a Ramsey)

I am a FIRM believer in Ramsey guilt, but my question is:
What is the most likely source of this DNA? (No matter how degraded)."

Henry Lee seems to think it was an inspector. You ever buy an article of clothing and find the tag that says "inspected by" so-and-so? And since other pairs of underwear from that bag had human DNA in them, I'd say it's likely.

Hi, Kim Ii. Unfortunately, the judge was ruling on the evidence that had been presented in that case, not the police evidence. The Ramseys stipulated to all of that and Darnay Hoffman didn't challenge it, even though he could have. PLUS, a lot of that evidence was finally accounted for in the months after the discovery process had ended, and the judge didn't know about that. None of them did. Ryan Ross over at www.crimemagazine.com can explain it better than I can. And if you go there, read the questions for Lin Wood and Alex Hunter. I found them highly interesting.

 

[Camper]

Guess SuperDave got his bee bee gun out and is gunning fer me, just a guess on my part.

Years ago, NedThanJohns, put his daughter in a suitcase the same sorta size as the one found in Ramseys basement that supposedly belonged to John Andrew. NTJ was trying to build a train of thought that the nonkidnappermurderer wasgonna take JonBenet away in the suitcase. NedThanJohns has not posted since mid year of 2005, donut know where he is hanging these days or he would do this test.

Well here is an experiment for those who are 'interested', find a six year old little girl and take her to the bathroom. She must be wearing long fancy velvet pants, which cling closer at the ankles, and have on a pair of oversized underpants.

Consensus by Camper: A six year old childs legs do NOT touch the floor while sitting on the throne, they DANGLE.
Additionally, often the underwear becomes entangled on the TOILET SEAT in the HURRY to get on the throne.

When the little girls are finished they frequently have to disengage their underwear from the toilet seat. This often causes tiny fingers with fingernails to come in contact with the top and the front underbottom of the toilet seat. IF IF the seat is divided a bit in the front, same story.

Since as Jayelles pointed out with source, that two nails on one hand and three nails on the other hand of JonBenet contained this unidentified DNA, and since my thought that her underwear would have caught at the crotch on the toilet seat, there you go, SAME DNA on panties and nails, exposure to the same source.

Also IF the girl child does not pull down her clothing FAR ENOUGH, it holds 'her' legs together and urine often will squirt between her legs and wash any toilet bowl DNA dirt/stuff onto her own panties and most likely directly into the seat of the panties.

Go for it SuperDave.

.

 

[BBB167893]

"Guess SuperDave got his bee bee gun out and is gunning fer me, just a guess on my part."

What's that supposed to mean? Why would I be gunning for you? I don't get it.

"Go for it SuperDave."

Go for what? You're not seriously suggesting that I ask someone if I can watch their six-year-old go to the bathroom? That might get a little scary.

 

[Jayelles]

It's been argued for years that the DNA could or could not have come from a visit to the loo.

RST argue that DNA doesn't exist in urine - or that if it does, it is in microscopic quantities due to skin cells pasing through in the urine.

However some peoples' urine has higher traces of DNA in it than others' and now we know from Tom Bennett that the DNA WAS microscopic. I wonder what the experts would say?

 

[BBB167893]

Don't we all?

 

[Camper]

"I started a thread couple days ago, to work on Ramsey innocence and make a case for an intruder. But in the interest of closed minds, it has gone down to the deepy dark belows, archival bound I guess."

SuperDave, "God, I'm sick of that particular moral posture".

SuperDave, you quoted me without saying so then cast aspersions that I have moral posture, particular or otherwise, well I sure hope that I do.

.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, FWIW, it was nothing personal. It could have been anyone, Camper. This case brings out my worst. Shall we forgive and forget?

But you didn't answer my question: just how am I supposed to do that little experiment? And before you ask, I am not NedthanJohns. I wish I were.

 

[Camper]

Your mission SuperDave, IF you choose to carry on, is to 'Find a mother who has a six year old little girl, and have the mother perform the duty in question, dress the tot in tight velvet pants, oversized underwear etc.' Have her take notes for you and report back to us. ie, where the underwear hits the toilet seat, and how the child retrieves her panties when getting off the pot.

I have a cute 5 year old tiny grandson, and IF he scoots back on the toilet, there is danger he would fall in entirely. Fortunately I have not had to do duty with him. He likes his privacy, and the occasion has never come up for me to do the duty for the double situation, ahem. He goes for the one thingie by himself.

Jayelles thank you for the urine DNA information. DNA from a bathroom seat, can be in the form of skin cells from the legs resting on the seat.

.

 

[BBB167893]

Okay. The question is, how do I find said person? Newspaper ads, or what?

 

[Jayelles]

Your mission SuperDave, IF you choose to carry on, is to 'Find a mother who has a six year old little girl, and have the mother perform the duty in question, dress the tot in tight velvet pants, oversized underwear etc.' Have her take notes for you and report back to us. ie, where the underwear hits the toilet seat, and how the child retrieves her panties when getting off the pot.

I have a cute 5 year old tiny grandson, and IF he scoots back on the toilet, there is danger he would fall in entirely. Fortunately I have not had to do duty with him. He likes his privacy, and the occasion has never come up for me to do the duty for the double situation, ahem. He goes for the one thingie by himself.

Jayelles thank you for the urine DNA information. DNA from a bathroom seat, can be in the form of skin cells from the legs resting on the seat.

.

Yes you are correct about the skin cells on the loo seat.

 

[Jayelles]

Okay. The question is, how do I find said person? Newspaper ads, or what?

No need, I have one right here. My six year old daughter is almost identical in height and weight to Jonbenet. When a six year old visits the toilet, she needs to push herself far enough back to get some balance and NOT fall down. This means that the crotch of her pants (underpants) is usually stretched across the front of the pan seat - even although she has pulled them down to her knees in order to get onto the seat in the first place.

I'm pretty sure children's knicker crotches are covered in microscopic foreign DNA. They don't often have the height or awareness or dexterity to remember to pull their clothes away from the toilet seat.

 

[Jayelles]

By the way, I am shortly going on a trip to New York and will purchase size 12 Bloomies when I am there.

I am taking advantage of the fact that our Tootsie is almost identical in size and weight to JonBenet at this moment and I am going to see what the oversized knickers would have looked like on JBR.

My Tootsie already has size 4-6 Bloomies which are the correct size for her just now. Ramsey supporters have argued that there wouldn't be THAT much difference in size, so I will do a proper experiment to see. I'm not sure how I am going to record this for decency's sake but what I might do is photograph the two sizes side by side for websleuthers to see. I'm also curious to see just how big the larger sized knickers would be on her.

 

[Camper]

Okay. The question is, how do I find said person? Newspaper ads, or what?

SD, visit a day care center tell them you are doing reseach. Jayelles has covered the topic nicely. But for further assurances, ask the same question of a day care center worker who supervises and cares for some 6 year olds.

As a matter of fact the thought that provoked my thinking on this particular topic was a catalog from Harriet Carter about 6 years ago. It was then that my personal lightbulb lit up.

AD showed a grown man, such as yourself most likely, sitting on the toilet with his pants gathering just below his immediate knee bone, his underwear was hanging there too, he was putting with a small golf club on a bathroom rug 'putting green', placed in front of the toidy bowl. The little fun rug was of course green as well. Hence putting green. IF a real man bought one of the rugs, I am guessing he would have other DNA on the inside back of his underwear, since it would ride directly on the edge of the seat front.

Can't fool a granny often SD, but keep trying.

Now then IF JonBenet hiked up to the seat a bit sideways, my theory takes on a more definite note. This awkward movement would have put the crotch most likely directly on top of one side of the toilet cover where it is divided.

.

 

[sissi]

The DNA could have come from anyone, anywhere along the line of the panty's production, packaging and shipping. The fact that it was minute and degraded suggests it had nothing to do with the night in question.

Go get your little CSI kit and test anything you want. Odds are it will have foreign DNA of unknown origin.

The fact that it was co-mingled with her blood does not suggest panty packaging. It was not found in other areas of the panties , only the areas containing Jonbenet's blood.
To suggest that during packaging, the only foreign dna deposited was found in the crotch of panties , is nearing it toward impossible.

 

[BBB167893]

We don't know that, sissi, especially since human DNA was found in other pairs.

Camper, it's so bizarre, it just might be fun!

 

[sissi]

No need, I have one right here. My six year old daughter is almost identical in height and weight to Jonbenet. When a six year old visits the toilet, she needs to push herself far enough back to get some balance and NOT fall down. This means that the crotch of her pants (underpants) is usually stretched across the front of the pan seat - even although she has pulled them down to her knees in order to get onto the seat in the first place.

I'm pretty sure children's knicker crotches are covered in microscopic foreign DNA. They don't often have the height or awareness or dexterity to remember to pull their clothes away from the toilet seat.

I have a household full of little kiddies, yes, when they are seated their panties often touch the bowl a few inches below the rim, but again, it's not the crotch part, it's the back ,outside portion up to and including the band. Again, this dna was found "only" co-mingled with Jonbenet's blood. The crime scene was a mess, I believe we should hold on to this ONE FACT.

 

[BBB167893]

Somehow, I doubt that your kiddies were wearing panties much too large. Even I can say that when a person drops their drawers, it can sometimes pull them inside out. Happens to me all the time.

And we don't know for sure that they were only in the blood spots, especially since the blood contained complete, live DNA, while this "mystery" sample did not.

 

[dingo]

This is a long shot but... JBR was also said to be riding her new bike Christmas morning..considering that we dont know when the pants where placed on her this could be another source of the DNA.

 

[Toltec]

I find it hard to believe JBR didn't have a bath Christmas day to go to the White's party.

Believe it....no bath. Patsy was also asked if JonBenet washed her hands...Patsy did not recall and said if JonBenet could get away with not washing her hands, she wouldn't.

Edited to add that on Christmas day, JonBenet played with her new jewelry making kit while sitting on the floor near Burkes bedroom door. Burke's male friends were in Burke's room playing Nintendo64. My guess is that Burke would not allow JonBenet in his room and with no female friends to play with, JonBenet played alone. Patsy said she did stop and play with JonBenet, making jewelry by Burke's doorway.

JonBenet, Daphne, John and Fleet made jewelry at the White home Christmas day. That is twice JonBenet played with jewelry making kits. Could the DNA come from those kits...or from the White's carpet??? Sure.

The facts are that the DNA could have come from anywhere. JonBenet did not bathe, wash her hands, usually had dirty nails so....