Lawrence Schiller now believes the intruder theory!!!

[UKGuy]

"Consistent" is as positive as it gets in fiber analysis (It can never be stated with certainty that a fiber originated from a particular garment... http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2000/deedric3.htm#Fiber Evidence: Assigning Significance)

Britt,

Well these Expert Witness types can still offer opinions as to how accurate the analysis is.

So does this mean John is linked strongly, I would guess his black wool shirt would have been beside his bed or wherever he undressed upstairs, or/and unless you wish to speculate about its removal down in the basement for other purposes?

I guess its not available to the Intruder for opportunistic use to wipe Jonbenet down?


.

 

[BBB167893]

"Steve Thomas in his book writes that fibers from the jacket Patsy had been wearing were found to be "chemically and microscopically consistent" which for me is stronger than simply being consistent."

That's what they mean, UKGuy. Also, there's spectral analysis.

"I guess its not available to the Intruder for opportunistic use to wipe Jonbenet down?"

That's my assertion. This guy went upstairs and stole their clothes? A bit far-fetched, eh?

 

[Britt]

And yes its black wool they sourced the manufacturer, expensive unusual shirt...

That's right, expensive black wool shirt made in Israel, according to the 2000 interviews.

so like Patsy's red jacket this links John to the crime-scene by a shirt he wore the night of Jonbenet's death.

I believe there were more dark fibers besides the shirt fibers (?)

John's shirt fibers were found on JB's underwear, per the 2000 interviews, no mention of them on her body.

But there were also "dark fibers" on her body, not necessarily the fibers from John's "black collared shirt" referenced in the interviews.

His shirt fibers link him to JonBenét (fibers she could've even transferred herself), though not necessarily to the crime scene in an incriminating way.

Patsy's fibers, on the other hand, were found in the garrote knot, the duct tape and the paint tote, specific crime scene items... way more incriminating IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

That's right, expensive black wool shirt made in Israel, according to the 2000 interviews.


I believe there were more dark fibers besides the shirt fibers (?)

John's shirt fibers were found on JB's underwear, per the 2000 interviews, no mention of them on her body.

But there were also "dark fibers" on her body, not necessarily the fibers from John's "black collared shirt" referenced in the interviews.

His shirt fibers link him to JonBenét (fibers she could've even transferred herself), though not necessarily to the crime scene in an incriminating way.

Patsy's fibers, on the other hand, were found in the garrote knot, the duct tape and the paint tote, specific crime scene items... way more incriminating IMO.

Britt,

There may have been others but ones described as dark fibers were found in her underwear and her vaginal area, and analysed as originating from the black wool shirt.

Also since John stated he never undressed JonBenet for bed, Patsy claimed she did this, then its difficult to see how those fibers could arrive at such a sensitive location on JonBenet's body?

So imo its just as serious as Patsy's fibers found at the crime-scene.


.

 

[UKGuy]

"Steve Thomas in his book writes that fibers from the jacket Patsy had been wearing were found to be "chemically and microscopically consistent" which for me is stronger than simply being consistent."

That's what they mean, UKGuy. Also, there's spectral analysis.

"I guess its not available to the Intruder for opportunistic use to wipe Jonbenet down?"

That's my assertion. This guy went upstairs and stole their clothes? A bit far-fetched, eh?

SuperDave,

Sure is far-fetched looks like John was either playing around with JonBenet and/or involved in the staging?


.

 

[Eagle1]

I didn't think of it myself, somebody could have used JR's black shirt to try to incriminate him with its fibers, just like someone leaving the dictionary open, dogeared to the word incest, but someone, ST I think, said this "evidence" was concocted later, AFTER the initial search. Isn't that the picture that he said fell out when he picked up the file? Everything else had evidently been paper clipped together, or maybe hole-punched, rubber band, or whoever they file things there.

Someone may have been trying to frame JAR, too, with the suitcase under the bsmt window containing his blanket, semen-stained, and the Dr. Seuss book, or, he may have just taken it down to wash his blanket and forgot it.

I'll have to look back for your other good point I wanted to comment on.

Yeah, SuperDave, it's a very confusing case. That's probably what we all like about it.

 

[Eagle1]

I don't claim to know the explanation, any more than anyone else does, just having a go at this. It's recreation or we wouldn't all be here.

Didn't PW also have a jacket like PR's?

And If there was an intruder, we know he was pretty bold. Maybe even went to the parents' closet and borrowed these items, maybe even remembered to return them afterwards, and to wipe prints off the flashlight, and a few other little staging duties just for some very wicked sadistic fun. PMPT has maps of the house in the back of the book, 3rd floor pretty large. I didn't notice where there closets were located, but maybe someone could get into them without waking the R's.

We still don't know what was in the duffle bag, which I suppose LE now have. Did he forget that when he left? And the rope under JAR's bed? Sounds like he could have been several different places during the evening.

I'd GUESS he's the one who went to Charlevoix and slept in JonBenet's bed. Some kind of identity theft game he may have been playing with himself. What a nut!

 

[Paradox]

Ya, what a nut.

 

[Britt]

There may have been others but ones described as dark fibers were found in her underwear and her vaginal area, and analysed as originating from the black wool shirt....

***
So imo its just as serious as Patsy's fibers found at the crime-scene.

Well if those were the only dark fibers and they were found extensively on JB's body as well as her clothing, then I agree it doesn't look good for John, though it still doesn't connect him to the items used in the staging and garrote strangulation.

 

[Britt]

Someone may have been trying to frame JAR, too, with the suitcase under the bsmt window containing his blanket, semen-stained, and the Dr. Seuss book...

I agree, Eagle, but the framer may've been Patsy. Or those items may've been potential props for some staging scenario.

 

[UKGuy]

Well if those were the only dark fibers and they were found extensively on JB's body as well as her clothing, then I agree it doesn't look good for John, though it still doesn't connect him to the items used in the staging and garrote strangulation.

Britt,

Sure, but if there were other separate fibers we would have heard about them from the RST a long time ago, just obsfucate matters.

it doesn't look good for John, though it still doesn't connect him to the items used in the staging and garrote strangulation.

No but it links him directly to the crime-scene, and helps confirm my speculation regarding more than one staging process.

.

 

[Eagle1]

..... The perp may've even done so deliberately to incriminate John and/or to force him into helping the perp with the cover-up and keep him involved in the cover-up indefinitely.

Here's a possible answer to the frequent question why would the R's cover up.

Others may be covering up too. One example, someone evidently put a snapshot into the evidence folder, which fell out when, I believe, ST picked up the folder or envelope, a snapshot of a dictionary open and dog-eared exactly to the word "incest". Someone correct me if I'm wrong about which picture fell out. Had to be someone who had access to the crime scene and also to the evidence packet at BPD.

 

[Eagle1]

You're right, UKGuy, that the wool shirt wouldn't be washable, unless some new type of treated wool which I've never heard of. I didn't remember that it was wool.

So, that leaves us with a perp-if-there-was-one stealthy trip up the straight ( not the circular) stairway to the parents' closet, separate and across the stairway opening from a door into their very large bedroom. See Appendix A, PMPT. Probably the door to the hall and stairway was closed.

If someone had gone up the circular stairway,it opens right into the parents' bedroom, and they'd have had to pass through there. He really did seem to know the house, if there was a he. Maybe the duffle bag tells us there was one. Is there any way to ask ST what was in it? He didn't include it in his book, not that I recall. But he may know, and might talk.

Looking at the floor plan in Schiller's book, seems like it would be very easy to get up there by means of the straight stairs w/out making any noticeable noise. Someone would have had to just turn right into an area that could be considered a hallwayand go through a bathroom, to their closet. There's another bathroom and two large dressing rooms, and at the other end of the 3rd floor,, directly off their bedroom, it looks like there's another, smaller closet, but it isn't marked closet. What else could that be?

The black shirt being WOOL gives us another possible motive for a perp if there was one, who may have noticed JR wearing it, maybe at the party on the 23rd or at the W's or Pasta Jay's on the 25th, may have been planning this crime and thinking it'd be very easy to get fibers from that shirt and PR's jacket. (Sounds like most likely it was the 25th?)

 

[Nuisanceposter]

You're right, UKGuy, that the wool shirt wouldn't be washable, unless some new type of treated wool which I've never heard of. I didn't remember that it was wool.

So, that leaves us with a perp-if-there-was-one stealthy trip up the straight ( not the circular) stairway to the parents' closet, separate and across the stairway opening from a door into their very large bedroom. See Appendix A, PMPT. Probably the door to the hall and stairway was closed.

If someone had gone up the circular stairway,it opens right into the parents' bedroom, and they'd have had to pass through there. He really did seem to know the house, if there was a he. Maybe the duffle bag tells us there was one. Is there any way to ask ST what was in it? He didn't include it in his book, not that I recall. But he may know, and might talk.

Looking at the floor plan in Schiller's book, seems like it would be very easy to get up there by means of the straight stairs w/out making any noticeable noise. Someone would have had to just turn right into an area that could be considered a hallwayand go through a bathroom, to their closet. There's another bathroom and two large dressing rooms, and at the other end of the 3rd floor,, directly off their bedroom, it looks like there's another, smaller closet, but it isn't marked closet. What else could that be?

The black shirt being WOOL gives us another possible motive for a perp if there was one, who may have noticed JR wearing it, maybe at the party on the 23rd or at the W's or Pasta Jay's on the 25th, may have been planning this crime and thinking it'd be very easy to get fibers from that shirt and PR's jacket. (Sounds like most likely it was the 25th?)

Or maybe the perp was one or more of the Rs. The most obvious answer!!!

Seriously - do non-RDIs sit around coming up with any and all situations that do not implicate the Rs no matter how insane or preposterous they sound?

It appears so. Double you tee eff.

 

[UKGuy]

That's right, expensive black wool shirt made in Israel, according to the 2000 interviews.


I believe there were more dark fibers besides the shirt fibers (?)

John's shirt fibers were found on JB's underwear, per the 2000 interviews, no mention of them on her body.

But there were also "dark fibers" on her body, not necessarily the fibers from John's "black collared shirt" referenced in the interviews.

His shirt fibers link him to JonBenét (fibers she could've even transferred herself), though not necessarily to the crime scene in an incriminating way.

Patsy's fibers, on the other hand, were found in the garrote knot, the duct tape and the paint tote, specific crime scene items... way more incriminating IMO.

Britt,
Here is a source for the fibers:

http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/30-1.html

Arndt also noted during the autopsy the presence of dark fibers and dark hair on the outside of JonBenet's shirt.

Meyer stated during his examination of the girl's vaginal and pubic areas that he observed numerous traces of dark fiber. That information was not included in Meyer's autopsy report. The Camera first reported on July 18 that investigators found navy blue pillings, or fuzzy balls, from cloth on the girl's lower body and that some police believed the pillings may have been from a dark-colored robe of John Ramsey's found on the floor of his home office.

It appears the color navy blue may be attributed wholly by the Camera Reporter?
Also:
http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/30-1.html

Also in the affidavit for the warrant, Byfield noted that Meyer noted red stains in the crotch area of JonBenet's panties that were consistent with blood. "Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth," he wrote. While not noted until the filing of the affidavit for the third search warrant on Dec. 29, Arndt also reportedly overheard Meyer say during the autopsy that the "victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina."

A CBI examiner issued a report indicating fibers from the pillow sham and comforter were found on JonBenet's shirt, on her vaginal area, on the duct tape from her hand, on the hand ligature and inside the body bag. So it looks like there is scope for multiple sources here.

.

 

[Eagle1]

Actually, we've been discussing BLACK fibers when actually it just says DARK ones, and even mentions NAVY blue. Where are we getting black?

"Meyer stated during his examination of the girl's vaginal and pubic areas that he observed numerous traces of dark fiber. That information was not included in Meyer's autopsy report. The Camera first reported on July 18 that investigators found navy blue pillings, or fuzzy balls, from cloth on the girl's lower body and that some police believed the pillings may have been from a dark-colored robe of John Ramsey's found on the floor of his home office.

It was also during the autopsy that Arndt used a florescent black light to see if there was any trace of semen or seminal fluid. While Arndt noted the possibility of such fluids on the girl's upper and inner right and left thighs, it later was determined no such fluids were on the girl's body."

So is there any actual source for BLACK fibers, from JR's wool shirt?

Also this link doesn't mention the fibers consistent with PR's and PW's plaid jacket. (I believe they both had one. Why? Had they bought them together? If so, I wouldn't want to start any unfounded rumors, but just wonder if the men would have matching shirts too. Silly question, I know.)

 

[BBB167893]

"So is there any actual source for BLACK fibers, from JR's wool shirt?"

Yep. From Patsy and John's interviews in August 2000. You might have to look hard, though.

"Also this link doesn't mention the fibers consistent with PR's and PW's plaid jacket. (I believe they both had one. Why? Had they bought them together? If so, I wouldn't want to start any unfounded rumors, but just wonder if the men would have matching shirts too. Silly question, I know.)"

Well, we don't know if Priscilla had one. Patsy claimed she did.

 

[Eagle1]

Was it in one of those interviews, SuperDave? Do you remember any other details, the context of PR saying PW had a matching jacket? I'm sure she didn't say why they bought matching jackets, or if it was coincidence, right?
If they did it on purpose for some reason, then obviously the husbands could have gone along with whatever game that may have been and could have bought matching shirts.

I don't think they were THAT close as friends, do you? Because didn't the R's go out to eat at Pasta Jay's before going to the Whites', Christmas Day?
(Maybe they knew there would be something like cracked crab instead of more traditional holiday food? I know, maybe that was traditional there. They say Boulder is rather different in a lot of ways. PW did a plate for JonBenet, but she probably didn't eat it, as no mention of it in her intestine has been made that I know of. (The greenish material?) This is still on the subject of why the matching jackets. Any ideas as to why?

 

[hollyjokers]

I don't want to start a new thread but when people refer to 'one rogue cop' are they talking about Steve Thomas or John Eller? From what I've read so far in PTPM (currently on pg 267), Eller is the one who set the tone of this investigation from the very beginning- no experience with homicides, refusing help from FBI, Denver PD, etc, suspending Mason for 'leaks', and your standard machismo BS, then Koby backing him up to save face. Yet I don't remember ever seeing his name before. I went in expecting it to be Arndt who f'd up from the get-go but seems to me Eller is the true rogue cop & possibly the main reason this case has not been solved. I will have to read Steve Thomas' book too, but so far it sounds like though he too had no previous homicide experience, he really did try to get justice for JonBenet.

 

[BBB167893]

"Was it in one of those interviews, SuperDave? Do you remember any other details, the context of PR saying PW had a matching jacket? I'm sure she didn't say why they bought matching jackets, or if it was coincidence, right? If they did it on purpose for some reason, then obviously the husbands could have gone along with whatever game that may have been and could have bought matching shirts."

Eagle1, your wish is my command!

From Patsy's '98 interview:

Patsy: Priscilla had a jacket like this...We both had jackets similar to that.

DeMuth: Did you buy them at the same time and place?

Patsy: No, I mean, I don't know...I really don't remember.

So, she says no first. Then obfuscates. So I don't think it's likely John and Fleet bought matching shirts there.

"I don't want to start a new thread but when people refer to 'one rogue cop' are they talking about Steve Thomas or John Eller? From what I've read so far in PTPM (currently on pg 267), Eller is the one who set the tone of this investigation from the very beginning- no experience with homicides, refusing help from FBI, Denver PD, etc, suspending Mason for 'leaks', and your standard machismo BS, then Koby backing him up to save face. Yet I don't remember ever seeing his name before. I went in expecting it to be Arndt who f'd up from the get-go but seems to me Eller is the true rogue cop & possibly the main reason this case has not been solved."

"Rogue cop" refers to Steve Thomas, hollyjokers. But "rogue" usually refers to someone who goes out on their own, completely hostile to the idea of playing on a team, and in that regard, Eller certainly fits the description, refusing anyone's help, "my-way-or-the-highway," etc. Now that I think of it, there's someone else who deserves that particular title too!

"I will have to read Steve Thomas' book too, but so far it sounds like though he too had no previous homicide experience, he really did try to get justice for JonBenet."

Yes, he did. True, he had no previous homicide experience, but what you don't hear his detractors mention is that he got a lot of good advice from people who DID! I can name a few for you.