Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[Littledeer]

rino:

snip..

but having to stand by a murderer was not in his makeup snip..

But he did....................

Still is, to this day.

IMO

 

[rashomon]

rino:

snip..

but having to stand by a murderer was not in his makeup snip..

But he did....................

Still is, to this day.

IMO

And I think he always will. I don't think he saw Patsy as a murderess though.

And there still exists the possibility that John himself was actively involved in the tragic events on that night. While the evidence of chronic sexual abuse was inconlusive, it could not be ruled out.
Suppose Patsy caught John molesting JonBenet, furiously yanked her away from him, and (either accidentally or on purpose) slammed her head againsst a hard, flat surface such as a wall. In that case, both John and Patsy would have had something to hide.
It would also explain why they did not take JonBenet to the hospital with some fabricated "child fell down the stairs" story. They may have feared the chronic abuse would be discovered.

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

And I think he always will. I don't think he saw Patsy as a murderess though.

And there still exists the possibility that John himself was actively involved in the tragic events on that night. While the evidence of chronic sexual abuse was inconlusive, it could not be ruled out.
Suppose Patsy caught John molesting JonBenet, furiously yanked her away from him, and (either accidentally or on purpose) slammed her head againsst a hard, flat surface such as a wall. In that case, both John and Patsy would have had something to hide.
It would also explain why they did not take JonBenet to the hospital with some fabricated "child fell down the stairs" story. They may have feared the chronic abuse would be discovered.

jmo

rashomon,
Denying JonBenet medical assistance means they both have something to hide, its that simple!


.

 

[Ames]

And I think he always will. I don't think he saw Patsy as a murderess though.

And there still exists the possibility that John himself was actively involved in the tragic events on that night. While the evidence of chronic sexual abuse was inconlusive, it could not be ruled out.
Suppose Patsy caught John molesting JonBenet, furiously yanked her away from him, and (either accidentally or on purpose) slammed her head againsst a hard, flat surface such as a wall. In that case, both John and Patsy would have had something to hide.
It would also explain why they did not take JonBenet to the hospital with some fabricated "child fell down the stairs" story. They may have feared the chronic abuse would be discovered.

jmo

That wouldn't explain the red turtleneck though....we all know that JB was wearing it when she was put in the bed that night...because Patsy said so...and then she changed her story. And then she cried when she was shown the picture of it balled up on the counter (wet??). I am still sticking to the bedwetting scenario. If they had of taken her to the ER with some sort of child fell down the stairs story, all it would take is an examination of her injurys and they would know that they were lying. Experts would be able to tell the difference in a fall down the stairs, and a push into a hard surface, or a hit from a hard object. How many people abuse their children...break their arm for example, and try to tell authorities that they "fell" from a chair, or down some stairs...only to have an expert say.."NO..this child has been seriously abused"? Alot of them... its on the news just about every single day.

 

[coloradokares]

The same could be said if the shoe was on the other foot too...if my husband had of accidently killed our child...he would either be rotting away in prison...or dead, one of the two, there would be NO WAY that I would help him...accident or not.

You got that right!!

 

[rashomon]

That wouldn't explain the red turtleneck though....we all know that JB was wearing it when she was put in the bed that night...because Patsy said so...and then she changed her story. And then she cried when she was shown the picture of it balled up on the counter (wet??). I am still sticking to the bedwetting scenario. If they had of taken her to the ER with some sort of child fell down the stairs story, all it would take is an examination of her injurys and they would know that they were lying. Experts would be able to tell the difference in a fall down the stairs, and a push into a hard surface, or a hit from a hard object. How many people abuse their children...break their arm for example, and try to tell authorities that they "fell" from a chair, or down some stairs...only to have an expert say.."NO..this child has been seriously abused"? Alot of them... its on the news just about every single day.

Ever since I began to study this case two years ago, I have kept wavering back and forth as to whether a (bed)wetting accident, JonBenet's refusal to go to bed, or maybe a far more sinister issue was the reason for the rage attack on her.
If a bedwetting accident triggered the rage attack on JonBenet, then why didnt Patsy change the wet sheet (the sheet collected as evidence contained creatinine)?

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

Ever since I began to study this case two years ago, I have kept wavering back and forth as to whether a (bed)wetting accident, JonBenet's refusal to go to bed, or maybe a far more sinister issue was the reason for the rage attack on her.
If a bedwetting accident triggered the rage attack on JonBenet, then why didnt Patsy change the wet sheet (the sheet collected as evidence contained creatinine)?

jmo

rashomon,

There were also other items, such as her urine-soiled longjohns, or the soiled pants lying on the bathroom floor, all indirect reference to toileting incidents, yet although the wine-cellar was staged and other evidence removed e.g. flashlight wiped clean, these items, which in the context of a bedwetting incident, become very relevant, were left in-situ.

Also were her size-6 underwear removed, was this because JonBenet had wet the bed, so why then leave her wearing urine-soaked size-12's?

imo this was not a homicide resulting from Toilet Rage, some other kind of rage could just have easily been the fatal trigger?

 

[DeeDee249]

Slamming her into a wall would never have made a hole like that in her skull. A skull could have been fractured that way, but not have a hole and and an 8-inch linear fracture put in it.
That kind of damage was a bludgeon-type injury. A hard slam into a hard edge- like a tub, sink, doorknob, faucet. Or a hard whack with a heavy flashlight, golf club, bat or the log grabber.

If the whole truth of this awful night were to ever be told, there will be so many layers to her death and coverup that everyone who has studied this case for so long will be shocked. It will be so simple and terrible at the same time.

 

[Ames]

Ever since I began to study this case two years ago, I have kept wavering back and forth as to whether a (bed)wetting accident, JonBenet's refusal to go to bed, or maybe a far more sinister issue was the reason for the rage attack on her.
If a bedwetting accident triggered the rage attack on JonBenet, then why didnt Patsy change the wet sheet (the sheet collected as evidence contained creatinine)?

jmo

Probably the same reason that she didn't remove the (I believe) wet red turtleneck. I think that she just ...

A.) Ran out of time
B.) Was freaking out and forgot about it
C.) Really and truly thought that the intruder scenario was going to work, (and it did) so in her mind, she had NO reason to remove anything that had to do with JB wetting the bed, that night....because to her, it wasn't important.
D.) Was more focused on writing the RN and staging the crime scene
E) All the above

 

[DeeDee249]

I have read about the red turtleneck in JBR's bathroom sink many times...but I don't recall whether it was soaking in water in the sink, lying wet in the sink, or (this is what I remember) balled up in the sink, not sure if that meant wet or dry.

 

[Ames]

I have read about the red turtleneck in JBR's bathroom sink many times...but I don't recall whether it was soaking in water in the sink, lying wet in the sink, or (this is what I remember) balled up in the sink, not sure if that meant wet or dry.

I don't know for sure if it was wet or dry, only that it was "balled up on the bathroom counter"...so to some posters...including myself, balled up means that it was wet, because if it had of been dry, it wouldn't have stayed in a balled up position. I believe that when JB wet the bed, her red turtleneck got wet also....Patsy flew into a rage and while viciously yanking the turtleneck off of JB, she accidently slammed her into the side of the tub, or the sink.....or maybe the toilet. She probably then just took the wet shirt and wadded it up and frantically threw it onto the bathroom counter, right before attending to JB. Steve Thomas believes that JB was wearing this shirt when she wet the bed also....and he knows more about this case then any of us do.

 

[DeeDee249]

Right- he knows a lot that has never been made public anywhere- not in a book, or website.
I'm amazed that things have not leaked out long before this.

 

[Ames]

Right- he knows a lot that has never been made public anywhere- not in a book, or website.
I'm amazed that things have not leaked out long before this.

Yeah, me too. And for him to actually quit his job over this case....says alot in my book.

 

[rashomon]

Slamming her into a wall would never have made a hole like that in her skull. A skull could have been fractured that way, but not have a hole and and an 8-inch linear fracture put in it.
That kind of damage was a bludgeon-type injury. A hard slam into a hard edge- like a tub, sink, doorknob, faucet. Or a hard whack with a heavy flashlight, golf club, bat or the log grabber.

If the whole truth of this awful night were to ever be told, there will be so many layers to her death and coverup that everyone who has studied this case for so long will be shocked. It will be so simple and terrible at the same time.

It was not necessariy a bludgeon-type injury. Recently on another forum, a poster mentioned another criminal case in which a little girl's head was slammed sideways against the wall by her stepfather, and this impact semi-punched-out a piece of her skull-bone, although it was a flat and even surface which the head struck.
IIRC, the hole in JonBenet's s skull was on a suture line, which probably also made this area weak enough to yield to the strong impact of the contact with her head to a hard and flat surface.
Whatever it was she was slammed against or struck with: it had to have been a blunt object, since a sharp edge or pointed object in all probability would have lacerated the skull.

jmo

 

[Lacy Wood]

I'd just like to note again here that a force other than a sudden blow may well be involved. One such as a foot standing on the head in which there was a small time interval, then a literal popping of the skull as it failed under the weight...and another scenario I've noted is of a garage door lacking the modern safety return feature that closed on her head producing the same effect.

[And I just saw this thread and read the Laurence Smith "Official Website" to see this:
Laurence Smith’s compelling and brilliant exposé of this infamous crime reflects his masterful understanding of the logic, forensics, and psychological factors that comprised the crime, enabling him to arrive at a definitive finding that is more than credible.
I'll reserve final judgment, but sounds like a blowhard to me.]

 

[Lacy Wood]

....The note, without a doubt written by PR, was staging within staging too. It was staged to look like it was a business associate with a grudge against JR and/or his company....
(....)

PR wrote the note, possibly with help from JB- he had read books and watched movies recently that suggested that this was a believeable note.

Thanks for the insightful opening for me to offer my variation on that staging theory which I don't think I've repeated here in over a year.

The "ransom" note was most likely written a day or so ahead, and not for the purpose that later developed. The original purpose was probably to create a fake kidnapping as a cover for sexual abuse, presumably by a family member, that PR feared would be visible to the family doctor. Other reasons for the note are possible, perhaps as simple as faking a failed kidnapping that could also be used as an excuse to go back to Georgia.

That precise plan to create a "failed" kidnapping, and the manner in which that "plan for a failed kidnapping" itself failed, are not really knowable except by admission of someone directly involved. But when it failed, resulting in serious injury to JonBenet, the note was already there as a prop. (True, a family member or close friend might have intervened to again abuse the child, inflicting an injury independent of the plan, and the note was used to cover that drastic development.)

The note is the key. It's oddities to me are only explained by a scenario like I have described. There's too much content that no one could come up with in the aftermath of his/her child's death, and it's obviously preposterous for an intruder to leave incriminating evidence behind if indeed there existed an intruder who would or could write such a note in the first place. It is as DeeDee249 suggests, the product of more than one person bandering around ideas and recollections of what a fairly convincing note might sound like, and not very skillfully done at that. But they never expected there to be a very thorough investigation as they expected to be out of Boulder with the "victim" that presumably John saved, as the police ponder that mysterious note, and the family's avoiding all contact "for safety's sake" in Georgia.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks for the insightful opening for me to offer my variation on that staging theory which I don't think I've repeated here in over a year.

The "ransom" note was most likely written a day or so ahead, and not for the purpose that later developed. The original purpose was probably to create a fake kidnapping as a cover for sexual abuse, presumably by a family member, that PR feared would be visible to the family doctor. Other reasons for the note are possible, perhaps as simple as faking a failed kidnapping that could also be used as an excuse to go back to Georgia.

That precise plan to create a "failed" kidnapping, and the manner in which that "plan for a failed kidnapping" itself failed, are not really knowable except by admission of someone directly involved. But when it failed, resulting in serious injury to JonBenet, the note was already there as a prop. (True, a family member or close friend might have intervened to again abuse the child, inflicting an injury independent of the plan, and the note was used to cover that drastic development.)

The note is the key. It's oddities to me are only explained by a scenario like I have described. There's too much content that no one could come up with in the aftermath of his/her child's death, and it's obviously preposterous for an intruder to leave incriminating evidence behind if indeed there existed an intruder who would or could write such a note in the first place. It is as DeeDee249 suggests, the product of more than one person bandering around ideas and recollections of what a fairly convincing note might sound like, and not very skillfully done at that. But they never expected there to be a very thorough investigation as they expected to be out of Boulder with the "victim" that presumably John saved, as the police ponder that mysterious note, and the family's avoiding all contact "for safety's sake" in Georgia.

Lacy Wood,

So you reckon someone had planned to kill JonBenet because of prior molestation? There was more than one note written, drafts with different addressee's were discovered. Also when Patsy appeared at the door to talk with Officer French she was wearing clothes she had worn the night before, including makeup, then John Ramsey joined Patsy at the door, minutes later Serageant Paul Reichenback would arrive at the scene, and John Ramsey would relate a sequence of events to both officers.

So the ransom note took time to author, Patsy did not fall out bed dressed complete with makeup, John arrives at the door with a version of events to tell, was he dressed too? Between making the 911 call and answering the door to Officer French, Patsy found time to phone some friends and ask them to come and visit! All this takes time, yet part of John Ramsey's version to the responding officers is that he had gone to JonBenet's room at 5:45 a.m. to awaken her for her flight to Michigan, and here he was at approximately 6:00 a.m. relating all of this to the officers?

I guess this version of events changed again, but the sense that there was an element of planning does not, even down to John Ramsey phoning his flight pilot that morning so to flee the state, so it is possible that JonBenet was intended to be killed that night, but that there was a last minute change of plans?

.

 

[rashomon]

Thanks for the insightful opening for me to offer my variation on that staging theory which I don't think I've repeated here in over a year.

The "ransom" note was most likely written a day or so ahead, and not for the purpose that later developed. The original purpose was probably to create a fake kidnapping as a cover for sexual abuse, presumably by a family member, that PR feared would be visible to the family doctor. Other reasons for the note are possible, perhaps as simple as faking a failed kidnapping that could also be used as an excuse to go back to Georgia.

That precise plan to create a "failed" kidnapping, and the manner in which that "plan for a failed kidnapping" itself failed, are not really knowable except by admission of someone directly involved. But when it failed, resulting in serious injury to JonBenet, the note was already there as a prop. (True, a family member or close friend might have intervened to again abuse the child, inflicting an injury independent of the plan, and the note was used to cover that drastic development.)

The note is the key. It's oddities to me are only explained by a scenario like I have described. There's too much content that no one could come up with in the aftermath of his/her child's death, and it's obviously preposterous for an intruder to leave incriminating evidence behind if indeed there existed an intruder who would or could write such a note in the first place. It is as DeeDee249 suggests, the product of more than one person bandering around ideas and recollections of what a fairly convincing note might sound like, and not very skillfully done at that. But they never expected there to be a very thorough investigation as they expected to be out of Boulder with the "victim" that presumably John saved, as the police ponder that mysterious note, and the family's avoiding all contact "for safety's sake" in Georgia.

Imo the ransom note is far too chaotic to have been written beforehand. The FBI CASKU experts' assessment was that the note was written after the deed and indicated panic.

jmo

 

[DeeDee249]

I also think the note was written after the death. I still think it was a double-staged note (a fake kidnap note staged to look like it was a business-related kidnapper trying to blame it on "foreign actvists").
It reads like nervous babble. When you go on and on with a ransom note- unprecedented as it is, it's like when you are offering an excuse for something and you mention not simply one excuse but a litany of everything and anything. It's like "doth protest too much".

 

[Ames]

It was not necessariy a bludgeon-type injury. Recently on another forum, a poster mentioned another criminal case in which a little girl's head was slammed sideways against the wall by her stepfather, and this impact semi-punched-out a piece of her skull-bone, although it was a flat and even surface which the head struck.
IIRC, the hole in JonBenet's s skull was on a suture line, which probably also made this area weak enough to yield to the strong impact of the contact with her head to a hard and flat surface.
Whatever it was she was slammed against or struck with: it had to have been a blunt object, since a sharp edge or pointed object in all probability would have lacerated the skull.

jmo

My...then four year old...daughter was running and fell into the sharp corner of the kitchen doorway, split her scalp so bad, that she had to have five staples. Her blonde hair was soaked with blood....it scared me to death!!!!