Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[Ames]

I also think the note was written after the death. I still think it was a double-staged note (a fake kidnap note staged to look like it was a business-related kidnapper trying to blame it on "foreign actvists").
It reads like nervous babble. When you go on and on with a ransom note- unprecedented as it is, it's like when you are offering an excuse for something and you mention not simply one excuse but a litany of everything and anything. It's like "doth protest too much".

Exactly...it provided WAY too much information and instructions for a ransom note.

 

[Solace]

I don't know for sure if it was wet or dry, only that it was "balled up on the bathroom counter"...so to some posters...including myself, balled up means that it was wet, because if it had of been dry, it wouldn't have stayed in a balled up position. I believe that when JB wet the bed, her red turtleneck got wet also....Patsy flew into a rage and while viciously yanking the turtleneck off of JB, she accidently slammed her into the side of the tub, or the sink.....or maybe the toilet. She probably then just took the wet shirt and wadded it up and frantically threw it onto the bathroom counter, right before attending to JB. Steve Thomas believes that JB was wearing this shirt when she wet the bed also....and he knows more about this case then any of us do.

AMES,

That is very very good that point about it staying balled up because it was "wet". And it dried that way. I am more convinced than ever that she was wearing that to bed and wet it when she wet the bed and in a rage patsy pulled it off her and could very easily have slammed Jb's head into the edge of the sink and JB could have at that moment fell to the floor and the ensuing 8 1/2 crack occurred.

GREAT POINT AMES. GREAT.

 

[Solace]

My...then four year old...daughter was running and fell into the sharp corner of the kitchen doorway, split her scalp so bad, that she had to have five staples. Her blonde hair was soaked with blood....it scared me to death!!!!

That must have been bad because my son split his scalp and there was lots of blood and required only 1 staple.

So this is all very very possible.

 

[Ames]

AMES,

That is very very good that point about it staying balled up because it was "wet". And it dried that way. I am more convinced than ever that she was wearing that to bed and wet it when she wet the bed and in a rage patsy pulled it off her and could very easily have slammed Jb's head into the edge of the sink and JB could have at that moment fell to the floor and the ensuing 8 1/2 crack occurred.

GREAT POINT AMES. GREAT.

Thanks Solace...
And you know...its not easy to get a turtleneck off of even YOURSELF...much less someone else, especially a child, because they are so stinking tight around the neck. So couldn't you just see Patsy, flying into a fit of rage, and trying to YANK it off of her....and in the process slams her head into the sink or side of the tub? I imagine that her head was STILL stuck in the inside out collar of the turtle neck when this happened (with Patsy yanking on the shirt part of it)....either that, or when Patsy went to viciously yank it off of her, she struggled with it (trying to remove it)...and when it finally DID come off, JB was flung into the side of the toilet or tub, and then of course lost her balance and fell. This scenario is as plain as day to me...

 

[Ames]

That must have been bad because my son split his scalp and there was lots of blood and required only 1 staple.

So this is all very very possible.

Yeah, it WAS bad. I couldn't tell how bad it was at first, because of the blood...but then I saw that long split, and I freaked out...and it was deep too. She learned a valuable lesson....do NOT run in the house.

 

[DeeDee249]

IF the turtleneck had been pulled up over her head but not completely off, the fabric could have been enough to prevent the impact from splitting the skin. And the whole chain of events- PR twisting the red turtleneck tight around JBR's throat, pulling it over JBR's head, slamming her HARD into a hard surface, the awful crack - did it make an sickening sound too? I bet it did. Then horror and panic as JBR slumped to the floor unconscious and dying....
oh, yeah, that scenario would definitely be enough to make PR cry when shown a photo of that red turtleneck.

 

[Ames]

IF the turtleneck had been pulled up over her head but not completely off, the fabric could have been enough to prevent the impact from splitting the skin. And the whole chain of events- PR twisting the red turtleneck tight around JBR's throat, pulling it over JBR's head, slamming her HARD into a hard surface, the awful crack - did it make an sickening sound too? I bet it did. Then horror and panic as JBR slumped to the floor unconscious and dying....
oh, yeah, that scenario would definitely be enough to make PR cry when shown a photo of that red turtleneck.

DeeDee...why aren't you at any New Years Partys?? We had to bow out this year, because of the baby...so, I thought that I would just check out the board to see if anything new had been posted.

I could just imagine that turtleneck being pulled from the bottom up, like you would remove any child's shirt...but it was done in such rage, that it trapped her arms and head inside the tight shirt (with her arms straight up in the air..still half inside the sleeves...and the collar of the turtleneck...inside out...covering her head and face)....maybe this is why she couldn't reach out and brace herself from her fall...maybe she couldn't see that she was about to be slammed into something, and maybe...even if she could have seen what was coming...she couldn't put out her arms to stop it.

 

[DeeDee249]

DH and I prefer to go out to dinner and then sit like two old farts (we're in out late 50s, so we're not THAT old) and watch Rockin' New Year's Eve on Hi-Def.
We've done done all kinds of New Year's celebrations. We've gone to Times Square (in our younger days- it's cold and annoying) as we don't live that far from NYC. We've gone to house parties. We've had parties. We've gone to big $200 a couple dinner-dances, and we've just gone to dinner, either with another couple or just the 2 of us.
Our town used to have a First Night, but that catered more to families with young kids. So we just stay home...warm and cozy, and eat potato chips and cheese from a spray can. Screw the ozone layer. It's much more important to have cheese in a spray can, don'tcha think?

 

[Ames]

DH and I prefer to go out to dinner and then sit like two old farts (we're in out late 50s, so we're not THAT old) and watch Rockin' New Year's Eve on Hi-Def.
We've done done all kinds of New Year's celebrations. We've gone to Times Square (in our younger days- it's cold and annoying) as we don't live that far from NYC. We've gone to house parties. We've had parties. We've gone to big $200 a couple dinner-dances, and we've just gone to dinner, either with another couple or just the 2 of us.
Our town used to have a First Night, but that catered more to families with young kids. So we just stay home...warm and cozy, and eat potato chips and cheese from a spray can. Screw the ozone layer. It's much more important to have cheese in a spray can, don'tcha think?

Oh yeah, definately...LOL (DH doesn't like to be on the road with the drunks, either... )

 

[coloradokares]

DH and I prefer to go out to dinner and then sit like two old farts (we're in out late 50s, so we're not THAT old) and watch Rockin' New Year's Eve on Hi-Def.
We've done done all kinds of New Year's celebrations. We've gone to Times Square (in our younger days- it's cold and annoying) as we don't live that far from NYC. We've gone to house parties. We've had parties. We've gone to big $200 a couple dinner-dances, and we've just gone to dinner, either with another couple or just the 2 of us.
Our town used to have a First Night, but that catered more to families with young kids. So we just stay home...warm and cozy, and eat potato chips and cheese from a spray can. Screw the ozone layer. It's much more important to have cheese in a spray can, don'tcha think?

There is nothing wrong with being in the late fiftes. Next year I will need to reevaluate. We have been there and done all that I vote for some Chai tea and a quiet eve. Happy New Year! CK

 

[DeeDee249]

Right. I like being 50-something. Actually, this is an enjoyable stage of life. Kid's out and married, settled in a career, baby grandson to enjoy. Just me, DH and our bratty Black Labrador.

Happy New Year to all of you out there tonight!

 

[Ames]

Right. I like being 50-something. Actually, this is an enjoyable stage of life. Kid's out and married, settled in a career, baby grandson to enjoy. Just me, DH and our bratty Black Labrador.

Happy New Year to all of you out there tonight!

Happy New Year to you too!!

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

Also were her size-6 underwear removed, was this because JonBenet had wet the bed, so why then leave her wearing urine-soaked size-12's?

imo this was not a homicide resulting from Toilet Rage, some other kind of rage could just have easily been the fatal trigger?

The longjohns in all probability were wet from-post mortem release, as well as the size 12 Bloomies.
Consider this: if these too big Bloomies were put on the body later for staging purposes and ended up wet, then it had to be from post-mortem urine release.
But I agree that some other kind of incident could have triggered the fatal rage attack.

 

[rashomon]

[Ames]:
I don't know for sure if it was wet or dry, only that it was "balled up on the bathroom counter"...so to some posters...including myself, balled up means that it was wet, because if it had of been dry, it wouldn't have stayed in a balled up position. I believe that when JB wet the bed, her red turtleneck got wet also....Patsy flew into a rage and while viciously yanking the turtleneck off of JB, she accidently slammed her into the side of the tub, or the sink.....or maybe the toilet. She probably then just took the wet shirt and wadded it up and frantically threw it onto the bathroom counter, right before attending to JB. Steve Thomas believes that JB was wearing this shirt when she wet the bed also....and he knows more about this case then any of us do.

Imo balled up doesn't necessarily mean the garment was wet. I often find balled up worn pullovers in my teenage daughter's bedroom which she just left there instead of throwing them in the clothes-hamper in our bathroom.
And if Steve Thomas was so sure that the turtleneck was related to a wetting accident, then why didn't he say in his book whether or not it was tested for urine? He interviewed Patsy too. Did he ask her about the turtleneck there?

It is obvious that Patsy did not wat to discuss the red turtleneck in her interview with Tom Haney, but tried to direct the attention away from it.
Maybe there was some other reason than a wetting accident why she grabbed JonBenet by this garment, slamming her against the wall or the bathtub?

Or did Patsy try to deflect Haney's attention away from the red turtleneck because she was afraid he might ask her why she changed her story, at first telling the police that she had put her daughter to bed in it, and then suddenly stating the child had been put to bed in the shirt she had been wearing to the Whites? Too bad Haney let this opportunity slide.

 

[UKGuy]

The longjohns in all probability were wet from-post mortem release, as well as the size 12 Bloomies.
Consider this: if these too big Bloomies were put on the body later for staging purposes and ended up wet, then it had to be from post-mortem urine release.
But I agree that some other kind of incident could have triggered the fatal rage attack.

rashomon,

The longjohns in all probability were wet from-post mortem release, as well as the size 12 Bloomies.

Possibly, but in the context of a bedwetting incident they may have been wet prior to her death?

Consider this: if these too big Bloomies were put on the body later for staging purposes and ended up wet, then it had to be from post-mortem urine release.

Not quite, we do not know how wet they were, were they wet by osmosis, e.g. direct contact with the already wet longjohns.

This is an important issue since it may suggest the redressing took place elsewhere?

I'm not disagreeing with you, simply itemising some alternative options.

The point I am seeking to make is why leave JonBenet wearing urine-soaked longjohns and size-12's, when the staging attempts to suggest an abduction from JonBenet's bed.

That is if bedwetting was the initial trigger and her size-6's were removed since they were part of the bedwetting incident, and they go to the trouble of staging a bedtime abduction to hide all of this, then there is post-mortem urine release, reinstating the very thing they are attempting to hide, why leave it, why not redress JonBenet again? Also there is no record stating that the blankets were wet from any post-mortem urine-release.


imo JonBenet was sexually assaulted then killed , her death may have been accidental e.g. resulting from falling from a height, or as a consequence of some kind of sexual rage?


.

 

[coloradokares]

Right. I like being 50-something. Actually, this is an enjoyable stage of life. Kid's out and married, settled in a career, baby grandson to enjoy. Just me, DH and our bratty Black Labrador.

Happy New Year to all of you out there tonight!

We are alot alike except I have two Shih Tzu.. That makes you the more intelligent between us :crazy:

 

[Albert18]

I think people are being too inflexible in considering what Steve Thomas meant by his toilet rage theory.

I don't think he is necessarily saying Patsy walked into JonBenet's room, saw she had wet the bed, flew into a rage and somehow inflicted the head injury.

I think what he is saying is that because of the bed-wetting problem, Patsy had JonBenet out of bed when they both should have been sleeping.

We don't know what actually caused the attack. Maybe JonBenet mouthed off to Patsy. Maybe JonBenet hit Patsy. The point is Patsy may NOT have connected bed-wetting to JonBenet's death because her wetting the bed may not have been what caused the actual attack, it may have only gotten her to the breaking point.

My guess is JonBenet was being difficult and that is what caused the actual attack.

It's like if you are yelling at your kid because he wrote on the wall and while being yelled at, he kicks you in the shins and you lose it. Being kicked is what actually caused you to lose it but you would never have been in that situation if it hadn't been for him writing on the wall, so the writing on the wall is the root cause of what happened.

 

[Ames]

Imo balled up doesn't necessarily mean the garment was wet. I often find balled up worn pullovers in my teenage daughter's bedroom which she just left there instead of throwing them in the clothes-hamper in our bathroom.
And if Steve Thomas was so sure that the turtleneck was related to a wetting accident, then why didn't he say in his book whether or not it was tested for urine? He interviewed Patsy too. Did he ask her about the turtleneck there?

It is obvious that Patsy did not wat to discuss the red turtleneck in her interview with Tom Haney, but tried to direct the attention away from it.
Maybe there was some other reason than a wetting accident why she grabbed JonBenet by this garment, slamming her against the wall or the bathtub?

Or did Patsy try to deflect Haney's attention away from the red turtleneck because she was afraid he might ask her why she changed her story, at first telling the police that she had put her daughter to bed in it, and then suddenly stating the child had been put to bed in the shirt she had been wearing to the Whites? Too bad Haney let this opportunity slide.

I guess that it depends on how tightly balled up the red turtleneck was. I believe that Patsy and not JB took off this red turtleneck, so WHY would PATSY ball it up in the first place?? Because it could have been wet, and possibly washed out?? Or maybe Patsy was in some sort of a hurry...for example...JB was wearing it when she was thrown into the side of the tub or toilet....and Patsy had attend to JB, so she just balled up the...IMO...wet turtleneck and threw it onto the counter. Yes, too bad that Haney let this opportunity slide.

 

[Ames]

I think people are being too inflexible in considering what Steve Thomas meant by his toilet rage theory.

I don't think he is necessarily saying Patsy walked into JonBenet's room, saw she had wet the bed, flew into a rage and somehow inflicted the head injury.

I think what he is saying is that because of the bed-wetting problem, Patsy had JonBenet out of bed when they both should have been sleeping.

We don't know what actually caused the attack. Maybe JonBenet mouthed off to Patsy. Maybe JonBenet hit Patsy. The point is Patsy may NOT have connected bed-wetting to JonBenet's death because her wetting the bed may not have been what caused the actual attack, it may have only gotten her to the breaking point.

My guess is JonBenet was being difficult and that is what caused the actual attack.

It's like if you are yelling at your kid because he wrote on the wall and while being yelled at, he kicks you in the shins and you lose it. Being kicked is what actually caused you to lose it but you would never have been in that situation if it hadn't been for him writing on the wall, so the writing on the wall is the root cause of what happened.

I see where you are coming from..and I have to agree with you on this. In other words...the bedwetting could have been the straw that broke the camel's back....so to speak.

 

[coloradokares]

I see where you are coming from..and I have to agree with you on this. In other words...the bedwetting could have been the straw that broke the camel's back....so to speak.

I dont believe that it was an isolated incident. I believe it was a combination of factors. I have mentioned them all before, along with LHP indicating this was not an isolated event.