Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[rashomon]

I guess that it depends on how tightly balled up the red turtleneck was. I believe that Patsy and not JB took off this red turtleneck, so WHY would PATSY ball it up in the first place?? Because it could have been wet, and possibly washed out?? Or maybe Patsy was in some sort of a hurry...for example...JB was wearing it when she was thrown into the side of the tub or toilet....and Patsy had attend to JB, so she just balled up the...IMO...wet turtleneck and threw it onto the counter. Yes, too bad that Haney let this opportunity slide.

It is somewhere in the back of my mind that Patsy said she and JonBenet had a tiff over what she should wear to the Whites'. Patsy wanted her to wear the red turtleneck, but JonBenet refused - maybe Patsy got angry, balled it up and threw it on the bathroom counter?
Or did Patsy invent this story to explain the garment's presence there?

Wearing a close-fitting turtleneck to bed is also somewhat unusual imo. So according to Patsy's initial story, she, after returning home from the Whites, undressed JonBenet, but instead of putting on her pajamas or nightgown, she put JonBenet in the red turtleneck she had refused to wear to the party some hours before.
I could understand a situation in which Patsy stripped off the white shirt and let her sleep in the turtleneck she was wearing underneath because she was so tired - but JonBenet did not wear the turtleneck under the white shirt at the party, Steve Thomas once said this in a chat room discussion.

It is all pretty confusing because Patsy could have lied about everything she told LE. So her initial story could have been a lie too, which she then changed into another lie. In the end, it seems her interviewers somehow couldn't see the forest for the trees anymore, and again Patsy profited from that.

 

[DeeDee249]

I thought Steve Thomas said JBR DID wear the red shirt to the White's party. I do recall PR mentioning that she & her daughter had a disagreement over the outfit, with JBR wanting to wear the white star Gap shirt with the black velvet pants and matching vest. Originally PR said she wanted JBR to wear a dress, and JBR would have none of that.
PR then allowed the black velvet pants (she was wearing a pair herself) and then wanted JBR to wear the red shirt because she herself was wearing a red sweater under the red/black/white fleece jacket (the fibers were found in the paint tote, under the tape from JBR's lips, and also tied into the garotte).
Either way, LE has seen the photos from the White's and so know for certain what shirt JBR was wearing that night.

 

[rashomon]

[DeeDee]:
I thought Steve Thomas said JBR DID wear the red shirt to the White's party.
I do recall PR mentioning that she & her daughter had a disagreement over the outfit, with JBR wanting to wear the white star Gap shirt with the black velvet pants and matching vest. Originally PR said she wanted JBR to wear a dress, and JBR would have none of that.
PR then allowed the black velvet pants (she was wearing a pair herself) and then wanted JBR to wear the red shirt because she herself was wearing a red sweater under the red/black/white fleece jacket (the fibers were found in the paint tote, under the tape from JBR's lips, and also tied into the garotte).
Either way, LE has seen the photos from the White's and so know for certain what shirt JBR was wearing that night.

LE has seen the photos, and ST was asked this question in a chat room in 2000. He said that JonBenet did not wear the red turtleneck to the party:

crimeADM: Was JonBenet definitely wearing the red turtleneck at the Whites' party?
stevethomas: no, she was wearing the white top in which her body was eventually found the next day.

http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/stchat.html

 

[Ames]

It is somewhere in the back of my mind that Patsy said she and JonBenet had a tiff over what she should wear to the Whites'. Patsy wanted her to wear the red turtleneck, but JonBenet refused - maybe Patsy got angry, balled it up and threw it on the bathroom counter?
Or did Patsy invent this story to explain the garment's presence there?

Wearing a close-fitting turtleneck to bed is also somewhat unusual imo. So according to Patsy's initial story, she, after returning home from the Whites, undressed JonBenet, but instead of putting on her pajamas or nightgown, she put JonBenet in the red turtleneck she had refused to wear to the party some hours before.
I could understand a situation in which Patsy stripped off the white shirt and let her sleep in the turtleneck she was wearing underneath because she was so tired - but JonBenet did not wear the turtleneck under the white shirt at the party, Steven Thomas once said this in a chat room discussion.

It is all pretty confusing because Patsy could have lied about everything she told LE. So her initial story could have been a lie too, which she then changed into another lie. In the end, it seems her interviewers somehow couldn't see the forest for the trees anymore, and again Patsy profited from that.

Yeah, Patsy talked about the argument with JB (about the turtleneck)....in her 1998 interview. If she had of "got angry, balled it up and threw it on the bathroom counter"...IMO..she would have said that. She had already said that she had wanted JB to wear it to the party, but JB didn't want to. When asked how it ended up on the bathroom counter...it makes sense for her to have said..."well, I put it there, after JB refused to wear it". Its her saying..."don't remember"...that I find odd.

She could have put it on her to save time the next morning, when they were going to be in a rush to get out the door for their trip, (I have actually done that before with my children...let them sleep in what they are going to wear on a trip the next morning to save time). Otherwise...I am with you...I couldn't imagine anyone putting a TURTLENECK on a child, for her to sleep in....it would be WAY to uncomfortable. I do believe that she slept in it....why would she say (orginally) that JB slept in it, if she hadn't? Unless, of course, she was confused. Maybe, since JB didn't want to wear it to the party, her mom said..."well, if you don't wear it to the party, I want you to wear it tomorrow for our trip...because I am going to be wearing the same thing in the morning that I have on now...and we could match!". Maybe she compromised with JB. Maybe JB agreed..and her mom said..."well, to save time in the morning..why don't you just sleep in it?" And JB said..."okay, I will do that, I just didn't want to wear it to the party, I wanted to wear my GAP shirt".


22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 18?
23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,
10 how's that sound? We will come back.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)13 (Recess taken.)
14 THOMAS HANEY: We are back on tape
15 and it's about 10:59 a.m.
16 And before we go back to the
17 photographs, on the break, there, we were
18 talking about a letter that you said that -- or
19 a card, whatever it was, that McReynolds sent.

 

[rashomon]

Yeah, Patsy talked about the argument with JB (about the turtleneck)....in her 1998 interview. If she had of "got angry, balled it up and threw it on the bathroom counter"...IMO..she would have said that. She had already said that she had wanted JB to wear it to the party, but JB didn't want to. When asked how it ended up on the bathroom counter...it makes sense for her to have said..."well, I put it there, after JB refused to wear it". Its her saying..."don't remember"...that I find odd.

She could have put it on her to save time the next morning, when they were going to be in a rush to get out the door for their trip, (I have actually done that before with my children...let them sleep in what they are going to wear on a trip the next morning to save time). Otherwise...I am with you...I couldn't imagine anyone putting a TURTLENECK on a child, for her to sleep in....it would be WAY to uncomfortable. I do believe that she slept in it....why would she say (orginally) that JB slept in it, if she hadn't? Unless, of course, she was confused. Maybe, since JB didn't want to wear it to the party, her mom said..."well, if you don't wear it to the party, I want you to wear it tomorrow for our trip...because I am going to be wearing the same thing in the morning that I have on now...and we could match!". Maybe she compromised with JB. Maybe JB agreed..and her mom said..."well, to save time in the morning..why don't you just sleep in it?" And JB said..."okay, I will do that, I just didn't want to wear it to the party, I wanted to wear my GAP shirt".


22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 18?
23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,
10 how's that sound? We will come back.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)13 (Recess taken.)
14 THOMAS HANEY: We are back on tape
15 and it's about 10:59 a.m.
16 And before we go back to the
17 photographs, on the break, there, we were
18 talking about a letter that you said that -- or
19 a card, whatever it was, that McReynolds sent.

Indeed that would make make sense, Ames, for Patsy to have told JonBenet to put on the turtleneck to save time in the morning and that it was also some sort of 'compromise' with her daughter ("OK, so you want to wear the white GAP shirt to the party. But then I want you to wear this red turtleneck tomorrow for the trip to Charlevoix." ).

 

[Ames]

Indeed that would make make sense, Ames, for Patsy to have told JonBenet to put on the turtleneck to save time in the morning and that it was also some sort of 'compromise' with her daughter ("OK, so you want to wear the white GAP shirt to the party. But then I want you to wear this red turtleneck tomorrow for the trip to Charlevoix." ).

Right! Considering Patsy was planning on wearing the same thing that she wore to the White's party....that morning for the trip..(or SO she says). She may have just wanted, for some weirdo, sick reason....for JB to match her...so that they could look like "twins".

 

[Solace]

Right! Considering Patsy was planning on wearing the same thing that she wore to the White's party....that morning for the trip..(or SO she says). She may have just wanted, for some weirdo, sick reason....for JB to match her...so that they could look like "twins".

She is soooooooooooooo guilty.

AMES, HOW IS THE BABY? And how does your other little girl like her?

 

[Ames]

She is soooooooooooooo guilty.

AMES, HOW IS THE BABY? And how does your other little girl like her?

She is doing just fine, and growing like a weed. Thanks for asking.... Did you see the pictures of her that I posted over at FFJ? I am going to put more on there, as soon as can get them downloaded. The 6 year old...Amber...just loves her! She thinks that she has to hold Summer's hand everytime I change a diaper. The 16 year old...Taylor...well, she would rather spend time with her iPod. I guess its just the age difference.

 

[Solace]

She is doing just fine, and growing like a weed. Thanks for asking.... Did you see the pictures of her that I posted over at FFJ? I am going to put more on there, as soon as can get them downloaded. The 6 year old...Amber...just loves her! She thinks that she has to hold Summer's hand everytime I change a diaper. The 16 year old...Taylor...well, she would rather spend time with her iPod. I guess its just the age difference.

I did not see the pictures. Where do I go? The Forum is doing cleanup work now. Once you direct me to where they are, I am on my way. Amber sounds adorable. I am dying to see her.

 

[Ames]

I did not see the pictures. Where do I go? The Forum is doing cleanup work now. Once you direct me to where they are, I am on my way. Amber sounds adorable. I am dying to see her.

Here ya go...

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8916&page=7&pp=12

Posts 73,74,79 and 114

 

[Ames]

Solace...
One of the posts on FFJ with a picture of my girls...is 144, not 114. I put the wrong number.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Solace...
One of the posts on FFJ with a picture of my girls...is 144, not 114. I put the wrong number.

I'm not Solace...but what beautiful girls, both of them! I LOVE the one of Amber kissing Summer. That picture says a thousand words. They're just gorgeous. Summer's little face and all that hair (mine had no hair other than wisps til they were 2) - I can almost smell that wonderful baby smell. And Amber looks so pleased to be sitting with Santa, with her hair styled so nice. Beautiful girls. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

Now I feel all gushy...I better go do something menial or I'll tear up.

 

[Ames]

I'm not Solace...but what beautiful girls, both of them! I LOVE the one of Amber kissing Summer. That picture says a thousand words. They're just gorgeous. Summer's little face and all that hair (mine had no hair other than wisps til they were 2) - I can almost smell that wonderful baby smell. And Amber looks so pleased to be sitting with Santa, with her hair styled so nice. Beautiful girls. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

Now I feel all gushy...I better go do something menial or I'll tear up.

AWWWWWWW...you are so sweet, NP. Thank you!! Yep, Amber sure loves her little sister, that is for sure. And you can tell that Summer just adores Amber. Summer does have tons of hair, although it is falling out, and coming back REALLY blonde...almost white. She looks just like Amber did at that age. Summer is a very good baby....she hardly ever cries, and she laughed out loud when she was TWO weeks old. The dr. could hardly believe it. She was asleep and smiling....I have heard that when they smile in their sleep...that they are seeing angels.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree.
I am also leaning away from a sexual assault with the paintbrush while she was alive.
I think the only way a staged assault combined with her thighs being wiped clean of blood and changed underwear is if PR had been too vigorous with her douching that night (possibly done in anger after JBR had soiled herself yet again after refusing to go to the toilet after arriving home from the White's, too sleepy to be cooperative.
She screams, and to both their horror, PR has gone too far, JBR is bleeding profusely. PR blames JBR for squirming around and being difficult, and repsonds by gtabbing her by the shirt collar, twisting it violently, as she shook her- slamming her into whatever caused that fracture- the tub, sink, faucet, doorknob. All of this takes place in just a few moments and then it's too late- she's gone (as far as PR sees).

We have never been certain exactly what was the nature of the cellulose/wood splinter that was found in JBR's vagina.
I feel it was a splinter from the paintbrush. Not from having the paintbrush itself inserted, but the splinter was on the gloved (or bare) finger of whoever was wiping her down, inserting a finger to wipe away blood inside as well as on her thighs; this was done after the paintbrush was snapped, so at this point she had already been strangled with the garrotte, done to hide the fact that it was the twisting of the shirt collar that had originally strangled her. Blood would still be liquid in her vaginal area, even if the heart had stopped pumping. Dead bodies may not "bleed" but blood can ooze. And it remains liquid for some time after death, and the autopsy noted semi-liquid and liquid blood in the vaginal area.

good post,it makes sense that she was wiped of blood and clean (albeit too large) underwear was put on her.And it said Wed.,in keeping w/ the same day.It appears the fact that pair had Wed.on them was of more importance to the stager than the overly large size.

 

[JMO8778]

What was it about Patsy anyway...that made men come running to her rescue everytime she "dropped her hanky"? I don't get MY way everytime I turn on the tears...and if I had of accidently killed our

..only thing I can offer up here is that mentally ill ppl are often extremely manipulative;she certainly had Smit fooled.Patsy had some pretty good bpd tendencies going on;one thing that comes to mind is the luncheon she spent $30,000 on,complete w. actors to play Rhett and Scarlet.IMO it was,at the least,hypomanic behavior.(If not totally manic,for that matter).

here's a good link on that:

http://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-excessive-spending.html

Now I wonder how the IDI's will try to save face on that one....'oh yes..it was a very important luncheon..it was imperative that Patsy spend that much to put on a good show !'

 

[JMO8778]

Only Patsy...can cry and make people believe what she wants them to believe....and get her way every single time. Why was that? She was nothing special...imo

I think Patsy had the art of manipulation down pat,in part from her ability to act,i.e.-I think she had the ability to remove herself from the situation and appear to be the person she was trying to portray down to a fine art.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I think not only did Patsy have subtle manipulation (especially of males) nailed down, but I also suspect she possessed a healthy amount of charisma and knew how to work that to charm people without being obvious about it.

Patsy's former friends from high school were quoted as saying that while Patsy wasn't exactly classically beautiful, her attitude and deportment and ambition, etc, made her popular with peers and adults as well as a pageant winner. That's charisma.

I think JonBenet herself was also blessed with natural charisma. Many people who knew her have said repeatedly that she was able to effortlessly draw people to her with her easy smile and outgoing personality. Look at all of us - we never met her, never knew her, yet we spend day after day thinking about her, talking about her, even changing the way we view Christmas to honor her. Ugh, my 9 year old son can pick out a picture of JonBenet at the drop of a hat because he sees pictures of her daily, either online or on the books next to the computer (that's okay, I'm a crime fan today because my mother used to talk about how freaked out the nation was by the Manson Family, and how she was scared of Charlie Starkweather back when he went on his spree.)

I don't know how people can hear about the $30,000 GWTW Atlanta office luncheon and the over-the-top pageant costumes for a 5 year old girl and then claim that Patsy didn't write that rambling and miserably overdone ransom note. Only she can't be excluded as author out of everyone, and it's nothing but consistent with who Patsy was and the way she did things.

 

[rashomon]

[DeeDee249]:
I agree.
I am also leaning away from a sexual assault with the paintbrush while she was alive.
I think the only way a staged assault combined with her thighs being wiped clean of blood and changed underwear is if PR had been too vigorous with her douching that night (possibly done in anger after JBR had soiled herself yet again after refusing to go to the toilet after arriving home from the White's, too sleepy to be cooperative.
She screams, and to both their horror, PR has gone too far, JBR is bleeding profusely. PR blames JBR for squirming around and being difficult, and repsonds by gtabbing her by the shirt collar, twisting it violently, as she shook her- slamming her into whatever caused that fracture- the tub, sink, faucet, doorknob. All of this takes place in just a few moments and then it's too late- she's gone (as far as PR sees).

We have never been certain exactly what was the nature of the cellulose/wood splinter that was found in JBR's vagina.
I feel it was a splinter from the paintbrush. Not from having the paintbrush itself inserted, but the splinter was on the gloved (or bare) finger of whoever was wiping her down, inserting a finger to wipe away blood inside as well as on her thighs; this was done after the paintbrush was snapped, so at this point she had already been strangled with the garrotte, done to hide the fact that it was the twisting of the shirt collar that had originally strangled her. Blood would still be liquid in her vaginal area, even if the heart had stopped pumping. Dead bodies may not "bleed" but blood can ooze. And it remains liquid for some time after death, and the autopsy noted semi-liquid and liquid blood in the vaginal area.

[JMO8778]:
good post,it makes sense that she was wiped of blood and clean (albeit too large) underwear was put on her.And it said Wed.,in keeping w/ the same day.It appears the fact that pair had Wed.on them was of more importance to the stager than the overly large size.

Good post from DeeDee which would explain yet another element of the crime scene which I have been racking my brain about for a long time, and on which posters like e. g. UKGuy have challenged those of us who do NOT believe that sexual abuse played a role in this case. I myself 'm keep wavering back and and forth on this issue.
He asked the (valid imo) question why, if a sexual assault was to be staged, JonBenet had been wiped down at all? Why bother to wipe off blood if the stager of the scene wanted to make it look like a sexual assault? Why not leave the blood there after inflicting the genital injury?
Why wipe her and redress her in fresh underwear and longjohns? But DeeDee's scenario would explain it imo.
For if Patsy accidentally inflicted this injury by aggressively cleaning JonBenet's genital area, then wiping off the blood could have been done to hide Patsy's 'cleaning attack' on JonBenet in this area.

 

[JMO8778]

I think JonBenet herself was also blessed with natural charisma. Many people who knew her have said repeatedly that she was able to effortlessly draw people to her with her easy smile and outgoing personality. Look at all of us - we never met her, never knew her, yet we spend day after day thinking about her, talking about her, even changing the way we view Christmas to honor her.

absolutely.and she had the kind of down-to-earth charisma that Patsy didn't possess,IMO.very admirable.

I don't know how people can hear about the $30,000 GWTW Atlanta office luncheon and the over-the-top pageant costumes for a 5 year old girl and then claim that Patsy didn't write that rambling and miserably overdone ransom note. Only she can't be excluded as author out of everyone, and it's nothing but consistent with who Patsy was and the way she did things.

right on,it was her style of doing things,exactly.

 

[Solace]

Off the subject, but what does RST stand for? Thanks.