Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[kelly london]

if JBR was wiped down, what was used? a washcloth? where is it?

 

[UKGuy]

if JBR was wiped down, what was used? a washcloth? where is it?

kelly london,
Good question.

I guess it has many answers depending on you favorite theory. Possibly JonBenet was wiped down with her size-6 underwear, on which no report of day-of-the-week underwear found in JonBenet's underwear drawer has been made public e.g. is the Wednesday pair missing?

Or was she wearing no underwear being the victim of a sexual assault gone wrong, and so was wiped down with whatever came to hand, which may have later been washed out either by hand or washing machine?

Else she was wiped down with swabs or cotton buds etc, or some instrument designed to effect a cleansing effect e.g. douching. Here the person doing the wiping down may have a compulsion to clean the genital area, it could form part of a ritual reflecting a religious belief or simply be a genital cleansing fetish which has been projected onto JonBenet?

That she was wearing no underwear is the simplest answer and is consistent with the forensic evidence.

If she was wearing underwear, other than the size-12's, not only is this missing, but so is the end piece of the paintbrush used to construct the garrote.

Which may suggest the bleeding is associated with the missing piece of paintbrush?



.

 

[UKGuy]

The wiping down of significant blood from JBR's pubic area and thighs AND the fact that some drops of blood oozed onto the clean panties (unknown to those whoever dressed her in those panties) are NOT mutually exclusive. They could certainly have happened independently of each other. Finding evidence of one does not exclude the possibilty of the other. Actually, the few drops of blood on the panties DO suggest that she had been wiped down in and of itself, IMHO. So little blood on the panties when there was still some liquid and semi-liquid blood inside the vagina suggest that there would have been much MORE blood on the panties if 1. they had been the original panties she was wearing when she got home from the White's and 2. if she had not been wiped down.

DeeDee249,
I agree they need not be mutually exclusive, just if you wish to include them in a theory then they should be consistent with the published evidence, and not simply conform to some particular sequence of events?


.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Of course this is possible but it does not preclude JonBenet from being wiped down does it, or is this possibility disallowed in your current theory?

No, it is not disallowed. I believe she was wiped down first and then the oversized panties were put on her. Since they were way too large for a girl of her age, it is hard to believe she would have worn them to the Whites' Christmas party. Imo the stager of the scene took this 'Wednesday' pair out from the fresh package (the rest of the set was not found in the house search, another red flag) and put it on the body.

I tend to agree with you here, but things may not have occurred as per your favorite theory, are you also a douching devotee these days?

I'm not a 'douching devotee'.
JonBenet's vagina was chronically inflamed, and imo an injury could easily have been inflicted by aggressive cleaning (sans douching) which caused the already irritated mucosal tissue to bleed.

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

would you give us a breakdown on what you think happened, as far as the staging goes ?

JMO8778,

OK a few preliminary remarks. You suggest the stager was in a state of panic and confusion, this state of mind is used to explain away inconsistencies in some popular theories, but when you consider that the person who did the wine-cellar staging and wrote the ransom note may be the same person then panic and confusion are not at the top of my list for describing their state of mind?


Largely forgotten and neglected are the blankets used to wrap JonBenet. Where did they come from, and do they form part of the staging or are they merely incidental, a post-mortem token of parental affection? I reckon its the former, the stager knew JonBenet's longjohns were urine-soaked, and certainly knew she had been bleeding vaginally thus staining the size-12's, how so? For the same reason Coroner Meyer concluded she had been wiped down. So in an attempt to wrong-foot whomever discovered JonBenet, she was wrapped in not one , but two white blankets, thereby hiding any further post-mortem bleeding.

So in effect JonBenet's person became staged to hide some other crime. What of her location the wine-cellar, consider if nothing was changed and she had been discovered in her bedroom wrapped in blankets, mouth duct-taped, wrists restrained, and a garrote around her neck. Patently this could not become an abduction gone wrong, since the abductor had journeyed down to the basement and back again for a paintbrush.

You have a dead body in the house, what can you do?

1. Stage some kind of crime to explain away her death.
2. Remove her body from the house.

Option 1. is particularly difficult since it implicates the residents as the main suspects, option 2. solves both problems e.g. it potentially removes suspicion and explains away her death?

I reckon JonBenet was originally intended to be dumped outside her house, even if it was only 20 feet from their front door or the backyard, simply enough to suggest an intruder did it?

So someone broke the window in the basement, placed the suitcase against the wall, maybe it originally contained some household valuables, who knows. The ransom note was intended to offer a rationale for her being found outdoors.

This I reckon is the general outline of Plan A which may include further elements from the basement that I have forgotton.

What is missing from Plan A is potentially the garrote, this appears for some unknown reason in Plan B.

Plan B is easily recognizable to most Ramsey Sleuths since it is the Wine-Cellar staging but it appears it is only at this stage was the garrote added.

Also it is probable that its at this point that JonBenet's post-mortem urine-release is noticed, further investigation shows continued vaginal bleeding which is quickly wiped clean, to prevent it seeping through to the longjohns, possibly its at this stage the blankets are added just to make sure nothing can be seen untoward in this region?

Alternately in conjunction with garroting JonBenet outside the wine-cellar door, she was further vaginally assaulted with the remaining piece of the paintbrush, all to create the signs of a viscious, sadistic sexual assault, leaving the piece of paintbrush handle inside JonBenet? The other elements were then added e.g. wrist restraints, tape on her mouth etc.

All these latter elements would not have been included in Plan A!


So after cleaning up her body, Plan A has JonBenet dressed in those size-12's , the longjohns, and her white gap top, and the intention is to simply dump her outdoors, the victim of an intruder abduction, along with creating a path of entry and escape for the intruder.

For some unknown reason Plan A is abandonded, and I do not think it was because of the snow, then at a late stage, Plan B is decided upon and implemented.

So although some of my details are likely to be incorrect I am confident that JonBenet's death has at least two main constituents as its elements of staging.

I reckon both parents played a role in the final staging and that one or both were present when JonBenet was killed!


.

 

[UKGuy]

No, it is not disallowed. I believe she was wiped down first and then the oversized panties were put on her. Since they were way too large for a girl of her age, it is hard to believe she would have worn them to the Whites' Christmas party. Imo the stager of the scene took this 'Wednesday' pair out from the fresh package (the rest of the set was not found in the house search, another red flag) and put it on the body.
I'm not a 'douching devotee'.
JonBenet's vagina was chronically inflamed, and imo an injury could easily have been inflicted by aggressive cleaning (sans douching) which caused the already irritated mucosal tissue to bleed.

jmo

rashomon,

I believe she was wiped down first and then the oversized panties were put on her. Since they were way too large for a girl of her age, it is hard to believe she would have worn them to the Whites' Christmas party.

I agree, and it may have been a male who chose the size-12's making sure he got the day-of-the-week correct?

Imo the stager of the scene took this 'Wednesday' pair out from the fresh package (the rest of the set was not found in the house search, another red flag) and put it on the body.

We do not know if her size-6 'Wednesday' pair were missing either, that no information on this topic has been made public is I reckon significant?

JonBenet's vagina was chronically inflamed, and imo an injury could easily have been inflicted by aggressive cleaning (sans douching) which caused the already irritated mucosal tissue to bleed.

Possibly, had it occurred before, were any old blood-stains discovered on JonBenet's remaining size-6 underwear? Why would anyone be aggressively cleaning JonBenet's vaginal entrance, what has that to do with bedwetting or fecal soiling?

Anyway for whatever reason at a later stage, long after JonBenet had been redressed in the size-12's someone removed them and wiped JonBenet down, as per Coroner Meyer's observations.

.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

OK a few preliminary remarks. You suggest the stager was in a state of panic and confusion, this state of mind is used to explain away inconsistencies in some popular theories, but when you consider that the person who did the wine-cellar staging and wrote the ransom note may be the same person then panic and confusion are not at the top of my list for describing their state of mind?

good point,but if it's not confusion,then why wipe her down after the underwear was applied? Surely someone in their right state of mind (or I think at least JR would have known better,from his crime readings) would know that having blood on the underwear but yet wiping her down wouldn't leave any corresponding blood stains on the body,and an intruder likely wouldn't bother to do this.what would he care if she's bleeding or not?

Largely forgotten and neglected are the blankets used to wrap JonBenet. Where did they come from, and do they form part of the staging or are they merely incidental, a post-mortem token of parental affection? I reckon its the former, the stager knew JonBenet's longjohns were urine-soaked, and certainly knew she had been bleeding vaginally thus staining the size-12's, how so? For the same reason Coroner Meyer concluded she had been wiped down. So in an attempt to wrong-foot whomever discovered JonBenet, she was wrapped in not one , but two white blankets, thereby hiding any further post-mortem bleeding.

good point.

You have a dead body in the house, what can you do?

1. Stage some kind of crime to explain away her death.
2. Remove her body from the house.

Option 1. is particularly difficult since it implicates the residents as the main suspects, option 2. solves both problems e.g. it potentially removes suspicion and explains away her death?

I reckon JonBenet was originally intended to be dumped outside her house, even if it was only 20 feet from their front door or the backyard, simply enough to suggest an intruder did it?

that's what I think UK,OR...since the RN says "you will be denied her remains"..then it's possible they were considering hiding her body for good, never to be found? I think it was a panic-driven thought,not one they would necessarily carry through.
Keep in mind,and I think this is significant--JR tries to account for his fingerprints on the walk-in fridge that morning,before JB was found.SO I think they either put her body in there,pondering what to do with her,or perhaps put her in there to alter her body temp. in an attempt to confuse the TOD? The other possibility is that they considered putting her in there,but didn't do it.Perhaps someone else was called and asked to help hide the body (but refused),and she was placed there,or they'd thought about putting her in there, in the meantime? Perhaps even a staging was considered there?

So someone broke the window in the basement, placed the suitcase against the wall, maybe it originally contained some household valuables, who knows. The ransom note was intended to offer a rationale for her being found outdoors.

FW was the one who moved the suitcase,and also,I was watching a video online recently,and Thomas says the pics weren't time-stamped.But,considering the contents of the suitcase,they either didn't know what was in there,or wanted to set up JAR,and I don't think the wanted to set him up.
I agree on the last line.

Also it is probable that its at this point that JonBenet's post-mortem urine-release is noticed, further investigation shows continued vaginal bleeding which is quickly wiped clean, to prevent it seeping through to the longjohns, possibly its at this stage the blankets are added just to make sure nothing can be seen untoward in this region?

could be.

Alternately in conjunction with garroting JonBenet outside the wine-cellar door, she was further vaginally assaulted with the remaining piece of the paintbrush, all to create the signs of a viscious, sadistic sexual assault, leaving the piece of paintbrush handle inside JonBenet?

could be,but from descriptions,it doesn't sound that way.Thomas wouldn't have to wonder where the splinter came from if that were the case.
My other thought is,since there is a line blacked-out in the report..perhaps it was left laying in the WC,close to where JR placed the tape?
I'm not sure the garrote wasn't included in Plan A..they did need to account for the manual strangulation marks on her neck,why would simply placing her outside be enough for them to feel it wasn't necessary?Possibly,since the whole world would be a suspect then,but in her own yard,I'm not sure about.

For some unknown reason Plan A is abandonded, and I do not think it was because of the snow,

for what reason then? I think you also have to consider other possibilities,since JR was trying to account for his prints on the fridge.All of which include removing her from the house,if not just an attempt to alter the TOD.

I reckon both parents played a role in the final staging and that one or both were present when JonBenet was killed!


.

absolutely,UK.JR's behavior alone that morning says he knew what had happened to JB already !
One thing that confuses me though,is SL's (Melinda's fiance,Stewart Long) statement that JR said he'd found the body at 11 am that morning.The IDI's will say that LE lied,or were mistaken about what he said,but...I don't think neither he nor LE lied,nor was there any mistake about what he said or heard.My question is...was JR in such a confused state of mind when telling JAR about finding her that he misstated the correct time,or did he state a different time of day on purpose,knowing SL was listening? (in thinking that Patsy may not get away with it,so at least that excludes him from any prior knowledge or staging before that time).

 

[DeeDee249]

if JBR was wiped down, what was used? a washcloth? where is it?

The autopsy report stated that dark blue fibers were found on JBR's thighs and pubic area. Some suggestions as to what these came from were both linked to JR. He owned a dark blue bathrobe that was found in an odd place that morning- the den, one floor down from his bedroom/bathroom, where you'd expect to find a bathrobe.
The other source could be a dark knit shirt that JR wore to the White's party. I know those fibers were found on the crotch area of JBR. If she had been wiped with cotton panties of the same type that she was found in (but a different size, of course), those fibers would have been found on her thighs as well. The black light test showed her thighs had been wiped. It would be expected to see the panty fibers on the pubic area of course, but not on the thighs. I don't recall that the panties were ever considered as having been used for that purpose.

 

[Albert18]

I don't think Patsy ever considered putting JonBenet outside. Her body would have frozen out there so I don't see her doing that.

John's bathrobe was outside his bathroom on the third floor.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think Patsy ever considered putting JonBenet outside. Her body would have frozen out there so I don't see her doing that.

John's bathrobe was outside his bathroom on the third floor.

Albert18,

I don't think Patsy ever considered putting JonBenet outside. Her body would have frozen out there so I don't see her doing that.

The forensic evidence suggests that it was Patsy who constructed and applied the garrote. With JonBenet patently dead, as intended. I doubt a frozen corpse would have fazed her one bit?

 

[UKGuy]

The autopsy report stated that dark blue fibers were found on JBR's thighs and pubic area. Some suggestions as to what these came from were both linked to JR. He owned a dark blue bathrobe that was found in an odd place that morning- the den, one floor down from his bedroom/bathroom, where you'd expect to find a bathrobe.
The other source could be a dark knit shirt that JR wore to the White's party. I know those fibers were found on the crotch area of JBR. If she had been wiped with cotton panties of the same type that she was found in (but a different size, of course), those fibers would have been found on her thighs as well. The black light test showed her thighs had been wiped. It would be expected to see the panty fibers on the pubic area of course, but not on the thighs. I don't recall that the panties were ever considered as having been used for that purpose.

DeeDee249,

The size-12's left on JonBenet were urine and blood stained. If she had originally been wearing size-6's, what might be the reason for changing them?

I reckon it was the stagers intention that it should be assumed that JonBenet was originally wearing those size-12's, for whatever reason, they were part of the fabricated crime-scene.

Most people would accept JonBenet was likely to have been wearing a pair of her size-6's to the White's and still have them on returning to her house. Only the police know if a Wednesday pair was included in her panty drawer or discovered elsewhere in the house e.g. her bedroom.

To add emphasis, on her bathroom floor lay a pair of soiled pants, i think, inside a pair of her jeans, if you then add in the urine-soaked size-12's, which we know the stager knew were urine-soaked, then it appears the stager was not concerned unduly with leaving direct evidence of JonBenet's either wet or soiled underwear, but not so her original size-6's?

.

 

[UKGuy]

JMO8778,

good point,but if it's not confusion,then why wipe her down after the underwear was applied? Surely someone in their right state of mind (or I think at least JR would have known better,from his crime readings) would know that having blood on the underwear but yet wiping her down wouldn't leave any corresponding blood stains on the body,and an intruder likely wouldn't bother to do this.what would he care if she's bleeding or not?

A point , due to enacting Plan B, time was short, so it is unlikely to be panic, more a pragmatic decision to attempt to wipe her down, then hide any further post-mortem bleeding with those blankets, her neck and pubic area are the two major areas that receive serious staging?

Keep in mind,and I think this is significant--JR tries to account for his fingerprints on the walk-in fridge that morning,before JB was found.SO I think they either put her body in there,pondering what to do with her,or perhaps put her in there to alter her body temp. in an attempt to confuse the TOD? The other possibility is that they considered putting her in there,but didn't do it.Perhaps someone else was called and asked to help hide the body (but refused),and she was placed there,or they'd thought about putting her in there, in the meantime? Perhaps even a staging was considered there?

Yes its possible she was placed in the walk-in fridge, difficult to explain JR attempting to account for his fingerprints in his own house mmm?

FW was the one who moved the suitcase,and also,I was watching a video online recently,and Thomas says the pics weren't time-stamped.But,considering the contents of the suitcase,they either didn't know what was in there,or wanted to set up JAR,and I don't think the wanted to set him up.
I agree on the last line.

Sure but JonBenet may have been molested in that room and any contents percieved to be risky, simply removed to the basement. Wherever JonBenet was originally assaulted, that crime-scene would have been cleaned up, now some objects could not be wished away, so since the basement had been selected as a fake crime-scene then some of these objects would be relocated to the basement?

could be,but from descriptions,it doesn't sound that way.Thomas wouldn't have to wonder where the splinter came from if that were the case.
My other thought is,since there is a line blacked-out in the report..perhaps it was left laying in the WC,close to where JR placed the tape?

Yes that seems sensible, so why is a piece of the paintbrush missing?

I'm not sure the garrote wasn't included in Plan A..they did need to account for the manual strangulation marks on her neck,why would simply placing her outside be enough for them to feel it wasn't necessary?Possibly,since the whole world would be a suspect then,but in her own yard,I'm not sure about.

I'm confident that the garrote was a last minute decision e.g. part of Plan B, otherwise all the staging would be reasonably convincing , no urine-soaked longjohns, no blood-stained size-12's, no hair embedded into the knotting of the garrote etc etc.

I reckon one of JR, PR vetoed JonBenet's body being dumped outdoors, and the person vetoed was asked what else can we do, so Plan B evolves, in Plan A JonBenet may have been restrained by the nylon cord in some manner, think on those abrasions, described as stun-gun marks, this then being used to form part of the garrote?

absolutely,UK.JR's behavior alone that morning says he knew what had happened to JB already !
One thing that confuses me though,is SL's (Melinda's fiance,Stewart Long) statement that JR said he'd found the body at 11 am that morning.The IDI's will say that LE lied,or were mistaken about what he said,but...I don't think neither he nor LE lied,nor was there any mistake about what he said or heard.My question is...was JR in such a confused state of mind when telling JAR about finding her that he misstated the correct time,or did he state a different time of day on purpose,knowing SL was listening? (in thinking that Patsy may not get away with it,so at least that excludes him from any prior knowledge or staging before that time).

No, because in court, any self respecting prosecuter would say, Mr Ramsey, on finding the body at 11 am, why did you not report this immediately? I put it to you, you always knew where to discover her, because from the very start you were part of a murderous conspiracy

This does not mean he did not visit JonBenet's dead body, he may even have moved her from one place in the basement to another? Hence him becoming confused about his movements in the basement?

Curiously if you think about it, it must mean John Ramsey discovered his daughters corpse not once but twice in the same day when nobody else could find her, go figure?

.

 

[Blondieskatz]

Were either of the two blankets found said to have blood and/or urine on them?

Maybe the underwear she had on when she died was removed when she was wiped down except she was wiped down so good and when the sz 12 underwear was put on her it picked up what blood was missed. This could account for the blood on the underwear but not on her.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes that seems sensible, so why is a piece of the paintbrush missing?

well,that blacked-out line is pretty long,just for describing a piece of tape.Although I recall reading somewhere that it's presumed she could have been left with some of personal objects,like a stuffed animal or something,around her.We know her gown was there,for one.

 

[JMO8778]

well,that blacked-out line is pretty long,just for describing a piece of tape.Although I recall reading somewhere that it's presumed she could have been left with some of personal objects,like a stuffed animal or something,around her.We know her gown was there,for one.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/unexplained.html
scroll to bottom:

I guess that line would have to be about at least the gown and tape,since it's not mentioned in the earlier lines.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

The size-12's left on JonBenet were urine and blood stained. If she had originally been wearing size-6's, what might be the reason for changing them?

I reckon it was the stagers intention that it should be assumed that JonBenet was originally wearing those size-12's, for whatever reason, they were part of the fabricated crime-scene.

Most people would accept JonBenet was likely to have been wearing a pair of her size-6's to the White's and still have them on returning to her house. Only the police know if a Wednesday pair was included in her panty drawer or discovered elsewhere in the house e.g. her bedroom.

To add emphasis, on her bathroom floor lay a pair of soiled pants, i think, inside a pair of her jeans, if you then add in the urine-soaked size-12's, which we know the stager knew were urine-soaked, then it appears the stager was not concerned unduly with leaving direct evidence of JonBenet's either wet or soiled underwear, but not so her original size-6's?

.

It was well-known among all the R friends and family that JBR had regressed in her potty training. She had been fully trained by age 3- yet regressed at some point during the last year or so of her life. I don't think PR was unduly concerned about there being evidence of an "accident".
That's why the urine stains on the long johns and size 12s did not trouble the stagers. BUT the original size -6 panties likely had a significant amount of blood on them. THAT is another matter altogether, and the reason why the panties were changed and disappeared in the first place. If there was enough blood to make it necessary to wipe her thighs (not just the pubic area, but obviously there was enough blood to run down her thighs), there was enough blood on the panties to not want them to be seen. Obviously the urine stains did not present the same problem for the stagers.
About those urine stains....by the time the coroner recited his notes at autopsy- they were dried stains, not wet. Coroner Meyer saw JBR to pronounce her dead at 8pm on the 26th, about 7 hours after JR brought her up from the basement. He stayed about 20 minutes. He made some general notes about the outward appearance of the body. He never mentioned if her clothing was wet. He never took a liver stab to check core body temperature, nor did he check the potassium levels of the vitreous fluid of the eye- two standard procedures that help establish the time of death. He made no mention of the degree of rigor mortis AT THAT TIME, which also would have helped with TOD.
I don't believe the Rs were thinking about whether the urine stains would point to a TOD. They never suspected the pineapple in her stomach would be identified and point to a TOD either.
There are two possibilties for the urine release. First, it happened while she was still alive (but AFTER she was wiped down and the bloody panties were removed and the size 12s put on her) and BEFORE she was wrapped in the white blanket. The stager either ignored it or did not notice it.
Second, it was post-mortem release. But again, AFTER she was wiped and the bloody panties were removed and BEFORE she was wrapped in the blanket(s). There obviously was enough time that elapsed between the urine release and wrapping her in the blanket that the clothing could dry, because there was NO urine on the blankets. At least it has never been reported that there was.
We can assume that she died before 1am-(based on the autopsy reports about the stages of rigor mortis and stomach contents) There was plenty of time for the clothing to dry. She may have been moved several times after death, too (or while dying), but before livor mortis became "fixed". The livor patterns showed that she was not moved after they became fixed.
THAT's why I feel that whatever caused the bleeding happened before she died. If she had been moved around that much after death, the livor patterns would indicate that. Livor mortis begins fairly quickly after death. It becomes "fixed" after a little while. Her livor patterns are consistant with how she was found...on her back with her head turned to the right.

 

[Littledeer]

That's something that has always bothered me. If my husband knew I was upstairs in a hysterical state because my daughter had been kidnapped, etc. and he found her body in the same condition as JonBonet's body was found ,and there was not one, but two blankets on the floor or on top of her, he would have wrapped her in either one or both blankets or carried her upstairs with the blankets on to prevent me from seeing her entire body. (Why, in his mind it would have been a lesser shock than seeing her entire body). Any mother/wife here understand what I am saying?

I'm not the best at saying what I want. But I guess I am trying to say is why did JAR just leave the blankets there???

OH HELL, my husband wouldn't have even brought his own daughter upstairs in that condition to begin with. He would have been moaning and screaming right there until someone came down and forcibly removed him from the room.

Would he have touched her? Possibly yes. And that is with him being totally innocent of having anything to do with her death.

Did JAR think no one would hear him moan or scream upstairs and that is why he brought her body upstairs? How far away was the wine cellar to the stairs? Could any moaning or a LOUD scream be heard upstairs?

 

[DeeDee249]

That's something that has always bothered me. If my husband knew I was upstairs in a hysterical state because my daughter had been kidnapped, etc. and he found her body in the same condition as JonBonet's body was found ,and there was not one, but two blankets on the floor or on top of her, he would have wrapped her in either one or both blankets or carried her upstairs with the blankets on to prevent me from seeing her entire body. (Why, in his mind it would have been a lesser shock than seeing her entire body). Any mother/wife here understand what I am saying?

I'm not the best at saying what I want. But I guess I am trying to say is why did JAR just leave the blankets there???

OH HELL, my husband wouldn't have even brought his own daughter upstairs in that condition to begin with. He would have been moaning and screaming right there until someone came down and forcibly removed him from the room.

Would he have touched her? Possibly yes. And that is with him being totally innocent of having anything to do with her death.

Did JAR think no one would hear him moan or scream upstairs and that is why he brought her body upstairs? How far away was the wine cellar to the stairs? Could any moaning or a LOUD scream be heard upstairs?

I understand exactly what you are saying. Remember, we have only JRs word that she was wrapped in the blanket(s) to begin with. She may actually NOT have been.
IF the urine stains on her long johns and panties were from a post-mortem urine release- it would certainly explain why the blankets had no urine on them. And this could show that the killer(s)/stagers were unaware of the urine stains.
I don't know whether anyone could have heard JR scream or moan from upstairs- though it was only 1 floor up from the basement. There were people gathered in the kitchen and the stairs to the basement are right off the kitchen. The door to the wineceller is a straight line from the bottom of the stairs. I imagine if he'd screamed loudy, he would have been heard.
LA said that JR "moaned" after placing JBR on the floor upstairs and where he knew she could see him. She never heard him scream from the basement. She seemed quite shocked to see him carrying his dead daughter upstairs, because up to this point, it was still a "kidnapping". (Thanks to Officer French's inability to figure out how to open a door).
On the other hand, one of PR's "slips" was when she said "I scream and I hear John screaming FROM THE BASEMENT". This was before the 911 call. And before anyone else (supposedly) got there.

 

[UKGuy]

It was well-known among all the R friends and family that JBR had regressed in her potty training. She had been fully trained by age 3- yet regressed at some point during the last year or so of her life. I don't think PR was unduly concerned about there being evidence of an "accident".
That's why the urine stains on the long johns and size 12s did not trouble the stagers. BUT the original size -6 panties likely had a significant amount of blood on them. THAT is another matter altogether, and the reason why the panties were changed and disappeared in the first place. If there was enough blood to make it necessary to wipe her thighs (not just the pubic area, but obviously there was enough blood to run down her thighs), there was enough blood on the panties to not want them to be seen. Obviously the urine stains did not present the same problem for the stagers.
About those urine stains....by the time the coroner recited his notes at autopsy- they were dried stains, not wet. Coroner Meyer saw JBR to pronounce her dead at 8pm on the 26th, about 7 hours after JR brought her up from the basement. He stayed about 20 minutes. He made some general notes about the outward appearance of the body. He never mentioned if her clothing was wet. He never took a liver stab to check core body temperature, nor did he check the potassium levels of the vitreous fluid of the eye- two standard procedures that help establish the time of death. He made no mention of the degree of rigor mortis AT THAT TIME, which also would have helped with TOD.
I don't believe the Rs were thinking about whether the urine stains would point to a TOD. They never suspected the pineapple in her stomach would be identified and point to a TOD either.
There are two possibilties for the urine release. First, it happened while she was still alive (but AFTER she was wiped down and the bloody panties were removed and the size 12s put on her) and BEFORE she was wrapped in the white blanket. The stager either ignored it or did not notice it.
Second, it was post-mortem release. But again, AFTER she was wiped and the bloody panties were removed and BEFORE she was wrapped in the blanket(s). There obviously was enough time that elapsed between the urine release and wrapping her in the blanket that the clothing could dry, because there was NO urine on the blankets. At least it has never been reported that there was.
We can assume that she died before 1am-(based on the autopsy reports about the stages of rigor mortis and stomach contents) There was plenty of time for the clothing to dry. She may have been moved several times after death, too (or while dying), but before livor mortis became "fixed". The livor patterns showed that she was not moved after they became fixed.
THAT's why I feel that whatever caused the bleeding happened before she died. If she had been moved around that much after death, the livor patterns would indicate that. Livor mortis begins fairly quickly after death. It becomes "fixed" after a little while. Her livor patterns are consistant with how she was found...on her back with her head turned to the right.

DeeDee249,
Yes what you say seems sensible, one other possibility is urine-stained by osmosis?

Hopefully we have provisionally established that JonBenet's size-12's were urine/blood-stained after she was redressed in them, thus allowing Coroner Meyer to conclude that JonBenet had been wiped down?

This is an important conclusion since from it other events can be sequenced.

 

[UKGuy]

I understand exactly what you are saying. Remember, we have only JRs word that she was wrapped in the blanket(s) to begin with. She may actually NOT have been.
IF the urine stains on her long johns and panties were from a post-mortem urine release- it would certainly explain why the blankets had no urine on them. And this could show that the killer(s)/stagers were unaware of the urine stains.
I don't know whether anyone could have heard JR scream or moan from upstairs- though it was only 1 floor up from the basement. There were people gathered in the kitchen and the stairs to the basement are right off the kitchen. The door to the wineceller is a straight line from the bottom of the stairs. I imagine if he'd screamed loudy, he would have been heard.
LA said that JR "moaned" after placing JBR on the floor upstairs and where he knew she could see him. She never heard him scream from the basement. She seemed quite shocked to see him carrying his dead daughter upstairs, because up to this point, it was still a "kidnapping". (Thanks to Officer French's inability to figure out how to open a door).
On the other hand, one of PR's "slips" was when she said "I scream and I hear John screaming FROM THE BASEMENT". This was before the 911 call. And before anyone else (supposedly) got there.

DeeDee249,

On the other hand, one of PR's "slips" was when she said "I scream and I hear John screaming FROM THE BASEMENT". This was before the 911 call. And before anyone else (supposedly) got there.

Reminds me of JR discovering JonBenet's body at 11 am, both are statements totally out of place, and although most of the forensic evidence links PR to the crime-scene, its JR thats indirectly said to to have actually been present.


As JMO8778 suggests elsewhere you have to wonder if JR and PR were preparing their defense statements in advance of the court case?


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