Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[rashomon]

[Albert18]:
JonBenet bumps her head and John says "yes, she will probably die anyway, so let's have some fun with this"?

I haven't seen where this has been brought up by anybody. Can you give a link or quote where you see this at?

Littledeer, this was merely a sarcastic remark by poster Albert18, who can't imagine John would have helped Patsy to cover up the crime.

 

[JMO8778]

I have posted before that I believe that this is what happened too. I think that John, was either getting ready for bed, or already in the bed...when Patsy yelled for him, or he heard her scream (I believe that the neighbor DID hear a scream and that it was Patsy, after realizing what she had done). Responding to the panicky tone in Patsy's yell or scream, he rushed into JB's room in his undies...not taking time to put on a robe, shorts..or anything.

yes,and I think that's why JR was angry when BR got up and started asking questions..HE heard the scream,so BR might have as well (and likely did,unless he was in deep sleep by then).JR doesn't want BR questioned by LE.The time the scream was heard,and what else he may have overheard,might be giveaways.
I haven't heard the 911 tape,but JR's voice was said to be very harsh...that isn't the sound of someone who's worried about his daughter missing,IMO...it's the sound of someone who's angry b/c the plan is being messed up.
SO I think JR sent BR back to bed,w. strict orders not to talk,and not to get up,until he comes to get him.This SHOWS LE that BR has been in bed all night,and he has slept through everything,and doesn't need to be questioned.(or so he thinks...).

 

[UKGuy]

But fibers from John's shirt were found in the crotch area of the far too big underwear which had been put on JonBenet. You can't disregard such forensic evidence just because you can't imagine John having been involved in a cover-up.
Imo John could very well have helped Patsy in the cover-up if he too had something to hide.

rashomon,

If those alleged fibres can be produced in court then they are conviction material.

My starting point is this: lets assume there has been an accident one parent has flipped and whacked JonBenet resulting in her becoming unconcious, or some variation on an unintended accident?

Why not dial 911 , call you pediatrician, call ER, whatever just get some medical assistance to your daughter?

This never occurred, what did was a crime-staging, so whomever killed JonBenet knew she had to die to preserve their anonymity!

.

 

[DeeDee249]

yes,and I think that's why JR was angry when BR got up and started asking questions..HE heard the scream,so BR might have as well (and likely did,unless he was in deep sleep by then).JR doesn't want BR questioned by LE.The time the scream was heard,and what else he may have overheard,might be giveaways.
I haven't heard the 911 tape,but JR's voice was said to be very harsh...that isn't the sound of someone who's worried about his daughter missing,IMO...it's the sound of someone who's angry b/c the plan is being messed up.
SO I think JR sent BR back to bed,w. strict orders not to talk,and not to get up,until he comes to get him.This SHOWS LE that BR has been in bed all night,and he has slept through everything,and doesn't need to be questioned.(or so he thinks...).

THAT sounds very likely. I have not listened to the tape, so I don't know what JR's tone of voice was, but I can venture he said to BR: "We're not tallking to YOU!" in an angry tone. Ordering him back to bed and not to MOVE from that bed was a perfect tactic. Yes, then he could just tell LE that there was no point in questioning BR because he was in his bed the WHOLE time. BR was heard to ask "Please, what do I do?" So I can imagine JR telling him to go his bed and stay there!

 

[kelly london]

as someone who has always "leaned" towards the mother did it theory. i have one KINK that i can't get beyond - maybe you guys can help me. as a mother, no matter what state i was in, i would never mistakenly put a size 12 panty on my 6 year old daughter. the mother knew where those size 12 panties were in the drawer and who they were for - she would never have grabbed those - IMO that was done by an intruder or another person in the house who was not the mother.

 

[Ames]

as someone who has always "leaned" towards the mother did it theory. i have one KINK that i can't get beyond - maybe you guys can help me. as a mother, no matter what state i was in, i would never mistakenly put a size 12 panty on my 6 year old daughter. the mother knew where those size 12 panties were in the drawer and who they were for - she would never have grabbed those - IMO that was done by an intruder or another person in the house who was not the mother.

I believe that it was done by John, Patsy probably told him where to find them, and told him to open the new pack. I don't have a clue whose idea it was for them to be WEDNESDAY (days of the week) panties. Whoever it was that got them, when they opened up the pack, they didn't take the first one that they came to, because it would have said SUNDAY. I don't think that a real intruder would have cared in the least, what day of the week was written on the size 12 panties, plus..he wouldn't have known where they were kept.

 

[DeeDee249]

as someone who has always "leaned" towards the mother did it theory. i have one KINK that i can't get beyond - maybe you guys can help me. as a mother, no matter what state i was in, i would never mistakenly put a size 12 panty on my 6 year old daughter. the mother knew where those size 12 panties were in the drawer and who they were for - she would never have grabbed those - IMO that was done by an intruder or another person in the house who was not the mother.

This has been discussed a lot here, but it's been awhile. See if this helps you:
Of course, you are absolutely correct about the size of the panties and whether a mother would dress her child in them.
BUT there is a very good explanation for why PR/JR would have put those too-big panties on her that night.
PR admitted to buying BOTH the size 6 Bloomies panties (for JBR) and the size 12 Bloomies panties (for her niece Jenny) that November while visiting New York City. They were most likely wrapped as a gift, among the packages found partially unwrapped in the basement by LE.
Christmas Day that year was a Wednesday- the day embroidered on the waistband of the panties found on the body.
Let's assume the original size 6 panties PR dressed her daughter in that day also said Wednesday. PR would have been JUST the type to make sure the day on the panties matched the date. As far as we know, THOSE size 6 panties were never found. Yet, she owned them, PR said she bought them.
After the return from the White's, and the events leading up to her the death, something happened to cause JBR to bleed from the vagina. We know this for 2 reasons: 1. Liquid and semi-liquid (beginning to coagulate) blood was found in her vagina at the autopsy.
And 2. Black light tests at the autopsy confirm that blood had been wiped from her pubic area and THIGHS (indicating that there was enough blood to have run down her thighs.
The original panties were stained with significant blood. They COULDN'T be left on her. The Rs maintain they never saw her alive after she was put to bed that night, so the body HAD to be found in the clothes she was wearing when they put her to bed. And PR said she left the shirt on her that she had worn to the White's and took off her shoes, socks and black velvet pants and pulled on her long johns ( she was found barefoot and wearing the long johns). Moms do leave panties on little girls for sleeping (I also did this with my daughter).
Many people do not believe PR's statement that the size-12s were in JBR's panty drawer (which was actually in her BATHROOM, not her bedroom- something no intruder would have known.) Besides, LE removed all JBR's panties- they were all size 4 or 6. NOWHERE were the rest of the size 12 panties (there were 7 pairs in the set) found in the home. Most believe the size 12s were wrapped as a gift to be given after Christmas to Jenny.
When the original size 6 panties became bloodied, they had to be replaced. BUT there was no other panty available that said WEDNESDAY except the size 12s. Why was it important for the panties to say WEDNESDAY? Simple. That is what she wore to the White's and it was well-known that JBR would ask any available adult to help her with wiping on the toilet. So someone other than PR or JR could have seen the panties she was wearing and may have remembered that they said WEDNESDAY. This is different than remembering whether they had pink or blue flowers on them- someone might not remember that because it was very ordinary, but panties that said WEDNESDAY might stick in the memory.
PR and JR couldn't take that chance- IF it was to be believed that they didn't see her after she went to bed.
So they had to open the gift-wrapped boxes in the basement to find the only other panty that also said WEDNESDAY. Police found unwrapped boxes. But the rest of the size 12s had disappeared. Months later, the Rs sent what they claim were the rest of the size 12s. These panties were sold at Bloomingdale's. They are STILL sold. It would have been easy to get another set.
NO intruder/murder would know where OTHER panties that said WEDNESDAY were in the house...they certainly would not have known that there was a spare set gift-wrapped in the basement.
An intruder/murderer would NOT have cared whether they replaced the panties anyway. Why would they? They had just killed a little girl...someone who did that would't care HOW she was found. Re-dressed in identical panties, wrapped in her own blanket, etc.-wouldn't be an issue. Leave the child the way she was when she died, bloody or no.
BUT if a parent was responsible and needed to hide the fact that there was, indeed, time spent with JBR awake after returning home, that is another story. They HAD to replace the clothing exactly as it would be expected to be.
This is long-winded, I know, but I've tried to make a plausible explanation for why a mother would put panties that clearly did not fit on her child.
Remember one other thing. JBR wore those panties only in death. The Rs NEVER expected that anyone would notice that they were too big or not her usual size. They never expected that Police would question the size of underwear on a dead little girl or that it would be made a big deal of.
Just like they never expected pineapple to be identified in her stomach. So they had to deny that, too.

 

[UKGuy]

This has been discussed a lot here, but it's been awhile. See if this helps you:
Of course, you are absolutely correct about the size of the panties and whether a mother would dress her child in them.
BUT there is a very good explanation for why PR/JR would have put those too-big panties on her that night.
PR admitted to buying BOTH the size 6 Bloomies panties (for JBR) and the size 12 Bloomies panties (for her niece Jenny) that November while visiting New York City. They were most likely wrapped as a gift, among the packages found partially unwrapped in the basement by LE.
Christmas Day that year was a Wednesday- the day embroidered on the waistband of the panties found on the body.
Let's assume the original size 6 panties PR dressed her daughter in that day also said Wednesday. PR would have been JUST the type to make sure the day on the panties matched the date. As far as we know, THOSE size 6 panties were never found. Yet, she owned them, PR said she bought them.
After the return from the White's, and the events leading up to her the death, something happened to cause JBR to bleed from the vagina. We know this for 2 reasons: 1. Liquid and semi-liquid (beginning to coagulate) blood was found in her vagina at the autopsy.
And 2. Black light tests at the autopsy confirm that blood had been wiped from her pubic area and THIGHS (indicating that there was enough blood to have run down her thighs.
The original panties were stained with significant blood. They COULDN'T be left on her. The Rs maintain they never saw her alive after she was put to bed that night, so the body HAD to be found in the clothes she was wearing when they put her to bed. And PR said she left the shirt on her that she had worn to the White's and took off her shoes, socks and black velvet pants and pulled on her long johns ( she was found barefoot and wearing the long johns). Moms do leave panties on little girls for sleeping (I also did this with my daughter).
Many people do not believe PR's statement that the size-12s were in JBR's panty drawer (which was actually in her BATHROOM, not her bedroom- something no intruder would have known.) Besides, LE removed all JBR's panties- they were all size 4 or 6. NOWHERE were the rest of the size 12 panties (there were 7 pairs in the set) found in the home. Most believe the size 12s were wrapped as a gift to be given after Christmas to Jenny.
When the original size 6 panties became bloodied, they had to be replaced. BUT there was no other panty available that said WEDNESDAY except the size 12s. Why was it important for the panties to say WEDNESDAY? Simple. That is what she wore to the White's and it was well-known that JBR would ask any available adult to help her with wiping on the toilet. So someone other than PR or JR could have seen the panties she was wearing and may have remembered that they said WEDNESDAY. This is different than remembering whether they had pink or blue flowers on them- someone might not remember that because it was very ordinary, but panties that said WEDNESDAY might stick in the memory.
PR and JR couldn't take that chance- IF it was to be believed that they didn't see her after she went to bed.
So they had to open the gift-wrapped boxes in the basement to find the only other panty that also said WEDNESDAY. Police found unwrapped boxes. But the rest of the size 12s had disappeared. Months later, the Rs sent what they claim were the rest of the size 12s. These panties were sold at Bloomingdale's. They are STILL sold. It would have been easy to get another set.
NO intruder/murder would know where OTHER panties that said WEDNESDAY were in the house...they certainly would not have known that there was a spare set gift-wrapped in the basement.
An intruder/murderer would NOT have cared whether they replaced the panties anyway. Why would they? They had just killed a little girl...someone who did that would't care HOW she was found. Re-dressed in identical panties, wrapped in her own blanket, etc.-wouldn't be an issue. Leave the child the way she was when she died, bloody or no.
BUT if a parent was responsible and needed to hide the fact that there was, indeed, time spent with JBR awake after returning home, that is another story. They HAD to replace the clothing exactly as it would be expected to be.
This is long-winded, I know, but I've tried to make a plausible explanation for why a mother would put panties that clearly did not fit on her child.
Remember one other thing. JBR wore those panties only in death. The Rs NEVER expected that anyone would notice that they were too big or not her usual size. They never expected that Police would question the size of underwear on a dead little girl or that it would be made a big deal of.
Just like they never expected pineapple to be identified in her stomach. So they had to deny that, too.

DeeDee249,

Besides, LE removed all JBR's panties- they were all size 4 or 6. NOWHERE were the rest of the size 12 panties (there were 7 pairs in the set) found in the home.

and ...

So they had to open the gift-wrapped boxes in the basement to find the only other panty that also said WEDNESDAY. Police found unwrapped boxes.

mmm, but did the LE discover any size-12's? Also why did the Ramsey's return a pack of size-12's, and was there a missing pair of Wednesday size-12's?

Also LHP is on record as saying the size-12's were kept in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer.

Go figure ...

 

[UKGuy]

as someone who has always "leaned" towards the mother did it theory. i have one KINK that i can't get beyond - maybe you guys can help me. as a mother, no matter what state i was in, i would never mistakenly put a size 12 panty on my 6 year old daughter. the mother knew where those size 12 panties were in the drawer and who they were for - she would never have grabbed those - IMO that was done by an intruder or another person in the house who was not the mother.

kelly london,

I agree, but in this homicide we are talking staging not normal day to day stuff, so appearances matter more than logic, so it was not done mistakenly.

Even if the mother never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, we know from the forensic evidence that she had the opportunity to remove those size-12's at a later stage e.g. place a pair of size-6's on her, she declined.

imo, a more interesting question might be, why would a mother deny her daughter medical assistance, and regard the wearing of size-12's of more importance?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

and ...


mmm, but did the LE discover any size-12's? Also why did the Ramsey's return a pack of size-12's, and was there a missing pair of Wednesday size-12's?

Also LHP is on record as saying the size-12's were kept in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer.

Go figure ...

LE never discovered ANY size -12 panties in the home. This was suspicious for a few reasons: First, PR claimed she had put them in JBR's panty drawer. Since LE searched both the bedroom AND bathroom drawers they removed all of JBR's panties- they were all size 4 or 6.
Second- PR admitted to buying the size 12s for her niece. There should have been 6 other pairs in that house, regardless of where they were. LE also examined the partially unwrapped (which the RST describes as "partially wrapped- who "partially wraps" a box? I mean, it doesn't take that long- either you wrap it or you don't- so this is the R way of explainting WHY those boxes were unwrapped- WE know why- they were looking for those panties!)
This can only mean that the rest of the new size 12s went the way of the original size 6 Wednesday panties- they were never found either.
MY thought? They were all removed from the scene by the Rs, either that day as they left for the Stines wearing LARGE coats and were unsearched by LE before they left, OR removed by Aunt P in her "theft of evidence" raid on the house. My guess is that they could have been hidden in the golf bag shown in the crime scene photos as in the hall right outside the wineceller.
Yes, JR just HAD to have that golf bag (in the middle of a Colorado winter)-he made a point of specifically asking for it; his daughter had been strangled and bludgeoned to death just DAYS before but, hey- Aunt P- I gotta have that golf bag!

 

[UKGuy]

LE never discovered ANY size -12 panties in the home. This was suspicious for a few reasons: First, PR claimed she had put them in JBR's panty drawer. Since LE searched both the bedroom AND bathroom drawers they removed all of JBR's panties- they were all size 4 or 6.
Second- PR admitted to buying the size 12s for her niece. There should have been 6 other pairs in that house, regardless of where they were. LE also examined the partially unwrapped (which the RST describes as "partially wrapped- who "partially wraps" a box? I mean, it doesn't take that long- either you wrap it or you don't- so this is the R way of explainting WHY those boxes were unwrapped- WE know why- they were looking for those panties!)
This can only mean that the rest of the new size 12s went the way of the original size 6 Wednesday panties- they were never found either.
MY thought? They were all removed from the scene by the Rs, either that day as they left for the Stines wearing LARGE coats and were unsearched by LE before they left, OR removed by Aunt P in her "theft of evidence" raid on the house. My guess is that they could have been hidden in the golf bag shown in the crime scene photos as in the hall right outside the wineceller.
Yes, JR just HAD to have that golf bag (in the middle of a Colorado winter)-he made a point of specifically asking for it; his daughter had been strangled and bludgeoned to death just DAYS before but, hey- Aunt P- I gotta have that golf bag!

DeeDee249,
Patsy's statements regarding the size-12's are inconsistent. If the size-12's had been gift wrapped by Patsy, how come she needs to unwrap boxes to find them? Occam concludes it must have been someone else?

The point about the size-12's must be why remove the other 6-pairs, then allegedly return them at a later date?

I feel the current theories do not explain the role of the size-12's very well?

.

 

[JMO8778]

If the size-12's had been gift wrapped by Patsy, how come she needs to unwrap boxes to find them? Occam concludes it must have been someone else?



.

she could have forgotten which box they were in;if you have a lot to wrap,that can easily happen.the thing is,would anyone else have known she even bought them? I think JB was the only one w. her when she purchased them?

 

[Blondieskatz]

I agree that it was PR who insisted the panties say Wednesday. If you go by the IDI why would the intruder care if the panties she had on were bloody, okay maybe they have the intruder's DNA, do they have to be changed, but really would he care if they said Wednesday? I don't think so, especially if he had a dead little girl laying there and he needed to get out of the house in a hurry.

Also, just a thought on JR's shirt fibers. If PR and JR had hugged that night some one the fibers from his shirt would have been on her jacket which could explain the transfer. JMO

 

[UKGuy]

she could have forgotten which box they were in;if you have a lot to wrap,that can easily happen.the thing is,would anyone else have known she even bought them? I think JB was the only one w. her when she purchased them?

JMO8778,

mmm, memory loss is not the sign of a good theory, if she forgot, how would she ever know which gift was meant for which person, occam assumes they must have had name tags then?

The explanations for the size-12's are not very satisfying, although credible, something is missing?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree that it was PR who insisted the panties say Wednesday. If you go by the IDI why would the intruder care if the panties she had on were bloody, okay maybe they have the intruder's DNA, do they have to be changed, but really would he care if they said Wednesday? I don't think so, especially if he had a dead little girl laying there and he needed to get out of the house in a hurry.

Also, just a thought on JR's shirt fibers. If PR and JR had hugged that night some one the fibers from his shirt would have been on her jacket which could explain the transfer. JMO

Blondieskatz,

I agree that it was PR who insisted the panties say Wednesday.

I disagree, the size-12 assumptions are inconsistent with the forensic evidence.

Not unless Patsy was attempting a double-bluff with the size-12's comparable to the rationale that some ascribe to Patsy for garroting JonBenet: e.g. they would never think a parent would do such stuff?

.

 

[Blondieskatz]

UKGuy

If not PR then who?

What I was saying is if an intruder for some reason just had to change JB's panties why not just pull a pair out of a drawer. I don't think the size 12 Wednesday panties were as handy as just any pair of sz 6 would have been. So what would be the significance of the size 12 Wed. panties?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy

If not PR then who?

What I was saying is if an intruder for some reason just had to change JB's panties why not just pull a pair out of a drawer. I don't think the size 12 Wednesday panties were as handy as just any pair of sz 6 would have been. So what would be the significance of the size 12 Wed. panties?

Blondieskatz,

What I was saying is if an intruder for some reason just had to change JB's panties why not just pull a pair out of a drawer.

I agree 100%, the same reasoning must surely apply to any other suspect?

If not PR then who?

JR or BR.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

UKGuy

If not PR then who?

What I was saying is if an intruder for some reason just had to change JB's panties why not just pull a pair out of a drawer. I don't think the size 12 Wednesday panties were as handy as just any pair of sz 6 would have been. So what would be the significance of the size 12 Wed. panties?

This is easier to explain if you take the "Intruder" out of the picture. There IS no significance to the panties if an intruder commited the crime. Not only would an intruder not know where her panties were kept, nor would an intruder take a chance going back to her room to look, with a sibling asleep down the hall and parents upstairs. And NO intruder would ever know there were new size 12 panties identical to the ones JBR was wearing wrapped in a box in the basement.
The size 12s point to only one thing- redressing by a parent. And it didn't have to be PR who unwrapped the boxes- she could easily have told her husband to do it- of course, as the boxes were already wrapped, they would have to be UNwrapped till the new panties were found.
Trying to put an intruder in this crime is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It just doesn't fit.
As far as the significance of the size 12 Wednesdays...I have exlplained this as well as it can be explained. The "Wednesday" was significant because the panties had to be the same as the ones she wore that day. The size 12 had NO particular significance, but was simply the only other pair in the home that said Wednesday. They could have been any size- it just happened that the gift panty set was a size 12.

 

[Ames]

LE never discovered ANY size -12 panties in the home. This was suspicious for a few reasons: First, PR claimed she had put them in JBR's panty drawer. Since LE searched both the bedroom AND bathroom drawers they removed all of JBR's panties- they were all size 4 or 6.
Second- PR admitted to buying the size 12s for her niece. There should have been 6 other pairs in that house, regardless of where they were. LE also examined the partially unwrapped (which the RST describes as "partially wrapped- who "partially wraps" a box? I mean, it doesn't take that long- either you wrap it or you don't- so this is the R way of explainting WHY those boxes were unwrapped- WE know why- they were looking for those panties!)
This can only mean that the rest of the new size 12s went the way of the original size 6 Wednesday panties- they were never found either.
MY thought? They were all removed from the scene by the Rs, either that day as they left for the Stines wearing LARGE coats and were unsearched by LE before they left, OR removed by Aunt P in her "theft of evidence" raid on the house. My guess is that they could have been hidden in the golf bag shown in the crime scene photos as in the hall right outside the wineceller.
Yes, JR just HAD to have that golf bag (in the middle of a Colorado winter)-he made a point of specifically asking for it; his daughter had been strangled and bludgeoned to death just DAYS before but, hey- Aunt P- I gotta have that golf bag!

Yep, and Patsy was asked, in her 1998 interview, how often John played golf, and she said that she couldn't remember the last time that he played. That tells me that he was NOT an avid golfer...so why the heck would he need that precious golf bag??

 

[Ames]

This is easier to explain if you take the "Intruder" out of the picture. There IS no significance to the panties if an intruder commited the crime. Not only would an intruder not know where her panties were kept, nor would an intruder take a chance going back to her room to look, with a sibling asleep down the hall and parents upstairs. And NO intruder would ever know there were new size 12 panties identical to the ones JBR was wearing wrapped in a box in the basement.
The size 12s point to only one thing- redressing by a parent. And it didn't have to be PR who unwrapped the boxes- she could easily have told her husband to do it- of course, as the boxes were already wrapped, they would have to be UNwrapped till the new panties were found.
Trying to put an intruder in this crime is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It just doesn't fit.
As far as the significance of the size 12 Wednesdays...I have exlplained this as well as it can be explained. The "Wednesday" was significant because the panties had to be the same as the ones she wore that day. The size 12 had NO particular significance, but was simply the only other pair in the home that said Wednesday. They could have been any size- it just happened that the gift panty set was a size 12.

Exactly!! They could have been a size 16 and the Rams would have still stuck them on JB...if they had of had Wednesday written on them. And I don't care if those panties were in a drawer, in a box, in the laundry..., there is no way that an intruder would have known where to find them.