Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[UKGuy]

How could they be aware of a something which had not yet happened?
Imo JonBenet drew her last breath after all the staging was over, and the urine was from post-mortem release.

Therea are no indicators of a second wipe-down.
Cloth fibers led the coroner to believe JonBenet had been wiped down.
We don't even know if it was blood that was wiped down. The lack of corresponding stains on the underwear is no indicator of this, imo, since the big size 12s could have been put on JonBenet after she was wiped down, then the longjohns were put over her.
Due to the subsequent handling of JonBenet's body during the staging, a few drops of blood could then have seeped from the vagina onto the underwear.

Imo the boot is on the other foot, for the evidence contradicts your theory.
Just think about your scenario from the point of logic and you will see the flaw in your argumentation:
What sense would it make make for the stager of the scene to bother wiping blood off the victim's body but not removing the bloodstainend underwear also?

jmo

rashomon,

Therea are no indicators of a second wipe-down.
Cloth fibers led the coroner to believe JonBenet had been wiped down.
We don't even know if it was blood that was wiped down. The lack of corresponding stains on the underwear is no indicator of this, imo, since the big size 12s could have been put on JonBenet after she was wiped down, then the longjohns were put over her.

I reckon your judgement is clouded by your attachement to your theory.

Cloth fibers alone do not allow Coroner Meyer to form the conclusion that JonBenet was wiped down, also how do you know she was only cleaned up once?

Don't simply accept my word for this, follow the evidence, here is Det. Arndt's testimony:

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.

But you say:

The lack of corresponding stains on the underwear is no indicator of this, imo ...

Which is not what Coroner Meyer bases his opinion on, his conclusion regarding JonBenet being wiped down is based on an absence of blood, not its presence!

Due to the subsequent handling of JonBenet's body during the staging, a few drops of blood could then have seeped from the vagina onto the underwear.

Do you not reckon Coroner Meyer would have taken that possibility into account, he may even have considered it to have actually occured, e.g. from the autopsy report:

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE OF INJURY: ...
On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of
closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood.
...

So Coroner Meyer was patently aware of the circumstance that you suggest but still concluded that JonBenet had been wiped down.

What sense would it make make for the stager of the scene to bother wiping blood off the victim's body but not removing the bloodstainend underwear also?

Because it was a damage limitation exercise, not a cleanup, she had already been cleaned up, the stager was likely worried that the blood might seep through to her longjohns thereby destroying the illusion that she had been kidnapped, and just in case it did happen she was wrapped in the white blanket.

Whatever the motivation behind JonBenet's death, she was cleaned up, and likely redressed in the clean size-12's, then had the longjohns added?

Later when another crime-scene was being staged, with an accompanying fake sexual assault using the paintbrush, or finger, this draws blood and she is wiped down, but leaving her in blood-stained underwear allows Coroner Meyer to make his conclusion that she had been wiped down.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Lets put it this way then, if Patsy had simply been douching JonBenet, and JonBenet had accidentally hit her head on some object rendering her unconcious. Then why, following your theory was she so quickly murdered?

Douching is not sexual abuse, it may be unnecessary for a 6-year, and distasteful to many, also JonBenet had a recorded history of toileting issues, so why deny your daughter medical assistance, then murder her with a garrote, when dialling 911, or even placing her in the car and driving over fast, would allow her to recieve medical treatment?

Coroner Meyer is implying in his analysis of the evidence that sexual abuse was a factor contributing towards the death of JonBenet, if not the major one.

The prevailing assumption among investigators was that JonBenet had been molested, that it was chronic was open to debate?

.

I believe PR realized when JBR's skull was fractured so massively, that she thought her daughter WAS dead/dying. It's not a matter of her being quickly murdered. As far as they were concerned, she was dead. The garotte was made to give weight to the kidnapping-gone-wrong theory, and to provide a visible cause of death, as the skull fracture was not visible.
The Rs thought JBR was at the point of no return then. Either she was dead, or dying, or would have been massively brain-damaged had she been "saved". I truly believe PR would rather have had a dead JBR than a brain-dead JBR, possibly in a coma or vegetative state for the rest of her life. NO more dance lessons, no more custom pagent dresses fit for a mini-LasVegs showgirl, no more tiaras or trophies. To be faced with a severely handicapped JBR and to have been the CAUSE of it was not something PR could do. This way, JBR is the eternal pageant princess. A tiny beauty queen forever.

 

[UKGuy]

I believe PR realized when JBR's skull was fractured so massively, that she thought her daughter WAS dead/dying. It's not a matter of her being quickly murdered. As far as they were concerned, she was dead. The garotte was made to give weight to the kidnapping-gone-wrong theory, and to provide a visible cause of death, as the skull fracture was not visible.
The Rs thought JBR was at the point of no return then. Either she was dead, or dying, or would have been massively brain-damaged had she been "saved". I truly believe PR would rather have had a dead JBR than a brain-dead JBR, possibly in a coma or vegetative state for the rest of her life. NO more dance lessons, no more custom pagent dresses fit for a mini-LasVegs showgirl, no more tiaras or trophies. To be faced with a severely handicapped JBR and to have been the CAUSE of it was not something PR could do. This way, JBR is the eternal pageant princess. A tiny beauty queen forever.

DeeDee249,
If that had been me, and douching was the only issue, even if had struck my daughter in anger, inflicting unintended injuries, I would still rush her to hospital or dial ER.

I would rather have my daughter alive, regardless of any local gossip etc, even if it meant a criminal conviction!

I reckon the Ramsey's knew JonBenet had sustained serious head trauma, she was likely bleeding from the nose/mouth, and would have been unconcious, but how would they know how serious it would be, if they had had no medical advice?

Your theory informs us that JonBenet was killed shortly after sustaining her head injury, so a Ramsey, based on little medical knowledege, decided to murder their daughter, garrote her to death. They must have known she was alive, she was bleeding vaginally, and from her nose/mouth, she may even have had a seizure?

You may be correct that Patsy did not want a brain-dead JBR but how did she know this, without any medical advice?


This and other associated details of the Toilet Rage theory prevent me from taking it seriously.

e.g. JonBenet was up and walking about that night, she was not in bed, she had snacked pineapple, probably with Patsy's approval, now pineapple contains lots of fluid, never mind if JonBenet was drinking juice, or coffee, so why should Patsy be at all surprised if JonBenet wet the bed, if I had been Patsy I would reckon it was a done deal, and pencil in some early morning underwear changes and bathing time.

JonBenet was left wearing urine-soaked underwear and longjohns, according to your theory the Ramsey's had approximately 3-hours to rectify this situation, to prevent any suspicion that a bedwetting incident had been the trigger.

JonBenet had a long history of toileting issues, why should December 25/26 have been so different from all the others?

What is Patsy doing douching JonBenet say at 1 am, why not do it in the morning, since she may wet the bed again?

For me it does not add up!


.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

That skull fracture had to have made a loud and sickening sound when it was incurred - I wouldn't be surprised if people with no medical experience would be able to feel the fracture in her skull under her scalp and know that coupled with the sound of the fracture and any bleeding/seizures that may have been going on that brain-death was coming, if she survived.

Maybe whatever had been going on before the head wound was so bad, so taboo, so much of something they'd never want known that they thought the only way to ensure the secret was to eliminate the one they feared wouldn't keep the secret.

Maybe it was intentional in that regard after all.

Personally, I think Patsy just wasn't going to accept a daughter that was less than perfect (as the cosmetic surgery scare after the golf club incident shows), and that skull fracture was an alarm that less than perfect stage had been breached and crossed, with no return, no hope for salvation of Patsy's reputation as Super-Capable Wife/Mother/Friend/Patient/Christian...and my stars, reputation is just everything to a Southern girl. It's who she is, and how she's known. Patsy was okay being the former Miss WV who battled ovarian cancer and won, but she not about to be the former Miss WV who cared for her invalid daughter after a domestic accident left the daughter brain-dead. That was just not glamorous and refined and genteel and no, no, no.

As for douching and why not wait til morning - what if Patsy thought it needed to be done without JR's knowledge, and she wasn't sure she'd get a chance in the morning but knew she had time at night while he was in bed asleep? If you're off enough to think it's a good idea to douche a child that age, you're off enough to make it a late night event in secret.

 

[rashomon]

I truly believe PR would rather have had a dead JBR than a brain-dead JBR, possibly in a coma or vegetative state for the rest of her life.

I believe that too.

 

[UKGuy]

That skull fracture had to have made a loud and sickening sound when it was incurred - I wouldn't be surprised if people with no medical experience would be able to feel the fracture in her skull under her scalp and know that coupled with the sound of the fracture and any bleeding/seizures that may have been going on that brain-death was coming, if she survived.

Maybe whatever had been going on before the head wound was so bad, so taboo, so much of something they'd never want known that they thought the only way to ensure the secret was to eliminate the one they feared wouldn't keep the secret.

Maybe it was intentional in that regard after all.

Personally, I think Patsy just wasn't going to accept a daughter that was less than perfect (as the cosmetic surgery scare after the golf club incident shows), and that skull fracture was an alarm that less than perfect stage had been breached and crossed, with no return, no hope for salvation of Patsy's reputation as Super-Capable Wife/Mother/Friend/Patient/Christian...and my stars, reputation is just everything to a Southern girl. It's who she is, and how she's known. Patsy was okay being the former Miss WV who battled ovarian cancer and won, but she not about to be the former Miss WV who cared for her invalid daughter after a domestic accident left the daughter brain-dead. That was just not glamorous and refined and genteel and no, no, no.

As for douching and why not wait til morning - what if Patsy thought it needed to be done without JR's knowledge, and she wasn't sure she'd get a chance in the morning but knew she had time at night while he was in bed asleep? If you're off enough to think it's a good idea to douche a child that age, you're off enough to make it a late night event in secret.

Nuisanceposter

That skull fracture had to have made a loud and sickening sound when it was incurred - I wouldn't be surprised if people with no medical experience would be able to feel the fracture in her skull under her scalp and know that coupled with the sound of the fracture and any bleeding/seizures that may have been going on that brain-death was coming, if she survived.

You could be right here, I also reckon JonBenet was whacked about the head, in addition to her skull fracture. I sometimes visualise someone holding JonBenet by the neck either directly or via her shirt-collar, whilst simultaneously hitting her with the other hand, or some object?

Maybe whatever had been going on before the head wound was so bad, so taboo, so much of something they'd never want known that they thought the only way to ensure the secret was to eliminate the one they feared wouldn't keep the secret.

Thats what I think, else why deny her medical assistance? Douching or cleaning up your daughter is hardly a capital offence.

Personally, I think Patsy just wasn't going to accept a daughter that was less than perfect (as the cosmetic surgery scare after the golf club incident shows), and that skull fracture was an alarm that less than perfect stage had been breached and crossed, with no return, no hope for salvation of Patsy's reputation as Super-Capable Wife/Mother/Friend/Patient/Christian...and my stars, reputation is just everything to a Southern girl. It's who she is, and how she's known. Patsy was okay being the former Miss WV who battled ovarian cancer and won, but she not about to be the former Miss WV who cared for her invalid daughter after a domestic accident left the daughter brain-dead. That was just not glamorous and refined and genteel and no, no, no.

Whatever it was, it was serious enough to deny JonBenet medical attention, and the decision to murder her e.g. The killer could not be knowledgable about the extent of her head injuries, and not fully understand they were killing JonBenet. If JonBenet was trully discarded like a rag-doll because she would no longer satisfy Patsy's emotional needs then thats pretty callous.

As for douching and why not wait til morning - what if Patsy thought it needed to be done without JR's knowledge, and she wasn't sure she'd get a chance in the morning but knew she had time at night while he was in bed asleep? If you're off enough to think it's a good idea to douche a child that age, you're off enough to make it a late night event in secret.

Well it occurred soon after JonBenet's pineapple snack, for me there is something not right about that picture, maybe Patsy was secretly sadistic towards JonBenet, who knows?

Toilet Rage sounds good if events went much as they were recounted in the Ramsey's version of events, but the forensic evidence suggests otherwise, they were not even bothered that she was wearing urine-soaked underwear and longjohns, with a soiled pair lying on her bathroom floor, all direct evidence of JonBenet's toileting issue, open in plain view, thats hardly consistent with staging the wine-cellar crime-scene, the intention of which is to remove evidence of toileting issues as a motive and fake another e.g. the garrote?

And according to the Toilet Rage theory because JonBenet died shortly after having her skull fracture inflicted, her killer(s), had at least 2-3 hours to make sure the details looked convincing?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

It wasn't just my theory- the forensic specialists who studied the autopsy also thought so; estimates place the garroting occurring about an hour after the head bash. The petechiae tell us she was still alive, though I don't feel the Rs thought she was alive. If she was unconscious from the head blow, which is pretty likely, she wouldn't have struggled while being strangled. If she was on her stomach with the strangler pulling the cord from behind, as forensics suggests, they would not have seen facial expression or facial movement either.
Coroner Meyer also felt these events occurred close together; his final analysis states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with cerebro-cranial trauma."

 

[JMO8778]

It wasn't just my theory- the forensic specialists who studied the autopsy also thought so; estimates place the garroting occurring about an hour after the head bash. The petechiae tell us she was still alive, though I don't feel the Rs thought she was alive. If she was unconscious from the head blow, which is pretty likely, she wouldn't have struggled while being strangled. If she was on her stomach with the strangler pulling the cord from behind, as forensics suggests, they would not have seen facial expression or facial movement either.
Coroner Meyer also felt these events occurred close together; his final analysis states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with cerebro-cranial trauma."

yes,and JR lies in DOI,saying the coroner noted she died of strangulation.he knows saying only that it is to his advantage.which gives the head blow more credibility as coming first,IMO.
he takes a lot of things out of context,and the average lay person w. no medical experience or knowledge might buy it.
JR is so full of it.

 

[JMO8778]

Nuisanceposter

You could be right here, I also reckon JonBenet was whacked about the head, in addition to her skull fracture. I sometimes visualise someone holding JonBenet by the neck either directly or via her shirt-collar, whilst simultaneously hitting her with the other hand, or some object?


Thats what I think, else why deny her medical assistance? Douching or cleaning up your daughter is hardly a capital offence.


.

but the marks on her neck would have been obvious...obvious abuse.there would have been no way to explain them away,esp. that thumb print.I think Patsy went for silencing JB,over being arrested for child abuse.her reputation would never be the same.I think in her mind,playing the victim of an 'intruder' who killed JB would be the lesser evil of the two.Plus,she was probably afraid of what JB would tell authorities if she came to...that mom lost it,and was twisting her shirt collar and strangling her,etc.
but you do make good points,UK.I've always wondered if it's being too nice to think of it simply as a domestic accident.

 

[UKGuy]

but the marks on her neck would have been obvious...obvious abuse.there would have been no way to explain them away,esp. that thumb print.I think Patsy went for silencing JB,over being arrested for child abuse.her reputation would never be the same.I think in her mind,playing the victim of an 'intruder' who killed JB would be the lesser evil of the two.Plus,she was probably afraid of what JB would tell authorities if she came to...that mom lost it,and was twisting her shirt collar and strangling her,etc.
but you do make good points,UK.I've always wondered if it's being too nice to think of it simply as a domestic accident.

JMO8778,

but you do make good points,UK.I've always wondered if it's being too nice to think of it simply as a domestic accident.

Absolutely, that view of affairs interprets events in terms of domestic relations, it is charitable, even sympathetic to Patsy, indirectly absolving her of the kind of guilt and ignomy that would be heaped upon say John, if he was the prime suspect.

This is why I reckon the Toilet Rage theory is popular, it explains events through a filter of emotions, portraying Patsy as the perfect mother, host etc, to the less than perfect mom who loses it, not only can many people identify with that, but it offers an exlanation for JonBenet's death.


.

 

[UKGuy]

It wasn't just my theory- the forensic specialists who studied the autopsy also thought so; estimates place the garroting occurring about an hour after the head bash. The petechiae tell us she was still alive, though I don't feel the Rs thought she was alive. If she was unconscious from the head blow, which is pretty likely, she wouldn't have struggled while being strangled. If she was on her stomach with the strangler pulling the cord from behind, as forensics suggests, they would not have seen facial expression or facial movement either.
Coroner Meyer also felt these events occurred close together; his final analysis states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with cerebro-cranial trauma."

DeeDee249,

Coroner Meyer also felt these events occurred close together; his final analysis states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with cerebro-cranial trauma."

I know but I am only locking these facts into your theory since they do have consequences.

ASSOCIATED with cerebro-cranial trauma."

Yes but its likely that all Coroner Meyer is doing here is stating the obvious e.g. that her head fracture would have led to some degree of hypoxia.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

It was discussed by other forensic specialists that the skull fracture would have been fatal on it's own- and death would have likely occurred in about an hour or less. There was no organization (white blood cells coming to the rescue)in the bleeding under the scalp, and no coagulation- if she'd lived longer she'd have bled more.
There were petechiae in her lungs as well as the eyes and throat- so she was alive when strangled. The red color of the ligature furrow suggests this as well; if she was dead when it was applied, the furrow would be white. So these too events HAD to occur very close together.

 

[rashomon]

It was discussed by other forensic specialists that the skull fracture would have been fatal on it's own- and death would have likely occurred in about an hour or less. There was no organization (white blood cells coming to the rescue)in the bleeding under the scalp, and no coagulation- if she'd lived longer she'd have bled more.
There were petechiae in her lungs as well as the eyes and throat- so she was alive when strangled. The red color of the ligature furrow suggests this as well; if she was dead when it was applied, the furrow would be white. So these too events HAD to occur very close together.

Also, had she lived longer after the head injury, her brain would probably have shown more than just mild swelling.

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

Also, had she lived longer after the head injury, her brain would probably have shown more than just mild swelling.

jmo

rashomon,

So the important question is how long a gap was there between the head-blow and her being garroted?


.

 

[UKGuy]

It was discussed by other forensic specialists that the skull fracture would have been fatal on it's own- and death would have likely occurred in about an hour or less. There was no organization (white blood cells coming to the rescue)in the bleeding under the scalp, and no coagulation- if she'd lived longer she'd have bled more.
There were petechiae in her lungs as well as the eyes and throat- so she was alive when strangled. The red color of the ligature furrow suggests this as well; if she was dead when it was applied, the furrow would be white. So these too events HAD to occur very close together.

DeeDee249,
Excellent analysis, so how long was the time-gap between the head-blow and strangulation?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

You could be right here, I also reckon JonBenet was whacked about the head, in addition to her skull fracture. I sometimes visualise someone holding JonBenet by the neck either directly or via her shirt-collar, whilst simultaneously hitting her with the other hand, or some object?

I really do wonder just exactly how much she may have been roughed up before the head wound. It is so hard for me to really visualize the Ramseys actually physically assaulting JonBenet sometimes...but I just don't see enough proof that there was anyone else in that house that night, or enough proof that the Rs are anywhere near as innocent as they want people to believe.

The ligature is such a bizarre method, too. It certainly worked in that people don't want to believe a parent would strangle their own child like that, but was there another reason for the ligature? The only thing I can come up with is that the one who incurred the head wound was afraid that prior damage to JonBenet's neck would be evident, and wished to confuse/conceal it if not just throw cops off the track of the parents.

I almost think that by the time the cord was tied, the person tying it didn't want any chance of JonBenet ever being able to say anything about what was going on before that, especially if the ligature followed the head wound by minutes and not more like an hour. If only her body didn't show abnormalities consistent with prior sexual abuse (coupled with her toileting issues, classic sign)...then perhaps I wouldn't question how intentional this was or wasn't. Or were the toileting issues because of all of the stress and responsibility she was under to be a pageant winner? I don't know.

At the same time, I gotta defer to Steve Thomas. I believe he knows way more than he's ever said, and I can believe Schiller was right when he said Thomas knows more about the case than anyone else...so if Thomas believes there was some type of toileting issue or corporal cleaning scenario going on prior to all Hell breaking loose on poor little JonBenet, then I'd have to say that I think he might be onto something, no matter whether undies with Hershey stripes in them and dried urine stains on bed and victim were found or not.

I just don't get why Thomas gives JR such a pass. IMO, JR definitely knew JonBenet was dead in the basement before Patsy called 911 and friends, or he would have stopped her and most likely made the 911 call himself - without calling friends.

 

[Solace]

I really do wonder just exactly how much she may have been roughed up before the head wound. It is so hard for me to really visualize the Ramseys actually physically assaulting JonBenet sometimes...but I just don't see enough proof that there was anyone else in that house that night, or enough proof that the Rs are anywhere near as innocent as they want people to believe.

The ligature is such a bizarre method, too. It certainly worked in that people don't want to believe a parent would strangle their own child like that, but was there another reason for the ligature? The only thing I can come up with is that the one who incurred the head wound was afraid that prior damage to JonBenet's neck would be evident, and wished to confuse/conceal it if not just throw cops off the track of the parents.

I almost think that by the time the cord was tied, the person tying it didn't want any chance of JonBenet ever being able to say anything about what was going on before that, especially if the ligature followed the head wound by minutes and not more like an hour. If only her body didn't show abnormalities consistent with prior sexual abuse (coupled with her toileting issues, classic sign)...then perhaps I wouldn't question how intentional this was or wasn't. Or were the toileting issues because of all of the stress and responsibility she was under to be a pageant winner? I don't know.

At the same time, I gotta defer to Steve Thomas. I believe he knows way more than he's ever said, and I can believe Schiller was right when he said Thomas knows more about the case than anyone else...so if Thomas believes there was some type of toileting issue or corporal cleaning scenario going on prior to all Hell breaking loose on poor little JonBenet, then I'd have to say that I think he might be onto something, no matter whether undies with Hershey stripes in them and dried urine stains on bed and victim were found or not.

I just don't get why Thomas gives JR such a pass. IMO, JR definitely knew JonBenet was dead in the basement before Patsy called 911 and friends, or he would have stopped her and most likely made the 911 call himself - without calling friends.

I think she was slammed against a hard object, say in the bathroom, and then I think she fell and the ensuing crack happened. I don't think she was whacked about the head. There are two black and blue marks on the each side of her brain, as if someone were shaking her. I think it was a complete disregard for her size when she was thrown - I just think it happened that way. Patsy, I believe, convinced hereself it was an accident and therefore she is not a killer by any stretch of the imagination.

Lord, what does Burke know. I don't think he knows about the actual killiing. I think he did hear his mother that night though. How could he not hear her. There is no way she was able to control her voice all the time - just did not happen. He heard his mother. I would be money on it.

 

[JMO8778]

I just don't get why Thomas gives JR such a pass. IMO, JR definitely knew JonBenet was dead in the basement before Patsy called 911 and friends, or he would have stopped her and most likely made the 911 call himself - without calling friends.

I don't either,for the above reason,as well as several other things,like LE being told to treat them as victims-not as suspects.That's pretty evident that someone knew before the fact.
The only thing I can logically think of is that there is evidence of JR's involvement (before the 911 call) that he doesn't want made public,in case it should ever come to trial.Although I don't think it's anything regarding molestation,since he is willing to give him a public pass on that.

 

[Albert18]

I just don't get why Thomas gives JR such a pass. IMO, JR definitely knew JonBenet was dead in the basement before Patsy called 911 and friends, or he would have stopped her and most likely made the 911 call himself - without calling friends.

What happened that morning works.

* John wakes up thinking he is going to Michigan.
* After he gets out of the shower, Patsy goes into her "finding the ransom note" act.
* Patsy shows John that JonBenet is missing.
* They go downstairs so John can read the ransom note.
* Either while John is still reading the ransom note or shortly thereafter, Patsy starts the 911 call.
* John recognizes the ransom note is written by Patsy.
* Put the ransom note together with the fact JonBenet is missing and John must have assumed Patsy had done something to JonBenet.

First of all, John has almost no time to think. Why would he stop her from calling 911? Why would he stop friends from being called. He already knows the ransom note is a fake.

I don't think people really appreciate the emotions of that morning.

Get up some morning, have your spouse tell you one of your children is missing, have them give you a long letter to read, the letter says your child is missing and it appears to be written by your spouse. It slowly dawns on you your child is probably dead. And meanwhile your fidgeting spouse is starting to call 911. And you are supposed to do what? And remember your other child is standing right there. And you are in your underwear and the police will arrive in minutes.

 

[UKGuy]

I really do wonder just exactly how much she may have been roughed up before the head wound. It is so hard for me to really visualize the Ramseys actually physically assaulting JonBenet sometimes...but I just don't see enough proof that there was anyone else in that house that night, or enough proof that the Rs are anywhere near as innocent as they want people to believe.

The ligature is such a bizarre method, too. It certainly worked in that people don't want to believe a parent would strangle their own child like that, but was there another reason for the ligature? The only thing I can come up with is that the one who incurred the head wound was afraid that prior damage to JonBenet's neck would be evident, and wished to confuse/conceal it if not just throw cops off the track of the parents.

I almost think that by the time the cord was tied, the person tying it didn't want any chance of JonBenet ever being able to say anything about what was going on before that, especially if the ligature followed the head wound by minutes and not more like an hour. If only her body didn't show abnormalities consistent with prior sexual abuse (coupled with her toileting issues, classic sign)...then perhaps I wouldn't question how intentional this was or wasn't. Or were the toileting issues because of all of the stress and responsibility she was under to be a pageant winner? I don't know.

At the same time, I gotta defer to Steve Thomas. I believe he knows way more than he's ever said, and I can believe Schiller was right when he said Thomas knows more about the case than anyone else...so if Thomas believes there was some type of toileting issue or corporal cleaning scenario going on prior to all Hell breaking loose on poor little JonBenet, then I'd have to say that I think he might be onto something, no matter whether undies with Hershey stripes in them and dried urine stains on bed and victim were found or not.

I just don't get why Thomas gives JR such a pass. IMO, JR definitely knew JonBenet was dead in the basement before Patsy called 911 and friends, or he would have stopped her and most likely made the 911 call himself - without calling friends.

Nuisanceposter,

The ligature is such a bizarre method, too. It certainly worked in that people don't want to believe a parent would strangle their own child like that, but was there another reason for the ligature? The only thing I can come up with is that the one who incurred the head wound was afraid that prior damage to JonBenet's neck would be evident, and wished to confuse/conceal it if not just throw cops off the track of the parents.

Yes and offer a visible cause of death, an alternative is that it was revision of a prior staging?

I just don't get why Thomas gives JR such a pass. IMO, JR definitely knew JonBenet was dead in the basement before Patsy called 911 and friends, or he would have stopped her and most likely made the 911 call himself - without calling friends.

Steve Thomas may have simply been playing the classical cat and mouse game that is played out between suspects and investigators e.g. minimise the the suspects sphere of action ahead of any trial.

Patsy is the main suspect because she is directly linked by fiber evidence, but in truth that is only to the wine-cellar staging, but thats enough for most people to justify a Toilet Rage theory.

John is also a suspect since he also has fibers linking him to the crime-scene and these are to JonBenet's genitals, which suggests either staging, molestation or both?

What was John's response to how those fibers arrived in JonBenet's genital area, something along the lines of: How dare you disgrace my relationship with my daughter. Which is of course a very defensive answer, which offers neither yes or no, so assuming the forensic evidence is valid, then John may have been involved in the homicide of JonBenet.

I say may because Patsy may have wiped JonBenet down using John's Israeli manufactured shirt. So the follow up to that is how come JonBenet is naked from the waist down and Johns black shirt arrived in such close proximity, since John stated he took some sedative and took to his bed?

Well, speculating, JonBenet must have been in the same room as John's shirt, presumably his bedroom, and following a sexual assault she was wiped down with it? So who sexually assaulted her is the big one?

The magic key to explaining a lot of the evidence may be accepting Patsy was fully aware that JonBenet was being molested, I could expand further but will not, this would offer a rationale as to why Patsy garroted JonBenet and took part in the staging.

The Toilet Rage theory although coherent simply does not explain why so much violence was used on JonBenet, why she was denied medical assistance?

Douching, losing it over bedwetting are not capital offences, it does not really offer a convincing rationale as to why John joins Patsy, never mind roping in Burke, to collude in JonBenet's homicide, which is a Capital offence.

.