Learn Something New Every Day

[Britt]

FYI, there's no such thing as a 'terrorist's garrote.'

Which is why I called it "phony."

But more to the point, in the Ramsey case there's no such thing as a terrorist (except for, perhaps, the domestic child-abusing kind) or a garrote.

It was a stage prop created by the perp as part of her presentation of a terrorist-type, i.e. "foreign faction," kidnapping murder.

The thing on JonBenet's neck looked more like a starter cord on a lawn mower.

A garrote is a garrote.

Correct. And the stage prop in this case wasn't one.

 

[Britt]

...in addition to the 7-8 cc of subdural hemorrhage there was also a film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. That's what Cyril Wecht obviously left out when claiming there was so little blood in JB's brain. And that's what Steve Thomas meant when he wrote that JB's brain had extensively hemorrhaged, the blood having spread over the whole right half of her brain.
There also was an extensive linear area of purple contusion underlying the linear skull fracture from the front to the back of the head.

So there was bleeding, swelling and contusion of the brain, and forensic pathologist Dr. Spitz saying there was no question that the head blow came first.

Thank you, Rashomon. I saw the phrase "extensive area of scalp hemorrhage" in the autopsy (page 7) and it sounded bloody to me.

Also, the experts cited in PMPT say the head injury came first, estimating 10 to 45 minutes prior to her death.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Which is why I called it "phony."

But more to the point, in the Ramsey case there's no such thing as a terrorist (except for, perhaps, the domestic child-abusing kind) or a garrote.

It was a stage prop created by the perp as part of her presentation of a terrorist-type, i.e. "foreign faction," kidnapping murder.

The thing on JonBenet's neck looked more like a starter cord on a lawn mower.


Correct. And the stage prop in this case wasn't one.

The whole staging thing is bogus. The garrote was used along with the headbash to murder JBR. ITS THAT SIMPLE.

Nothing fits a staged scene, everything fits a perp who left all his murder evidence behind.

If the whole thing was staged, ala the moon landing, why would there be fiber cord evidence in JBR's bedroom? Why bother with pineapple and tea? Why make it look like there was a late-nighter with JBR in the kitchen if you're attempting to make it look like FFDI?

Its time to move on from the staging thing. Its a loser.

 

[UKGuy]

The whole staging thing is bogus. The garrote was used along with the headbash to murder JBR. ITS THAT SIMPLE.

Nothing fits a staged scene, everything fits a perp who left all his murder evidence behind.

If the whole thing was staged, ala the moon landing, why would there be fiber cord evidence in JBR's bedroom? Why bother with pineapple and tea? Why make it look like there was a late-nighter with JBR in the kitchen if you're attempting to make it look like FFDI?

Its time to move on from the staging thing. Its a loser.

Holdontoyourhat,

If its that simple please explain why a garrote was required? A ligature would be sufficient to asphyxiate a six-year old girl. In fact why a ligature, while you are at it, since a manual strangulation or a hand smothering would also be sufficient to kill JonBenet?

What would be simpler than leaving JonBenet's corpse in-toto, why wipe her down, why change her underwear, why introduce her barbie-gown, why style her hair, why leave her wearing her white gap top, but replace her black velvet pants with white longjohns, why sexually assault her, which Dr Myer opines as a digital penetration, why place her in the wine-cellar wrapped in white-blankets, what sexual predator requires blankets?

If its all so simple tells us how all this hangs together?

.

 

[Britt]

This is possible but the head injury was not visible, even Dr John Meyer was not aware of it or its extent until he did the internal post-mortem.

True, but the perp couldn't have known at the time what might become visible before the staged drama could be completed.

Sectioning her hair to make the garrote more prominent is an option, but like her sexual assault it would have been discovered eventually.

True, but what could the stager do about that at the time? IMO she was in full-tilt Escape Mode. She couldn't control what might be discovered later beneath the staging. All she could do was create an escape route built on diversionary tactics and time. Given that time and some powerful defense attorneys, she could handle the complications later, which is exactly what she/they did.

The staging was superficial, but staging is by definition superficial, its sole goal being a presentation to divert and confuse and buy time.

Maybe the Ramseys also hoped their concocted high drama, along with their status and connections, would be enough to dazzle local LE and avoid something like a full autopsy.

More likely, though, the plan was simply to divert, perform, then exit stage Boulder, which they tried to do a half hour or so after the curtain fell. After that, they'd be safely behind their lawyers and effective legal games.

Also her hair was embedded into the knotting surrounding the garrote. Implying haste on the stagers behalf, and less attention to detail.

Maybe the idea to tie up the hair came after beginning the knot-tying. Maybe that's when the stager realized the hair might interfere with the "garrote's" visibility and effect.

I am inclined to think a lot of JonBenet's disposition in the wine-cellar is not so much a staging to deflect attention onto an intruder, but more to cover up prior aspects of her homicide.

I agree. I also think it was to hide her from Burke and to buy time for the invited guests to contaminate the crime scene.

Take the sexual assault, now assuming it is part of the staging, why is there the need to conceal it? Firstly by wiping her down and changing her underwear, and possibly those longjohns?

IMO the vaginal injury wasn't staging. The stager tried to hide it.

IMO the staging focused all attention on the "garrote" and built the entire drama around a terrorish kidnapping. The stager intended to hide the head and vaginal injuries, so they were not incorporated in any way into the staging. Also, as you point out, one of the reasons JB was hidden in the wine cellar was probably to remove her from the original scene and circumstances of the crime. The final (staged) crime scene was all about hiding the true details of JB's death.

Its as if JonBenet had already been dressed and her hair styled with the intention of dumping her outdoors?

Certainly a possibility. The perp was an amateur. The staging process could have been a work in progess with various ideas being tried and abandoned.

...if you consider the head bash ocurred first, then why did someone go and search out some cord, wrap it around JonBenet's neck and asphyxiate her?

The perp, seeking an escape route, had to take the crime in a whole other direction from what really happened. She had to invent a whole other scenario. I believe the cord was used both with enough pressure to really strangle JB (IOW, finish her off, just in case she wasn't already dead) and to incorporate into the staging as a "garrote."

 

[Brefie]

Nothing fits a staged scene, everything fits a perp who left all his murder evidence behind.

Oh contraire, mon frere......seems to me that NOTHING was 'left behind'. Everything belonged in the house...there was even a couple things missing.
Of the things that are missing, the biggest one is EVIDENCE OF AN INTRUDER!!

 

[UKGuy]

Oh contraire, mon frere......seems to me that NOTHING was 'left behind'. Everything belonged in the house...there was even a couple things missing.
Of the things that are missing, the biggest one is EVIDENCE OF AN INTRUDER!!

Brefie,

Yes this is a tough one for IDI specialists, they always cite that degraded dna though.

An item or two that may be missing are JonBenet's underwear, the ones she wore to the Whites party, and her socks, not heard much about those?


.

 

[Brefie]

hmmm...the degraded DNA. Now this stranger was supposed to have taken JBR from her room to the kitchen to the basement where s/he sexually abused her and then killed her and hid her in a room in a remote corner of the house and removed him/herself from the home........all the while not leaving ANY fibers ANYWHERE.
Yet we continue to focus on this DNA that is so remote it may well have come from a factory worker's sneeze or cough ???????

OKEY DOKEY, THEN!!!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

hmmm...the degraded DNA. Now this stranger was supposed to have taken JBR from her room to the kitchen to the basement where s/he sexually abused her and then killed her and hid her in a room in a remote corner of the house and removed him/herself from the home........all the while not leaving ANY fibers ANYWHERE.
Yet we continue to focus on this DNA that is so remote it may well have come from a factory worker's sneeze or cough ???????

OKEY DOKEY, THEN!!!

I rather doubt JBR was ever in the kitchen. The perp was. Its a small point, but it illustrates how easy it is to assume things.

 

[Brefie]

I rather doubt JBR was ever in the kitchen. The perp was. Its a small point, but it illustrates how easy it is to assume things.

Assumption?

Pineapple IN JonBenet - Pineapple ON table.

Should I assume she was in the yard???

 

[BBB167893]

"Its time to move on from the staging thing. Its a loser."

I'll be sure to tell that to the FBI and the pahologists.

"Yet we continue to focus on this DNA that is so remote it may well have come from a factory worker's sneeze or cough ???????"

Messed up, isn't it?

 

[UKGuy]

The staging was superficial, but staging is by definition superficial, its sole goal being a presentation to divert and confuse and buy time.

Sure but there is some staging that appears redundant.

Maybe the idea to tie up the hair came after beginning the knot-tying. Maybe that's when the stager realized the hair might interfere with the "garrote's" visibility and effect.

Possibly, so the stager searched out some hair-ties and sectioned her hair, then proceeeded with the garrote, and after attentively sectioning her hair proceeds to embed her hair in the garrote knotting?

The perp, seeking an escape route, had to take the crime in a whole other direction from what really happened. She had to invent a whole other scenario. I believe the cord was used both with enough pressure to really strangle JB (IOW, finish her off, just in case she wasn't already dead) and to incorporate into the staging as a "garrote."

But why use a ligature why not just smother her with a pillow or a hand, or at most manually strangle her, why employ a ligature? Then add a paintbrush handle which now most definitely links a Ramsey to the crime-scene? In a sense although the garrote can be viewed as staging, without it, and a patent sexual assault, JonBenet's homicide would look more like the work of a sexual predator?

I agree. I also think it was to hide her from Burke and to buy time for the invited guests to contaminate the crime scene.

Could be, but they thought the time bought may only be lets say 30 minutes at most, a bungled LEA invetigation advanced that one.

IMO the vaginal injury wasn't staging. The stager tried to hide it.

mmm methinks the hiding constitutes staging.

IMO the staging focused all attention on the "garrote" and built the entire drama around a terrorish kidnapping. The stager intended to hide the head and vaginal injuries, so they were not incorporated in any way into the staging. Also, as you point out, one of the reasons JB was hidden in the wine cellar was probably to remove her from the original scene and circumstances of the crime. The final (staged) crime scene was all about hiding the true details of JB's death.

The emphasised text seems credible. I dont think the stager was aware of the head injuries, the wine-cellar stager may not be the same person who killed JonBenet, neither Dr Meyer or anyone else know JonBenet had sustained head trauma until the autopsy stage.

Certainly a possibility. The perp was an amateur. The staging process could have been a work in progess with various ideas being tried and abandoned.

Or different people adding and removing forensic evidence?


.

 

[Toltec]

Patsy has said that on early morning take-off trips she would place the kids in the car in their pajamas and they would continue to sleep on the airplane.

What if she had JonBenet put her playclothes back on when they arrived home? It was winter time and my guess is that the pajamas would be too flimsy to wear outside.

In the middle of the night Patsy does her potty routine with JonBenet and discovers that she soiled herself? That would explain the dirty pants in JB's bathroom, her being wiped down, and the size 12 panties Patsy puts on her after she was mortally wounded....you know, the fact that JonBenet did not like to be awakened and would scream bloody murder. JonBenet would have been especially exhausted that day and being told by her mom to get out of bed would have set her off.

 

[concernedperson]

Patsy has said that on early morning take-off trips she would place the kids in the car in their pajamas and they would continue to sleep on the airplane.

What if she had JonBenet put her playclothes back on when they arrived home? It was winter time and my guess is that the pajamas would be too flimsy to wear outside.

In the middle of the night Patsy does her potty routine with JonBenet and discovers that she soiled herself? That would explain the dirty pants in JB's bathroom, her being wiped down, and the size 12 panties Patsy puts on her after she was mortally wounded....you know, the fact that JonBenet did not like to be awakened and would scream bloody murder. JonBenet would have been especially exhausted that day and being told by her mom to get out of bed would have set her off.

I honestly believe anything would set Patsy off if it wasn't in her control. As long as the agenda suits her...she is OK but when it doesn't....expect fireworks.

 

[Britt]

Sure but there is some staging that appears redundant.

Which staging is redundant? Can you elaborate? (Sorry if I missed this from an earlier post.)

Possibly, so the stager searched out some hair-ties and sectioned her hair, then proceeeded with the garrote, and after attentively sectioning her hair proceeds to embed her hair in the garrote knotting?

At that moment the perp undoubtedly cared less about perfect hair arranging than about what she was trying to accomplish. She probably wasn't concerned about hair in the knots, maybe just wanted the hair out of the way so the "garrote" would be very visible... but even with ponytails, stray and loose hair could've gotten entangled.

But why use a ligature why not just smother her with a pillow or a hand, or at most manually strangle her, why employ a ligature?

IMO, so there'd be an obvious prop-supported cause of death, again, to divert loudly from the head injury... also, for drama - the ligature more effectively fit the foreign-faction kidnapping theme.

Then add a paintbrush handle which now most definitely links a Ramsey to the crime-scene?

So do the pad and pen used to write the ransom note.

 

[aussiesheila]

EVERYONE has been so convinced for years..... that Patsy did it. WHERE IS DEFINITIVE PROOF???? goodness people. MAYBE she has truly been railroaded???? Not making the best of decisions at all but geesh. IF MEDIA intensity had turned you early? don't you owe it to JONBENET to truly rethink everything else? OR are you a puppet to the media?

IMO

Santa had prepared JonBenet for that night by informing her on the night of the party on the 23rd that he was going to pay her a special visit after Christmas. GM came uninvited to that party to case the joint. CG who bore a resemblance to JAR came for a walk by the house on Christmas Day to check the exterior of the house.

JonBenet dressed herself in the size 12 panties before she went to the White’s party because she didn’t want to come out of her room and go to her bathroom where the correct size ones were.

After Patsy and John had gone to bed one of the perpetrators (Santa) let himself in through the kitchen door, bringing the (drugged) pineapple with him, emptied it into the bowl and fed it to JonBenet. A perpetrator also drew the red heart on the palm of her hand and tied her hair up in one extra hairtie to stop it from impeding the application of the neck ligature.

JonBenet was subjected to a session of sexual abuse/torture during which she was tied by the wrists and had her arms suspended above her head, strangled many times to the point of passing out before being revived, stungunned and sexually assaulted with a paintbrush handle. When she screamed she was permanently asphyxiated with ligature and bashed over the head with a baseball bat.

Since Patsy had heard the scream and had come downstairs shortly after JonBenet was killed, she knew long before she ever rang 911 that JonBenet was dead.

The body was hidden in the wine cellar, lovingly wrapped by Santa in the little white blanket, the perpetrators intending for it not to be found there and were to come back when it was safe to do so and dump it in the mountains.

Patsy brought the pink Barbie nightgown down to the cellar intending to re-dress JonBenet, but when faced with the sight of the body couldn’t do it and dropped the nightgown beside the body.

Patsy wrote the note. She knows who killed JonBenet. They were associates of the people she allowed JonBenet to be in the company of for whatever reason. These people forced her to write the note.

John’s only involvement in the crime was that he was away on business a lot and didn’t know what was going on while he was away

Burke was a complete innocent

This scenario might be complicated, sci-fi, over the top, anything else derogatory you like to pin on it

BUT -

IT FITS ALL THE EVIDENCE

 

[BBB167893]

First of all, no one who knows anything about me will say I'm a media puppet! But on to business:

"I honestly believe anything would set Patsy off if it wasn't in her control. As long as the agenda suits her...she is OK but when it doesn't....expect fireworks."

I've known people like that, concerned person. Plenty.

aussiesheila, I have to admit, you make a damn fine effort. But for now, when two or more hypotheses seek to explain the same evidence, the simplest one is to be preferred.

 

[Solace]

IMO

Santa had prepared JonBenet for that night by informing her on the night of the party on the 23rd that he was going to pay her a special visit after Christmas. GM came uninvited to that party to case the joint. CG who bore a resemblance to JAR came for a walk by the house on Christmas Day to check the exterior of the house.

JonBenet dressed herself in the size 12 panties before she went to the White’s party because she didn’t want to come out of her room and go to her bathroom where the correct size ones were.

After Patsy and John had gone to bed one of the perpetrators (Santa) let himself in through the kitchen door, bringing the (drugged) pineapple with him, emptied it into the bowl and fed it to JonBenet. A perpetrator also drew the red heart on the palm of her hand and tied her hair up in one extra hairtie to stop it from impeding the application of the neck ligature.

JonBenet was subjected to a session of sexual abuse/torture during which she was tied by the wrists and had her arms suspended above her head, strangled many times to the point of passing out before being revived, stungunned and sexually assaulted with a paintbrush handle. When she screamed she was permanently asphyxiated with ligature and bashed over the head with a baseball bat.

Since Patsy had heard the scream and had come downstairs shortly after JonBenet was killed, she knew long before she ever rang 911 that JonBenet was dead.

The body was hidden in the wine cellar, lovingly wrapped by Santa in the little white blanket, the perpetrators intending for it not to be found there and were to come back when it was safe to do so and dump it in the mountains.

Patsy brought the pink Barbie nightgown down to the cellar intending to re-dress JonBenet, but when faced with the sight of the body couldn’t do it and dropped the nightgown beside the body.

Patsy wrote the note. She knows who killed JonBenet. They were associates of the people she allowed JonBenet to be in the company of for whatever reason. These people forced her to write the note.

John’s only involvement in the crime was that he was away on business a lot and didn’t know what was going on while he was away

Burke was a complete innocent

This scenario might be complicated, sci-fi, over the top, anything else derogatory you like to pin on it

BUT -

IT FITS ALL THE EVIDENCE

With all due respect and I do not mean to be rude, but your theory is absurd.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

With all due respect and I do not mean to be rude, but your theory is absurd.

For many reasons, but the main things that stand out to me are:

1. JonBenet's wrists do not show any signs that she was restrained by them while alive. I would definitely think there would be bruises on her wrists from being molested while standing on a chair with her hands tied overhead, especially if a stun gun is being used on her.

2. I cannot imagine Patsy knowingly and willingly allowing anyone, let alone a group of pedophiles, to sexually abuse JonBenet - especially on Christmas night when the Rs have an early flight out of state planned for the next morning.

3. I see no evidence that FW would have been involved in such a thing, or that JE would be his contact at BPD that is enabling some pedophile ring to operate.

 

[BBB167893]

1. JonBenet's wrists do not show any signs that she was restrained by them while alive. I would definitely think there would be bruises on her wrists from being molested while standing on a chair with her hands tied overhead, especially if a stun gun is being used on her.

Right, because the wrist ties were so loose they slipped right off.