Let me hear from you if you think the R's are innocent

  • #41
RedChief said:
Whoa, BC, the evidence doesn't suggest that JonBenet was raped in the ordinary sense. It suggests that she was poked in the vagina with a stick. If you want to call that rape, that's your prerogative; depends on how you define the word. Unless Burke is a beaver, his prepubescent penis wouldn't scratch the hymen.

Whoa, BC, JonBenet's hymen wasn't gone except for a rim of tissue between the 10 and 2 o'clock positions. You got that from Schiller. He got that wrong in his book. In the autopsy report it says the hymen was a rim of tissue from the 2 o'clock to the 10 o'clock position (clockwise), not from 10 to 2. What you are describing is 4/12ths (33.33 %) of a complete circle; what Meyer (he performed the autopsy, not Schiller) described was 8/12ths (66.66 %) of a complete circle; a normal hymen configuration, as I and others have already pointed out to you on numerous occasions. Schiller incorrectly described the hymen when he said, in PMPT, "What remained of the hymen was a rim of tissue between the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions." It was in this incorrect characterization and description that folks got the impression that part of the hymen was missing; it wasn't.

Whoa, BC, your conclusion about the acute and chronic injuries is incorrect. Both the injury to the hymen (the abrasion) and the injury to the vaginal wall directly behind it (the abrasion) were acute (neither was chronic). It is true that both these acute injuries suggest that the same person made them at the same time; probably with the paintbrush handle. Make of that what you will.

An added comment about something that BC didn't mention this time. Many have gotten the impression that a piece of hymen was missing and had gone missing either that night or sometime prior to that night. Many folks have gotten the impression that the hymen was torn that night. The coroner said it was abraded; he didn't say it was torn. If you want to replace the term, "abrasion", with the term, "tear", feel free to do so, even though that would be incorrect. Then you'd have that the hymen had been torn by the paintbrush handle (or whatever was used to inflict the injury--not a penis). Still not rape in the ordinary sense; more on the order of a sadistic gesture.

Thomas, himself, didn't suspect rape nor did he suspect chronic sexual abuse in the molestation sense. He suspected physical abuse; probably of the nature of corporal punishment for bed wetting.

Let's get our facts straight. Old myths die hard.


RedChief,

The hymen was GONE, as in disappeared, as in see ya. From the autopsy report:

"The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions."

The hymen was REPRESENTED by a rim of mucosal tissue. It can't be there and be represented at the same time. JonBenet's hymen was gone.

In regard to the Chronic injuries:

"All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflamation."
 
  • #42
"I don't believe I've ever known, or heard of anyone engaging in the kiddie pagents to the extreme as Patsy did."

My Husband and I used to have friends who's daughter was involved in pagents. When I say involved, I mean full time career. Their daughter was only 2 or 3 at the time, and they had half a house full of trophies and costumes. They were at it every weekend. The father even helped to sew her costumes. By now she's about 11 and I suspect she's still at it.

IMO-they were obsessed. At an unhealthy level. Their daughter will never know what it is like to be a "normal" little girl.

As I looked on google for her name...I found her.

http://www.coastalpageants.com/2004%20Web/2004PreteenWinner.htm
 
  • #43
BlueCrab said:
RedChief,

The hymen was GONE, as in disappeared, as in see ya. From the autopsy report:

"The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions."

The hymen was REPRESENTED by a rim of mucosal tissue. It can't be there and be represented at the same time. JonBenet's hymen was gone.

In regard to the Chronic injuries:

"All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflamation."

Blue Crab,
Since you and so many are certain you are right, and no one can change your mind, I welcome you to email me, I will lend you my password to Medscape ( however I believe anyone can register) .For now I will direct you to photographs of three, however differering in appearance, normal configurations of the hymen, the one on the right is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue approx. 3 o'clock to 11.
http://www.medscape.com/content/2003/00/46/82/468258/art-srm468258.fig5.jpg

edit..prepubertal hymen
 
  • #44
You know what? I'm afraid sometimes to voice my opinion regarding this topic because of the fear of being bashed over the head....

Ramsey's are not in jail.... hundreds if not over a thousand LE have looked at the evidence..... NO ONE CAN BE 10000% CERTAIN.... even on WS here, that they are guilty. Geesh.
 
  • #45
I am not on a fence, I am certain the Ramseys are innocent.
I will start with motive, the Ramseys had absolutely no motive to murder their child, their history is clearly that of loving parents. John had older girls who adored him, Patsy was the oldest of three girls ,this in itself offers patience and learned parenting skills, she clearly was devoted ,caring and sharing when it came to her child rearing. She was neither selfish nor distant. She was involved at every level with her children, in their schools, in their activities and in their homelife. Patsy was not a fanatical Christian in the sense that she isolated her family from others through either Christian home schooling or limiting relationships to only the "godly". Her children smiled often, were socially well adapted and shared their playtime with many, both among close friends and among neighborhood kids. No one had a bad thing to say about Patsy, unless they thought they could cash in, such as LHP months after the murder.
From the first moments the police arrived at the home, they lied about what they saw, they needed the killer to be a parent, in all of their claims they tried to shove this idea down the throats of the public through media leaks.
There were no footprints in the snow, because there was no snow on the walkways. (get over this) The doors were secured the windows were locked. In reality there were many windows unlocked, some with cords running Christmas lighting through them, others opened to allow for ventilation, and at least one door was ajar.
The door that showed tampering was said by police to be old tampering, however in interview the locksmith said this was not a fact , the door showed NEW tampering, and not only was this a fact but the police had deliberately twisted his words and LIED.
The spider web story, do you know when they discovered this web? Wasn't it after the murder on a fifty degree afternoon? No one knows the details of this twisted information.
No parent would have the need to clean their prints off of their own flashlight.
Putting a teabag in a glass is an odd habit that no one in the Ramsey household had ever done before, why would they choose that night to put a teabag in a glass. This is a clue, someone that does something this odd, could be known to friends or family members.
Jonbenet had a life sized barbie doll, you all think the barbie nightgown was hers, when in fact it could very well have been "barbie's nightgown" , which would add more perversion to this crime than a parent could muster.
Patsy's jacket was multi-colored, yet four fibers of red acrylic were attached to the tape over Jonbenet's mouth. Of course they are consistent, as they would be consistent with most red articles of clothing at Christmastime.
Many ,many fibers that can NOT be sourced to that household were on both her body, and on the blanket that covered her. We CAN NOT disregard these, they came from somewhere, they are not on the bed in the parents room, they are not on the bed in Burke's room, they are not to be found anywhere but on Jonbenet and that blanket. THIS is a huge clue. Sure one can ditch some clothing, but not ditch the fibers in every other area of the home.

The beaver hair, forget about Patsy owning beaver boots, this is a MYTH. There isn't a beaver hair in her closet, in her room, or anywhere else in that house.
Think however, about the fur found in her hands, she had no access to her dog that night, of which we are aware, this is a huge clue. If the police have sourced this , it has not leaked, if it turns out to be from her dog, we must re-think a few things.
Motive, motive, sadly there are about eight people surrounding this child and her family that had motives including but not limited to jealousy,obsession, fantasy, rage, we can name these people can't we. Even more sad, many of these people had keys to the house.
 
  • #46
RedChief,

My findings are not opinions. I quoted from the autopsy. There are acute and chronic injuries to JonBenet's vagina.
 
  • #47
BlueCrab said:
RedChief,

My findings are not opinions. I quoted from the autopsy. There are acute and chronic injuries to JonBenet's vagina.

Blue crab, I understand, you have quoted the autopsy, however, the way in which the hymen was described is in fact a normal hymen, the injuries described were indeed injuries, however they were acute injuries, which happened at the time of her murder. There is nothing, nothing to show chronic injury, I'm sorry there is just not. There is no one, NO ONE, who deals with sexually abused children that would take from this autopsy a conclusion of prior molestation.
 
  • #48
blueclouds said:
You know what? I'm afraid sometimes to voice my opinion regarding this topic because of the fear of being bashed over the head....

Head bashing is not allowed. Head bashers will find their posts removed and may be removed themselves. Please feel free to voice your opinion - whatever it is. Just do so in a manner that does not attack other members.


Moderator
 
  • #49
Jeana (DP) said:
AMEN!!!!! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Sounds like some people need to read the book where Steve Thomas describes the incestuous relationship between the Ramseys attorneys and the District Attorney in Boulder.

Crime, corruption and cover-up..........yeah - that's something that I would woo-hoo over....... :doh:
 
  • #50
sissi said:
Blue crab, I understand, you have quoted the autopsy, however, the way in which the hymen was described is in fact a normal hymen, the injuries described were indeed injuries, however they were acute injuries, which happened at the time of her murder. There is nothing, nothing to show chronic injury, I'm sorry there is just not. There is no one, NO ONE, who deals with sexually abused children that would take from this autopsy a conclusion of prior molestation.


Forensic pathologists and the the cops agree that JonBenet was sexually abused prior to the night of the murder. From the 1998 interviews:

TOM HANEY: "Ms. Ramsey, are you aware that there had been prior vaginal intrusion on JonBenet?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No, I am not. Prior to the night she was killed?"

TOM HANEY: "Correct."

PATSY RAMSEY: "No, I am not."

TOM HANEY: "Didn't know that?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "NO. I didn't."

TOM HANEY: "Does that surprise you?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Extremely."

TOM HANEY: "Does that shock you?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "It shocks me."

TOM HANEY: "Does it bother you?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes, it does."

TOM HANEY: "Who, how could she have been violated like that?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "I don't know. This is the absolute first time I ever heard that."

TOM HANEY: "Who could have done such a thing?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "I do not know. I don't have any idea."

TOM HANEY: "What is your best guess?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "I couldn't begin to guess. I am shocked. I don't have any idea. I am just -- I can't believe, I just can't believe."
 
  • #51
From Dr Wecht's book:-

... Meyer's next observation was just as critical. He reported that all that was left of the hymen was a rim of tissue between the two oclock and ten o'clock positions. That mean the hymen covering the vaginal opening and the rest of the hymen's rim were gone - missing in a six year old girl. JonBenet's hymen should have been intact and undamaged. Certain strenous activities could have caused some damage to the hymen. But at her age and given the rest of the evidence, Wecht knew that this finding strongly supported a diagnosis of some extended history of sexual penetration. That, when considered with the earlier reference by Meyer to "chronic inflammation" of the vaginal wall, convinced Wecht his conclusions about a pattern of repeated sexual abuse were inescapbale. What other story could be told by the fresh blood in the vagina, the injuries inside the vagina, the missing hymen, and the older inflammation?
 
  • #52
BlueCrab said:
From the 1998 interviews:

TOM HANEY: "Does that surprise you?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Extremely."

TOM HANEY: "Does that shock you?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "It shocks me."

i find this quote rather disturbing. would this upset you? yes. would it bother you? yes. but would it surprise and shock you? i'm not so sure here. not to sound overly cynical, but this was a 6-year old girl who was dressed up half the time to look like an older, more attractive young woman with all the makeup, etc (and i think i'm putting this rather nicely)...why would you be surprised and shocked that someone sexually lusted after your daughter and had acted on it? maybe i'm reaching, and i'm not in any way saying "she deserved it", but in my mind, i guess, it's not that surprising.
 
  • #53
Jayelles said:
From Dr Wecht's book:-

No one is disputing the acute damage."The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen."
There is an "area of abrasion" at 7O'clock.

Please read carefully..

The vestibule is another important anatomical area in prepubertal exam. This is the recessed mucosa that has as its landmarks the urethral meatus anteriorly and the vaginal orifice posteriorly. The vestibular sulcus is the base of the vaginal orifice and in the prepubertal child appears very erythematous. This erythema is due to the marked density of capillaries that surround this area and with minor trauma may lead to excessive bleeding.

Could a coroner, not familiar with the anatomy of a pre-pubertal child mistake this "ERYTHEMA" as vaginal inflammation? I would BET!
 
  • #54
sissi said:
Could a coroner, not familiar with the anatomy of a pre-pubertal child mistake this "ERYTHEMA" as vaginal inflammation? I would BET!

i would hope not! something about the statement "a coroner not familiar with the anatomy of..." sounds bizarre to me. isn't that a coroner's job? to be familiar with the anatomy of ALL human beings. do you really think that a coroner is trained and licensed only to analyze an adult body? did he just figure that a child would never show up dead on his watch?
 
  • #55
VOR, Sorry this disturbs you. I'm talking about experience in using appropriate terms when examining a child. I do not see an error in his report of findings, however , I see something that could be misunderstood by the rest of us.. the term inflammation as opposed to erythema.
Meyer never suggested Jonbenet had been a victim of chronic abuse, these suggestions have been made by those who are using his findings and concocting their own scenarios.
 
  • #56
sissi said:
Meyer never suggested Jonbenet had been a victim of chronic abuse, these suggestions have been made by those who are using his findings and concocting their own scenarios.
With respect Sissi, I believe the coroner's job is to record his/her findings only and not to speculate on what caused injuries etc.
 
  • #57
Voice of Reason said:
i find this quote rather disturbing. would this upset you? yes. would it bother you? yes. but would it surprise and shock you? i'm not so sure here. not to sound overly cynical, but this was a 6-year old girl who was dressed up half the time to look like an older, more attractive young woman with all the makeup, etc (and i think i'm putting this rather nicely)...why would you be surprised and shocked that someone sexually lusted after your daughter and had acted on it? maybe i'm reaching, and i'm not in any way saying "she deserved it", but in my mind, i guess, it's not that surprising.

"half the time"??
Your daughter goes to catholic school, some men have "uniform fetish", in your thinking, this would indicate that since she is half the time dressed in uniform,she could be a target, therefore don't be surprised if someone "sexually lusted" after her. We are discussing deviant behavior on the part of some maniacal killer, are we not? Her performances at the handful of pagaents do not correlate with either "half the time" or the pathology of this killer.
 
  • #58
Jayelles said:
With respect Sissi, I believe the coroner's job is to record his/her findings only and not to speculate on what caused injuries etc.
Absolutely correct, Jayelles!
 
  • #59
sissi said:
"half the time"??
Your daughter goes to catholic school, some men have "uniform fetish", in your thinking, this would indicate that since she is half the time dressed in uniform,she could be a target, therefore don't be surprised if someone "sexually lusted" after her. We are discussing deviant behavior on the part of some maniacal killer, are we not? Her performances at the handful of pagaents does not correlate with either "half the time" or the pathology of this killer.

half the time or 1% of the time, i just thought her reaction was odd. it seems to me that she was assuming that the investigators were implying that someone in the house was sexually abusing JBR, and she tailored her answers to rebut any suggestion of guilt in the ramsey household as opposed to answering the questions truthfully.

just my $.02
 
  • #60
I rarely read this forum, and have not read all the books nor have I followed every aspect of this case, but I don't think the Ramseys killed her, although I had a different opinion in the beginning.

I saw the Lou Smit documentary too, and thought he made some very compelling points about the window, the suitcase, etc. Also there are the marks that were probably caused by a stun gun - very compelling.

It just doesn't seem logical to me that the Ramseys were involved. When parents kill their children, usually

1. There is a history of child abuse and beatings, or outright neglect, or

2. There is at least an attempt to kill all the children in the family, i.e. Andrea Yates, Susan Smith, Diane Downs, or men eliminating all the children to punish the estranged wife, etc.

In this case there was no history of child abuse or neglect. The parents were well-educated and productive members of society. The children were well-nourished and pampered.

Burke was not harmed, so there was no attempt to get rid of all the children.

The garrot thing really bothers me. I just can't visualize a parent using either a garrot or a stun gun on their own child. Beating her senseless in a fit of anger, yes, but torturing her with foreign objects - no way. Her injuries point to a really depraved person, and not a conspiracy between husband, wife, and other child.

My amature gut feeling is that it was someone who was familiar with the family and the house, and perhaps someone who knew JBR. I also think it was a woman who was trying to make it look like the perp was a man. I lean toward a theory of another pagent mom who was jealous of JBR's and/or Patsy and/or who hated Patsy, and wanted to either eliminate her own daughter's competition, or get even with Patsy on some other level.

The ransome note bothers me, because I really think it was written by a woman. Men do not go into that much detail. I do not believe it was Patsy that wrote the note.
 

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