Lies point us to the truth #2

[icedtea4me]

<snip>Impulsive rage or chronic SA?</snip>

Why not impulsive rage due to witnessing SA?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

You have offered a thoughtful consideration of the possible logistics of the case. Allow me to add, for thoroughness, that there could have been manual strangulation, which the LA was meant to disguise. More importantly, there is the crucial RN. This could have been written at any time. While it is logical to believe that it was composed after JB's death, that is only an assumption.

If JB didn't go to bed, she'd be still wearing the GAP top, with no need to change her out of it. The extra hair tie indicates that she was awake after coming back from the Whites'. I suppose that this is not part of the concept of redressing as outlined; although, it is significant. Patsy's fibers in the ligature suggest that she didn't go to bed either, or else her nightclothes would be imbedded there instead. Should Burke have been in bed if his sister and mother weren't? Because of the fibers and the RN, Patsy solely could have been responsible for all the logistics of the CS. But that seems unlikely.

In your speculative chain of events, you do not have HB after LA. IMO this is a possibility.

However, whatever the order of events, the main concern is the motive for the murder. All else flows from this. Impulsive rage or chronic SA? The missing size 6 Wednesday Bloomis seem to lean in favor of SA. I do not see readily how this fact is connected to a moment of rage. BR or JR could have made the mistake with the size 12s. BR could have thought that he was being clever redressing her in the long johns. JR might not have been aware to which child these belonged. What is so odd is that she was left in them. Their presence defeats the FF fantasy of the RN. This points out the disconnect between the RN and WC scene. Round and round and...

Whoever it was who committed the murder, that person recovered from the violence quickly enough before BPD arrived. This is characteristic of the psychopath's ability to compartmentalize. Only Patsy showed afterwards appropriate emotions of grief and rage. "Go back to the drawing board." Ironically, that's where we all still find ourselves!

proust20,
Sure, I left manual strangulation out as the coroner only cited Ligature Asphyxiation, although manual strangulation of sorts cannot be ruled out.

In your speculative chain of events, you do not have HB after LA. IMO this is a possibility.

Only if you do not consider the HB to be failed staging. Why bother with a HB if JonBenet is dead?

BR could have thought that he was being clever redressing her in the long johns. JR might not have been aware to which child these belonged. What is so odd is that she was left in them. Their presence defeats the FF fantasy of the RN. This points out the disconnect between the RN and WC scene. Round and round and...

This tells us the parents were late to the crime-scene, e.g. upstairs, other than wiping JonBenet down and redressing her in the Gap Top, the main adjustment was moving JonBenet down to the basement and agreeing on a RN strategy.

Whoever it was who committed the murder, that person recovered from the violence quickly enough before BPD arrived.

Yes, BR and JR appeared composed as they performed their alloted staged roles.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy's clue with dressing JonBenet in longjohns as opposed to a pair of pajama bottoms was that John was long that night (i.e. She caught him with an erection). It's just like the heart on, or hard-on, her [JonBenet's] hand.

icedtea4me,

Patsy's clue with dressing JonBenet in longjohns as opposed to a pair of pajama bottoms was that John was long that night ...

Only you appear to have understood Patsy's intent here.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,

Only you appear to have understood Patsy's intent here.

True.

 

[proust20]

UKGuy,

A possible reason for the head blow coming after JB was already dead is to make the murder seem like the rash act of a frenzied intruder. This was the particular scenario concocted in the RN and to which JR still clings. If SA were the motive for the murder (and not impulsive anger), it'd be important to implicate a maniacal stranger for all the violence done to JB. The panicked family may have naively disregarded what the autopsy would show. In fact, the parents never acknowledged the chronic situation with their daughter. Admittedly, this theory rather depends on JB being done in as part of an abusive incident. If, for the sake of argument, the idea that she were attacked first someplace in the house other than the basement were put aside, then events fall in place easier. Part of the CS is the urine stain outside of the WC. This is the only available evidence which could locate what occurred. As said before, it seems probable that JB was both asphyxiated and struck in a prone position which suggests continuity. The time gap becomes problematic here, but any other explanation faces this same difficulty. Perhaps the time was spent composing the RN, which reasonably could have taken 40 min? However, the chronic SA plus the final assault also seems a continuous activity.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

A possible reason for the head blow coming after JB was already dead is to make the murder seem like the rash act of a frenzied intruder. This was the particular scenario concocted in the RN and to which JR still clings. If SA were the motive for the murder (and not impulsive anger), it'd be important to implicate a maniacal stranger for all the violence done to JB. The panicked family may have naively disregarded what the autopsy would show. In fact, the parents never acknowledged the chronic situation with their daughter. Admittedly, this theory rather depends on JB being done in as part of an abusive incident. If, for the sake of argument, the idea that she were attacked first someplace in the house other than the basement were put aside, then events fall in place easier. Part of the CS is the urine stain outside of the WC. This is the only available evidence which could locate what occurred. As said before, it seems probable that JB was both asphyxiated and struck in a prone position which suggests continuity. The time gap becomes problematic here, but any other explanation faces this same difficulty. Perhaps the time was spent composing the RN, which reasonably could have taken 40 min? However, the chronic SA plus the final assault also seems a continuous activity.

proust20,

A possible reason for the head blow coming after JB was already dead is to make the murder seem like the rash act of a frenzied intruder. This was the particular scenario concocted in the RN and to which JR still clings.

BBM: The use of the ligature and paintbrush handle along with the SA already suggest this.

Yet in a panicked staging, anything is possible, so could be JonBenet was ritually whacked on the head after the ligature asphyxiation. Yet from memory there was subdural bleeding, despite her already being already dead?

the idea that she were attacked first someplace in the house other than the basement were put aside, then events fall in place easier. Part of the CS is the urine stain outside of the WC. This is the only available evidence which could locate what occurred.

BBM: we have the broken paintbrush and part placement back into the paint-tote linking JonBenet to the basement along with the shards from the broken paintbrush handle lying on the floor outside the wine-cellar.

The RN note was written after JonBenet was moved down to the basement. This movement is the rationale behind the RN, nothing else!

A head injury delivered in anger does not explain why JonBenet would be denied medical assistance?

I usually split events into those that took place upstairs and those downstairs, i.e. basement.

So this includes JonBenet's bedroom, the breakfast bar, etc. All areas where we can show JonBenet had been physically present.

Any unexplained time-gap might be explained by BR and/or the parents waiting to see if JonBenet will wake up?

The rest is revision of any prior staging and the minimal additions of the parents.

.

 

[anonymiss]

The Bob Saget case reminded me of the JBR case. LE thinks Saget fell against the bed headboard in his hotel room, received a brain injury and died. JBR could have injured herself and died, but the family thinking one of them might get the blame (especially with BR's history of harming JBR accidentally), later stages her death as a kidnapping/murder with the strangulation. If LE found out someone was in Saget's hotel room they might be wrongly blamed for his death.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

The Bob Saget case reminded me of the JBR case. LE thinks Saget fell against the bed headboard in his hotel room, received a brain injury and died. JBR could have injured herself and died, but the family thinking one of them might get the blame (especially with BR's history of harming JBR accidentally), later stages her death as a kidnapping/murder with the strangulation. If LE found out someone was in Saget's hotel room they might be wrongly blamed for his death.

anonymiss,

Yes, I thought the same thing. I learned about the temporal contusions found on both of them from this. Bob was found under the covers. How did he hit his head (that hard) on anything? He had a lot of brain movement and bleed. I don’t buy any of what they are selling in reference to BS. What the heck do they think he was doing? Jumping on the bed, hit his head and then jumped under the covers? Had he been able to tuck himself into bed, surely he would have picked up the phone.

I also have a hard time understanding how a parent can strike their child that hard intentionally? IMO, the ligature strangulation was enough to justify the RN. There was no need to go further. As for the head whack, IMO it was BR. Both parents were found to have helped cover up this murder knowingly; as per the true bills. I do know this … all 3 family members still alive the next morning are guilty. Yet, they walk free. Sadly, tragically, there has been no justice served for JB.

If LE found out someone was in Saget's hotel room they might be wrongly blamed for his death.

I especially like this part. They said they have a video camera by the door and no one else came or went in Bob’s room. Should this be the case, then we can deduce that perhaps somebody with enough money to cover it up; did just that.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>Both parents were found to have helped cover up this murder knowingly; as per the true bills. </snip>

1. There's no true bill which states "John Bennett Ramsey and Patricia Ann Ramsey...".

2. There's still the matter of the charges the prosecution had for Counts I, II, and III, which the grand jury may have been divided on.

3. The Count VII on assisting would be dropped by the prosecution for either John and/or Patsy had the grand jury come to decision regarding Count I (Murder in the First Degree).

 

[UKGuy]

1. There's no true bill which states "John Bennett Ramsey and Patricia Ann Ramsey...".

2. There's still the matter of the charges the prosecution had for Counts I, II, and III, which the grand jury may have been divided on.

3. The Count VII on assisting would be dropped by the prosecution for either John and/or Patsy had the grand jury come to decision regarding Count I (Murder in the First Degree).

icedtea4me,
All three Ramsey's deposited forensic evidence in the wine-cellar.

Since the wine-cellar is an isolated homicide crime-scene this can only be explained by cross-transfer or/and direct contact.

JR and PR can be linked to the wine-cellar via dna or fibers.

BR to a lesser extent, yet BR did engage in postmortem staging by faking being asleep after the 911 call.

So the True Bills are not required to demonstrate that the surviving Ramsey's assisted in staging JonBenet's crime-sceen.

The True Bills show that any RDI is on the right track, as the GJ saw and heard evidence not available to us.

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

1. There's no true bill which states "John Bennett Ramsey and Patricia Ann Ramsey...".

2. There's still the matter of the charges the prosecution had for Counts I, II, and III, which the grand jury may have been divided on.

3. The Count VII on assisting would be dropped by the prosecution for either John and/or Patsy had the grand jury come to decision regarding Count I (Murder in the First Degree).

icedtea4me,

I read COUNT VII as they knowingly assisted in the coverup of her murder.

Both parents were found to have helped cover up this murder knowingly; as per the true bills.

But, I get what you are saying for argumentation.

 

[anonymiss]

anonymiss,

Yes, I thought the same thing. I learned about the temporal contusions found on both of them from this. Bob was found under the covers. How did he hit his head (that hard) on anything? He had a lot of brain movement and bleed. I don’t buy any of what they are selling in reference to BS. What the heck do they think he was doing? Jumping on the bed, hit his head and then jumped under the covers? Had he been able to tuck himself into bed, surely he would have picked up the phone.

I also have a hard time understanding how a parent can strike their child that hard intentionally? IMO, the ligature strangulation was enough to justify the RN. There was no need to go further. As for the head whack, IMO it was BR. Both parents were found to have helped cover up this murder knowingly; as per the true bills. I do know this … all 3 family members still alive the next morning are guilty. Yet, they walk free. Sadly, tragically, there has been no justice served for JB.



I especially like this part. They said they have a video camera by the door and no one else came or went in Bob’s room. Should this be the case, then we can deduce that perhaps somebody with enough money to cover it up; did just that.

So many theories regarding Saget's death, the cops closed the case, the family suing to stop release of photos, we'll probably never learn the truth.
I don't think BDI for several reasons. On the 911 tape he is heard saying, "what did you find" to his parents, if he just bashed JBR in the head, why would he say that, he would know they found JBR injured or dead even though they didn't admit finding her so early on that night, they tell 911 they found the RN, not JBR.
If BDI, why did his parents immediately sent him to the Whites, weren't they worried he would tell someone he did it?
The police officer who spoke to BR (I don't remember if the cop took BR to the Whites) was convinced BR didn't know anything.
Why would his parents send him back to school so soon, weren't they afraid he would tell someone at school he did it?
Why does BR go on Dr. Phil and put himself close to the crime scene by saying he was downstairs doing something the night JBR was killed if he's guilty?
Why does BR offer to take a lie detector test if he's guilty?
Why does BR say he forgot to lock the door that night and felt guilty? Is he lying? Is he advancing the intruder theory to cover up for someone else?

 

[danablue1]

So many theories regarding Saget's death, the cops closed the case, the family suing to stop release of photos, we'll probably never learn the truth.
I don't think BDI for several reasons. On the 911 tape he is heard saying, "what did you find" to his parents, if he just bashed JBR in the head, why would he say that, he would know they found JBR injured or dead even though they didn't admit finding her so early on that night, they tell 911 they found the RN, not JBR.
If BDI, why did his parents immediately sent him to the Whites, weren't they worried he would tell someone he did it?
The police officer who spoke to BR (I don't remember if the cop took BR to the Whites) was convinced BR didn't know anything.
Why would his parents send him back to school so soon, weren't they afraid he would tell someone at school he did it?
Why does BR go on Dr. Phil and put himself close to the crime scene by saying he was downstairs doing something the night JBR was killed if he's guilty?
Why does BR offer to take a lie detector test if he's guilty?
Why does BR say he forgot to lock the door that night and felt guilty? Is he lying? Is he advancing the intruder theory to cover up for someone else?

I thought JR checked all the locks before he went to bed and again when JB "went missing?"

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I don't think BDI for several reasons. On the 911 tape he is heard saying, "what did you find" to his parents, if he just bashed JBR in the head, why would he say that, he would know they found JBR injured or dead even though they didn't admit finding her so early on that night, they tell 911 they found the RN, not JBR.

anonymiss,

BR was almost 10 years old. He may not have realized JB was dead. That would explain the train track punctures found on her postmortem. This could also explain his question as to what did you find? Since PR stated they found the RN, what do you suppose BR meant by his question?

If BDI, why did his parents immediately sent him to the Whites, weren't they worried he would tell someone he did it?

If BDI, why did he pretend to be asleep? He was doing exactly as he was told. It makes sense if BDI that they needed to get him away from the crime scene asap. Remember JR was overheard approx. 45 min. after finding JB ordering a flight to cross state lines.

The police officer who spoke to BR (I don't remember if the cop took BR to the Whites) was convinced BR didn't know anything.

FW took BR to his home. If BR didn’t know anything how did he know JB was strangled 2 days after the murder in telling to his best bud DS? Further, on Jan. 8, 1997 BR was taken to an interview with a child psychologist. How did BR know that someone took out a knife and hit JB on the head when the autopsy wasn’t released for another 6 months?

Why would his parents send him back to school so soon, weren't they afraid he would tell someone at school he did it?

Because they knew there was no killer on the loose. There was no need to hold their remaining child close. They proved that the morning of the 26th.

Why does BR go on Dr. Phil and put himself close to the crime scene by saying he was downstairs doing something the night JBR was killed if he's guilty?

BR went on Dr. Phil because JR said so. BR did go back downstairs to knock out a toy. It’s hard for a child to not tell the truth. Maybe this is why he said that.

Why does BR offer to take a lie detector test if he's guilty?

Perhaps his memory has been erased.

Why does BR say he forgot to lock the door that night and felt guilty? Is he lying? Is he advancing the intruder theory to cover up for someone else?

Those words never came out until Dr. Phil. I am sure it is another JR spin.

 

[anonymiss]

BR went on Dr. Phil because JR said so. BR did go back downstairs to knock out a toy. It’s hard for a child to not tell the truth. Maybe this is why he said that.

That's my point regarding the parents letting BR go to the Whites, go back to school so early, etc. If he was guilty why wouldn't they keep him close to monitor and control what he says?

FW took BR to his home. If BR didn’t know anything how did he know JB was strangled 2 days after the murder in telling to his best bud DS? Further, on Jan. 8, 1997 BR was taken to an interview with a child psychologist. How did BR know that someone took out a knife and hit JB on the head when the autopsy wasn’t released for another 6 months?

Did BR see the body when JR brought JBR upstairs? BR could have concluded JBR was strangled seeing the marks on her neck or even heard the adults talking about the incident to know what her injuries were and how they could have been caused. (Everything I've read about the case doesn't state whether BR saw JBR's body after JR brought her upstairs, but I haven't read all the books.)

BR was almost 10 years old. He may not have realized JB was dead. That would explain the train track punctures found on her postmortem. This could also explain his question as to what did you find? Since PR stated they found the RN, what do you suppose BR meant by his question?

If BR asked what did you find before PR stated they found the RN to 911, I would guess BR was asking his parents if they found JBR dead. If BR asked after PR mentioned the RN, maybe he was asking if there was evidence of an intruder in the house? On Dr. Phil, BR denies being up during the call.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

That's my point regarding the parents letting BR go to the Whites, go back to school so early, etc. If he was guilty why wouldn't they keep him close to monitor and control what he says?

Anonymiss,
Just because they didn’t keep him close doesn’t mean he wasn’t guilty.

Did BR see the body when JR brought JBR upstairs? BR could have concluded JBR was strangled seeing the marks on her neck or even heard the adults talking about the incident to know what her injuries were and how they could have been caused. (Everything I've read about the case doesn't state whether BR saw JBR's body after JR brought her upstairs, but I haven't read all the books.)

BR was taken to the Whites around 7 a.m. on the 26th. JR carried JB upstairs around 1 p.m.

Suggested reads are Inside the Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas and Foreign Faction: who really killed Jonbenet by James Kolar.

If BR asked what did you find before PR stated they found the RN to 911, I would guess BR was asking his parents if they found JBR dead. If BR asked after PR mentioned the RN, maybe he was asking if there was evidence of an intruder in the house? On Dr. Phil, BR denies being up during the call.

BR was heard on the 911 call after PR supposedly hung up the phone in reference to “What did you find”. Like I said about BR denial: perhaps his mind has been erased.

Perhaps your local library has some books you can read on the case.

 

[UKGuy]

BR was heard on the 911 call after PR supposedly hung up the phone in reference to “What did you find”. Like I said about BR denial: perhaps his mind has been erased.

I reckon BR asked “What did you find” because he knew there was something to find? Was he playing the innocent party here before his parents?

The best explanation is that his parents took over BR's amateurish staging and restaged JonBenet down in the basement well away from the primary crime-scene, e.g. some room upstairs?

The unknown here is did BR think JonBenet was asleep/still alive, is this what prompted his question?

BR never asked anyone else any questions that morning he just left with his nintendo for FW's house.

He never bothered asking any investigating officers anything, when an officer entered his bedroom, BR is alleged to have told the officer that JonBenet was likely fine and hiding out somewhere downstairs?

I'd love to see a PDI or JDI theory that explains most of the evidence, currently only a BDI does that, as it impels the parents to restage BR's crime-scene. With Patsy not bothering much about leaving forensic evidence as she wants to save BR, particularly after losing JonBenet.

One unknown is whether BR staged JonBenet down in the basement or was this the parents call?
.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I reckon BR asked “What did you find” because he knew there was something to find? Was he playing the innocent party here before his parents?

The best explanation is that his parents took over BR's amateurish staging and restaged JonBenet down in the basement well away from the primary crime-scene, e.g. some room upstairs?

The unknown here is did BR think JonBenet was asleep/still alive, is this what prompted his question?

BR never asked anyone else any questions that morning he just left with his nintendo for FW's house.

He never bothered asking any investigating officers anything, when an officer entered his bedroom, BR is alleged to have told the officer that JonBenet was likely fine and hiding out somewhere downstairs?

I'd love to see a PDI or JDI theory that explains most of the evidence, currently only a BDI does that, as it impels the parents to restage BR's crime-scene. With Patsy not bothering much about leaving forensic evidence as she wants to save BR, particularly after losing JonBenet.

One unknown is whether BR staged JonBenet down in the basement or was this the parents call?
.

UKGuy,
We could probably wrap it all up in those dark fuzzy blue fibers found on JB clothing, duct tape and crime scene.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>The True Bills show that any RDI is on the right track, as the GJ saw and heard evidence not available to us.

Wrong. It is not any RDI. It is only John and/or Patsy. Burke, due to his age, cannot be apprehended, prosecuted, convicted, and punished.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/Media/Opinion_Docs/JRamsey Grand Jury.pdf

 

[danablue1]

Wrong. It is not any RDI. It is only John and/or Patsy. Burke, due to his age, cannot be apprehended, prosecuted, convicted, and punished.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/Media/Opinion_Docs/JRamsey Grand Jury.pdf

In order words PR and/ or JR killed her. We just don't know who did what.