LIfe as a fence sitter

[IrishMist]

Lo and behold, he just happened to open the window that morning. Hmmmmmmmmm!

And the alarm was always on, except this night and this so called intruder knew that this night of all nights the alarm wasn't going to be set, cause he read the Ramsey's minds and said to himself "Now's your chance to have your way with JBR"? Yeah, I buy this all the way around.

They were in the habit of NOT using the alarm. It had gone off too many times accidently, and they just quit activating it. They felt safe in their home and neighborhood.

ETA: Though there is no way an intruder would know this information.

 

[Jayelles]

A fence-sitter's life is not a happy one ...

RDI
Refusal to speak with police

Handwriting samples - look very like Patsy's but I've never seen anyone else's to compare

Fibre evidence - fibes consistent with Patsy's jacket entwined in the garotte

Large Bloomies - they just don't make sense

Evidence that John Ramsey tells lies to cover his backside

Lawyers quickly hired for everyone in the family

The DNA might not be the killer's

Pineapple cannot be easily explained if the Ramseys are telling the truth

When asked if he'd take a polygraph, JR said "I'd be insulted"


IDI

When asked if she'd take a polygraph, PR said "I'll take ten of them"

I cannot believe the Ramseys would harm their beloved daughter

The DNA might be the killer's

No duct tape and cord found afterwards

 

[olive]

I'll admit I think the whole is weird, period. Too many speculations, not enough evidence, and disputed evidence. The chances of this case being solved are nil.

One thing that has always bothered me is how quick people are to judge, either way. The Ramsey's have been persecuted for everything from the "look in their eye" to how they cry, to their location of living, for having their daughter in pageants, etc. This, for me, is too much. People react differently based on a variety of environmental and heredity factors. It is not safe to assume anything based on "norms". Humans are complex creatures. I don't think it is very fair to judge every nonverbal movement. I know I have a hard time refraining from laughing at funerals. People think this is strange, that I must find them funny. I don't find them funny at all. I have anxiety problems, and it manifests itself differently given different situations. Laughing at funerals is a release of nervous energy for me.

Now that I've explained that, there is but one detail about the Ramsey's actions that I have a hard time being open minded about. And it is one that seems to be overlooked by many people. Consider this:

You wake up, find a ransom note saying your daughter is kidnapped, and it very clearly states that you are under survellience and she will be killed if you call anyone. What would you do?? Would you immediately call 911, the police- in marked police cars with sirens blazing, your pastor, your doctor, your closest friends to all come immediately to the house, through your front door?

I would hope not.

So maybe you are one of these conventional people who listen to what their told, and you've been told and seen on movies to call the police anytime something like would happen. ok, fine. But wouldn't you tell them the note states you are not to call anyone or she'll be murdered? Wouldn't you ask maybe that they come in an unmarked police car to study the area, but not to approach the house? Wouldn't you maybe try something sneaky, rather than blantantly announce to the whole neighborhood what is going on?

This is something I just can't rationalize.

 

[Jolynna]

"You wake up, find a ransom note saying your daughter is kidnapped, and it very clearly states that you are under survellience and she will be killed if you call anyone.


What would you do??


Would you immediately call 911, the police- in marked police cars with sirens blazing, your pastor, your doctor, your closest friends to all come immediately to the house, THROUGH YOUR FRONT DOOR?



I would hope not.



So maybe you are one of these conventional people who listen to what their told, and you've been told and seen on movies to call the police anytime something like would happen. ok, fine. But wouldn't you tell them the note states you are not to call anyone or she'll be murdered? Wouldn't you ask maybe that they come in an unmarked police car to study the area, but not to approach the house?

Wouldn't you maybe try something sneaky, rather than blantantly announce to the whole neighborhood what is going on?


This is something I just can't rationalize."


Me either.

That was an EXCELLENT post, Olive.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Mjak.

Hey Mjak can I take a stab?


Why I think the Ramseys did it:
1. How could an inturder have been so active in that house and kill a child and no one heard a thing?

Ned: Actually I never thought that was a problem considering the size of the home. As you may have remembered in the VanDam case, Westerfield was able to walk in go up the stairs and snatch JB from her bed and her room was only down the hall from where Damon was sleeping with his dog. So given the circumstances I DO think an intruder COULD have committed this crime, there just is no compelling evidence one did considering all the evidence that points to the parents.

2. The Ransom note

Ned: Correct, it shouts Patsy

3. Jonbenets poses in the pagents. I find these very disturbing and raises huge conerns about the parents of this child.

Ned: Well it certainly paints a clearly picture of the sort of mother Patsy was and gives us a look inside. I have watched these pageant shows on these little girls and I think ALL the mothers are clearly living through their daughters.

4. Lack of intruder evidence. All intruder evidence is infurred and not conclusive.

Ned: Completely agree

5. The Ramseys behavior the morning jonbenet was found missing

Ned; Very compelling and cannot be dismissed IMO

6. John Ramsey wanting to leave for atlanta so quickly after the discovery of
jonbenet's body.

Ned: HUGE

7. The Ramsey's behavior following the murder

Ned: HUGE

8. the pineapple

Ned: Second most important piece of evidence in this case, comes right after the ransom note.

9. pedafiles don't leave ransom notes and kidnappers don't leave there victim dead in there home.

Ned: Exactly


10. the missing friends of the Ramseys

Ned: Missing friends? Oh you mean the fact that the Whites no longer speak to them.

Why I think an Intruder did it

1. This crime is so horrific I can not believe a parent could do it.
Much less two parents involved in covering it up

Ned: That’s what people said about Susan Smith and Andrea Yates.

2. The open window

Ned: John opened it

3. The sheer brutality of the crime

Ned: A blunt force crack to the skull. Ligature marks. Horrible I know, but I can think of worse crimes.

 

[BBB167893]

"That means that LE thinks a DNA positive would have been significant, right?"

Apparently not, if the DA's comment at the depresser was heard right!

"When you say LE you really mean the DA's office-biased towards an IDI, not the cops."

Damn straight.

"1. This crime is so horrific I can not believe a parent could do it.
Much less two parents involved in covering it up

Ned: That's what people said about Susan Smith and Andrea Yates."

Well put.

 

[Jolynna]

RDI:

From Linda Wilcox, the Ramsey's former housekeeper...


a stranger did not kill JonBenet. The lay of the house doesn't...it would be very difficult. Possibly, there are people who are professional. But then they would have done a professional job. Lots of little things contribute to my belief. Someone who didn't know that house, really well, couldn't have done what they done (sic) without being noticed. It's not possible. It is physically impossible. You had to know little things. Like for example, you walk in the room and hit the switch, the light doesn't come on. See, cause when the room was redone, they put in a ceiling fan, one of the metal ones, without a light kit on it. The only light in her room was the lamp between the two beds. You have to physically walk over and turn it on. It isn't run by the switch. The switch was meant to run the overhead ceiling light which was removed to install the ceiling fan.

 

[olive]

Another detail regarding the ransom the note I found strange:

Never in their account of the morning happenings, did Patsy or John mention looking out the window or walking outside. If you thought there was a chance of kidnappers watching your house, monitoring your actions, wouldn't you want to at the very least look out windows to see if you see any unknown cars, etc.? Why wouldn't this be done before calling police? To see if you see them monitoring you? How could one not think to do this, if they had their daughter's safety in mind? They thought about safety enough to install an alarm system, but are careless enough not to even check for the people supposedly sitting outside the house? Doesn't make sense.

 

[Jolynna]

"Never in their account of the morning happenings, did Patsy or John mention looking out the window or walking outside. If you thought there was a chance of kidnappers watching your house, monitoring your actions, wouldn't you want to at the very least look out windows to see if you see any unknown cars, etc.? Why wouldn't this be done before calling police? To see if you see them monitoring you? How could one not think to do this, if they had their daughter's safety in mind? They thought about safety enough to install an alarm system, but are careless enough not to even check for the people supposedly sitting outside the house? Doesn't make sense."


That is a really good point.

I would think before you called and asked the police, even, you would check to see if anyone might be watching.

But, they not only called the police, they called up their friends. Then they let everybody in through the front door.

It doesn't make sense.

 

[panthera]

Scott Peterson also had no known history of killing, there's always a first time, doesn't prove anything.:snooty:

And as for a mother killing her children, think of Susan Smith and Andrea Yates. This could have been an accident, embellished to make it look like an intruder/stranger did it or a fit of temporary uncontrolled rage. Or, it could still have been a stranger, but whom? A stranger only killing once? No more crimes of this type in ten years?

 

[panthera]

Another detail regarding the ransom the note I found strange:

Never in their account of the morning happenings, did Patsy or John mention looking out the window or walking outside. If you thought there was a chance of kidnappers watching your house, monitoring your actions, wouldn't you want to at the very least look out windows to see if you see any unknown cars, etc.? Why wouldn't this be done before calling police? To see if you see them monitoring you? How could one not think to do this, if they had their daughter's safety in mind? They thought about safety enough to install an alarm system, but are careless enough not to even check for the people supposedly sitting outside the house? Doesn't make sense.

Also, included in the note is the following: "Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, FBI, etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies...". So, the first thing they do is call the police and friends, and have the house full of people. If in fact, this had been a legitimate kidnapping ransom note, the Ramseys could've executed their own daughter by "disobedience" to the contents of the note. Therefore, I think Patsy, at least, knew it wasn't legitimate when she called 911.

 

[Bronte Nut]

"You wake up, find a ransom note saying your daughter is kidnapped, and it very clearly states that you are under survellience and she will be killed if you call anyone.


What would you do??


Would you immediately call 911, the police- in marked police cars with sirens blazing, your pastor, your doctor, your closest friends to all come immediately to the house, THROUGH YOUR FRONT DOOR?



I would hope not.



So maybe you are one of these conventional people who listen to what their told, and you've been told and seen on movies to call the police anytime something like would happen. ok, fine. But wouldn't you tell them the note states you are not to call anyone or she'll be murdered? Wouldn't you ask maybe that they come in an unmarked police car to study the area, but not to approach the house?

Wouldn't you maybe try something sneaky, rather than blantantly announce to the whole neighborhood what is going on?


This is something I just can't rationalize."


Me either.

That was an EXCELLENT post, Olive.

It IS an excellent post Olive, and it hits on one of the many good reasons the Ramseys have been suspects for 10 years, despite the swaggering of their oafish lawyer.

No full spectrum DNA means they can NEVER use a DNA match alone to jail any suspect. The best they can do is use the limited sample to exclude SOME suspects, like Karr.

There was no clear evidence of an intruder. The Ramseys' stories and their overall behavior stank. There was no compromising alien/non-Ramsey DNA, despite the obviously protracted events and the certain extensive physical manipulation of the child.

Quite what more anybody needs to know, is beyond me.

 

[mjak]

Wow, lots of good responses!!! Right now the only thing keeping me on the fence and not on the gound with the RDI folks is one fench post , stuck into the collar of my shirt. It won't hold me for long, so if any IDI folks out there want to get me back on the fence please speak up!!! I absolulty agree, that calling the police and inviting so many people over to the house after the kidnapper said Jonbenet would be beheaded if anything like that was done is very very suspicous. Like, Ned I too think John Ramsey wanting to leave so quickly after jonbenets body was found is a huge red flag. I have never been able to make sense of that. IDI"s I am listening....

mjak

 

[Nehemiah]

I am a fence sitter. I've been sitting here for 7 years. I have no theory, don't know what I would do if my child were murdered, or how I would act if I found him/her.

 

[simplesimon]

Can someone repost a link that I read here yesterday about a radio interview with Jeff Merrick,the guy the R,s threw under the bus? Fence sitters you must listen to this.they talk about how many hundreds of people the police investigated and the best is how he explains why he thinks the part in the ransom note about the two gentlemen that are watching JR's daughter who do not like him very much could be a reference to him !!
After hearing that story and looking at the comparison writing of Patsy to the ransom note especially the way the q's look like 8 and the backward apostrohe's (I have never seen anyone write like that)
I am wondering why they could not be indicted.

 

[newtv]

Scott Peterson also had no known history of killing, there's always a first time, doesn't prove anything.:snooty:

but-he had a very corrupt double life going on-and that is what is wrong here-the ramseys did not end up also having a corrupt double life..they had nothing-and have nothing..I really think u know that differnce-and we can look at almost everyone accused or convicted of such a crime and see a double life emerge..
go thru the list and u will see it every time

 

[Jolynna]

There are experts who believe that JonBenet had been sexually abused.

IF this HAD been going on, wouldn't that be living a double life?

 

[LinasK]

the ramseys did not end up also having a corrupt double life..they had nothing-and have nothing..

Not one that's fully been exposed. But I really do believe there's a deep history of sexual abuse in this family that may span more than one generation. Money and social status can cover up a lot. There is a lot that people will overlook. JB's pediatrician seemed more than willing to turn a blind eye to her sexual abuse. Look at BTK- he was a Church leader and a Boyscout Leader- upstanding by all appearances in his community.

 

[Bronte Nut]

There are experts who believe that JonBenet had been sexually abused.

IF this HAD been going on, wouldn't that be living a double life?

I'd certainly say so...

People with varying levels of schizophrenia and emotional shutdown can do seemingly callous things that shock others by their contrasting behavioral reversion.

To me, everything about the way the Ramseys conducted themselves smacks of this kind of reptilian detachment... and they weren't even lawyers...

Without disrespecting anyone, I honestly wonder if some of the IDI people don't want the 'mystery' to end, and that they are refusing to look at the only intelligent conclusion that can possibly be drawn from all of the available case information - that the most likely explanation is that JonBenet Ramsey died at the hands of another Ramsey, whether by accident or design, and that it was physically impossible for any non-Ramsey to have stealthily carried out a protracted act of murder without there being some firm evidence of such an act.

To carry out a stealthy murder of that nature, over such a ludicrous length of time would take almost inhuman skill and planning. Anyone who could pull off such a feat would not be dumb enough to leave an incoherent HAND WRITTEN ransom note, for Pete's sake. How could ANYONE believe that? So, was there a dumb accomplice, who wrote the idiot-level note? That would make it TWICE as hard to avoid leaving non-Ramsey DNA at the scene. Brilliant.

Or maybe Patsy was so insane that she wrote the note even though none of the Ramseys killed JBR... Aaaaah... case closed...

To suggest that a superhumanly efficient killer would leave such a ridiculous hand written note is just embarrassing. That one point alone makes an absolute nonsense of the IDI case. There is no IDI case. Many of the IDI group just keep going around in circles ignoring the demonstrable impossibility of the IDI theory.

They just don't want to accept the RDI theory because nobody has the Ramseys on film killing JBR and a signed and witnessed confession.

No, there is no absolute proof they did it - obviously - if there was, they would be in jail. Even the DA could pull that off. Well... maybe not in Boulder...

The reason so many RDI people won't let up, is actually to honor JonBenet, and to prevent lawyers and money power being able to comfortably pull off a callous whitewash. IMO!!!

 

[Shelayne]

You wake up, find a ransom note saying your daughter is kidnapped, and it very clearly states that you are under survellience and she will be killed if you call anyone. What would you do?? Would you immediately call 911, the police- in marked police cars with sirens blazing, your pastor, your doctor, your closest friends to all come immediately to the house, through your front door?

Hi olive,

Nice to "meet" you.

I just want to answer the question you posted above. I have NO IDEA what I would do if I woke up, my child was missing and there was a note that says "We have your daughter." Quite honestly, I doubt she got much further in that note before the panic welled up in her. And I would assume that when I call the police and tell them my daughter is missing, and there is a ransom note, that THEY will be the professionals and not come with their sirens blaring. Don't ransom notes generally say "Don't call the cops"? Of course you call the cops. If it's a kidnapping, the FBI comes as a package. They know how to handle a kidnapping. They know the drill. From the transcripts, it seemed that she had NOT read the entire note, and that John was actually reading it while she was on the phone with 911.

And I probably WOULD call my best friend next because I would really need her. I wouldn't know what to do. I would be a freaking basket case. I would need her to help me get my bearings and help me with my other child. I wouldn't doubt that she would call the other neighbors. Maybe they are thinking that they can help.

I guess the last thing that I am processing is that my home is a crime scene. I just want my baby back. I know that policemen are supposed to help you that way. I am somewhat comforted that they are coming. They will find her. They will bring her home.

Do I know that is what Patsy was thinking? Of course not, but I don't know that WASN'T what was going through her mind. I wasn't there to "observe" the Ramseys, but I can guess that it was a chaotic and hysterical atmosphere. That Patsy was trying NOT to fall apart, probably praying fervently under her breath, or possibly staring into space, slightly in shock, and John was trying to be the rock. People are hurling questions at her, and she just cannot even process what is going on. Her little girl is gone and some nutjob has her.

Yep, pretty certain that I would be slowly, but surely, falling to pieces. And when they found her? I cannot even go there because it hurts too much to even think about. Horse tranquilizers is what I am thinking.

Just my :twocents:.