LIfe as a fence sitter

[DeeDee249]

Not only do the prices of the tape and cord match the items on the receipt, but the department key also showed the items came from the same department in the store as the tape and cord.

 

[icedtea4me]

His decision to leave the house for an hour without telling Linda Arndt where he was going

John Ramsey did not leave the house for an hour. If anything, it was for a few minutes, but not an hour.


-Tea

 

[DeeDee249]

LA mistakenly said that JR had left the house for an hour to get his mail. Actually, he didn't leave the house at all. He was likely in the basement, or in JBRs room. There was a mail slot in the front door- the mail was simply dropped through to the floor of the foyer. And I've never seen where anyone questioned why, with a 2-week trip planned (first to Charlevoix and then on the Disney's Big Red Boat) the Rs hadn't stopped their mail and had it held at the Post Office.
Remember that even when LE had "secured" JBR's room, it was simply by placing a strip of yellow crime scene tape across the door. Anyone could get over or under it, or remove it and put it back up. Do you actually think police checked the crime tape for fingerprints to see if any of the Rs or their friends touched it that day? Not likely. Did they check the small wooden latch on the wineceller for "untruder" prints? Not that I've ever read. R prints on it wouldn't matter much- it WAS their house. But the LACK of anyone else's prints would prove no intruder, as whoever put the body in there latched the door after they left. Officer French, the first LE on the scene, failed to open the door because he never saw the small wood latch at the top. So the last person to touch that latch was whoever left JBR in that room.

 

[JMO8778]

Not only do the prices of the tape and cord match the items on the receipt, but the department key also showed the items came from the same department in the store as the tape and cord.

I think she bought these items for her painting,and they were in the tote,along with the paintbrush used on JB at the time.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think she bought these items for her painting,and they were in the tote,along with the paintbrush used on JB at the time.

Me, too. They were right there on hand. All the tools for a faux kidnapping. Tape, cord. And the paintbrush all there in the tote. I wonder what would have been done as far as staging if the paint tote had not been there?

 

[JMO8778]

LA mistakenly said that JR had left the house for an hour to get his mail. Actually, he didn't leave the house at all. He was likely in the basement, or in JBRs room. There was a mail slot in the front door- the mail was simply dropped through to the floor of the foyer. And I've never seen where anyone questioned why, with a 2-week trip planned (first to Charlevoix and then on the Disney's Big Red Boat) the Rs hadn't stopped their mail and had it held at the Post Office.

I'm guessing LHP may have been the one to pick it up,she was to come on the 26th anyway.
having the PO hold your mail or the newsppr hold your ppr is a bad idea, btw..there are inside jobs that go on once your name and address is posted as being on vacation.it happened to a neighbor of mine.better to have a trusted friend come by and get it for you.

But the LACK of anyone else's prints would prove no intruder, as whoever put the body in there latched the door after they left. Officer French, the first LE on the scene, failed to open the door because he never saw the small wood latch at the top. So the last person to touch that latch was whoever left JBR in that room.

I thought he tried to get it open but it was a bit tough and he assumed it was stuck.
anyhow,nothing should have been touched,for sure.

 

[coloradokares]

I agree. I thought that's what I said.

I think the only part we disagree slightly on regardign how Jon Benet might feel about the punishment of a parent for the crime?

 

[rashomon]

I agree. Steve Thomas did not say it was not sexual abuse. He said he did not believe John Ramsey was sexually abusing his daughter, or at that is my take on Thomas's writings on the subject.

Sexual abuse from corporal cleaning versus sexual abuse for personal gratification are two different acts.

Would Steve Thomas have given John Ramsey a pass so easily if he had known about the fibers from John's shirt which had been found in the crotch area of JonBenet's underwear?
ST believes John Ramsey had nothing whatsoever to do with Jonbenet's death and the staging of the scene. He thought John was totally clueless before discovering JB in the wine cellar at 10 o' clock. But John's shirt fibers point to his involvement at least in the staging of the scene, if not in more.

Dr. Krugman (as opposed to Drs. McCann, Monteleone, Rau, who formed the panel of pediatric experts) was of the opinion that JB's genital injuries were consistent with a parent physically punishing her child for wetting/soiling isues. But would vigorous cleaning or douching produce symptoms like thickening of the hymenal rim in the 7 o'clock position, enlarging the vaginal opening to double its size, irregularities of the edges of the hymen, exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure not normally seen? (see Dr.McCann's report).
Wouldn't circular reddish hyperemia in the vaginal vestibule (see autopsy report) point to sexual penetration?
Also, isn't it unusual that a parent punishing her child for toileting issues would ony 'attack' her inner genital region and not inflict injuries to the outer genitals too?

I have never been a fence sitter in terms of RDI or IDI (imo too much evidence points to the Ramseys' involvement), but have always been a fence sitter as to whether JB had been the victim of abuse for sexual gratification or not.

If she was the victim of sexual abuse, who was her abuser?
Was her abuser also her killer? (not necessarily)
Was her abuser also involved in her violent death? (not necessarily)

Without the issue of sexual abuse coming into play as a possible factor, this would basically be a simple case: Patsy snapped and lost it, ran to John for help and he covered up for her because they both wanted to save what was left from the rest of the family.
But with sexual abuse, this case becomes very complex and many questions will arise.

jmo

 

[BOESP]

Hi Rash - please see replies in bold below.

Would Steve Thomas have given John Ramsey a pass so easily if he had known about the fibers from John's shirt which had been found in the crotch area of JonBenet's underwear?

I don't know the answer to that.

ST believes John Ramsey had nothing whatsoever to do with Jonbenet's death and the staging of the scene.

I didn't know that. I thought he only believed John wasn't sexually molesting JonBenet.

He thought John was totally clueless before discovering JB in the wine cellar at 10 o' clock. But John's shirt fibers point to his involvement at least in the staging of the scene, if not in more.

I have wondered, too, at what point John became involved, if at all. The shirt fibers, if what I read about them on the Internet is true, are pretty incriminating but at what point in the timeline did they get there is my question. Don't get me wrong. I believe John is up to his eyeballs in a cover-up. I just can't figure out when and what part he played.

Dr. Krugman (as opposed to Drs. McCann, Monteleone, Rau, who formed the panel of pediatric experts) was of the opinion that JB's genital injuries were consistent with a parent physically punishing her child for wetting/soiling isues. But would vigorous cleaning or douching produce symptoms like thickening of the hymenal rim in the 7 o'clock position, enlarging the vaginal opening to double its size, irregularities of the edges of the hymen, exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure not normally seen? (see Dr.McCann's report).

I would think that over a period of time inserting a douche nozzle in child that age and, perhaps, using a finger to apply medication/ointment, could cause similar injuries. I really have no idea how JonBenet's injuries occurred except to say based on the autopsy, if it was for sexual gratification the person must have been very gentle (gag ... "pervert" and "gentle" don't even belong in the same sentence together.)

Wouldn't circular reddish hyperemia in the vaginal vestibule (see autopsy report) point to sexual penetration?

My guess would be yes it would but it can't prove intent, such as was it for cleansing purposes or for sexual gratification.

Also, isn't it unusual that a parent punishing her child for toileting issues would ony 'attack' her inner genital region and not inflict injuries to the outer genitals too?

I don't think douching would injure the external organs. I can't speak for Detective Thomas, but I have always thought when he used the term "corporal cleaning" he meant it was for punishment rather than a parental attack intended to inflict injury (but that's just my opinion). Maybe he'll hold another teleconference some day.

I have never been a fence sitter in terms of RDI or IDI (imo too much evidence points to the Ramseys' involvement), but have always been a fence sitter as to whether JB had been the victim of abuse for sexual gratification or not.

That's where I stand too, Rash. In the beginning I waffled then decided to be a fence sitter, then decided there was way too much evidence and circumstances pointing to family involvement. I just can't figure out how it happened and who was being protected. I do believe it was an accidental death rather than a purposeful death.

If she was the victim of sexual abuse, who was her abuser?
Was her abuser also her killer? (not necessarily)
Was her abuser also involved in her violent death? (not necessarily)

I agree with the above. I have a list of 3-4 people I think could be the abuser, some family, some not. I won't name them here.

Without the issue of sexual abuse coming into play as a possible factor, this would basically be a simple case: Patsy snapped and lost it, ran to John for help and he covered up for her because they both wanted to save what was left from the rest of the family.
But with sexual abuse, this case becomes very complex and many questions will arise.

I just wish it could be proved if the sexual abuse was for personal gratification or a side-effect of some other event such as "corporal cleaning."

jmo

 

[icedtea4me]

Not only do the prices of the tape and cord match the items on the receipt, but the department key also showed the items came from the same department in the store as the tape and cord.

But were there other items in this department which were the same price? If so, then by the process of excluding these items can one include the tape and cord.


-Tea

 

[icedtea4me]

LA mistakenly said that JR had left the house for an hour to get his mail. Actually, he didn't leave the house at all. He was likely in the basement, or in JBRs room. There was a mail slot in the front door- the mail was simply dropped through to the floor of the foyer. And I've never seen where anyone questioned why, with a 2-week trip planned (first to Charlevoix and then on the Disney's Big Red Boat) the Rs hadn't stopped their mail and had it held at the Post Office.

DeeDee, since their mail went directly into their house, and not into a streetside mailbox to which any passerby could have access, I don't see any need to have had it held at the post office.


-Tea

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I just wish it could be proved if the sexual abuse was for personal gratification or a side-effect of some other event such as "corporal cleaning."

That is exactly where I stand. I tend to believe the problems JonBenet had staying dry both day and night were directly related to something going on in her life that was too much for her...and I think either the rigors of pageant training and participation were too much for her, or someone was doing something bad to her that they shouldn't have been doing, or both.

It seems obvious to me that something was going on with JonBenet - I do not believe the irregularities seen inside her body are the result of bubble baths, etc. There was too much damage (although not excessive damage, it was still there) and not all of it occurred the night she was killed.

I also believe the sexual assault JonBenet suffered the night she died was incurred upon her after she was unconscious, and I believe that the whole reason for that aspect of the staging was to cover up or confuse the evidence of prior assault that the stager knew may be found.

But once again...was that prior assault the result of someone using JonBenet for personal gratification, and if so, who, or was it the result of some type of corporal treatment...and again, if so, who was doing that to her, and what did they hope to accomplish by hurting a little girl like that?

IMO, the phrase "poor little rich girl" aptly describes the short life of JonBenet Ramsey, may she rest in peace.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, since their mail went directly into their house, and not into a streetside mailbox to which any passerby could have access, I don't see any need to have had it held at the post office.


-Tea

I don't think that they DID have it held at the Post Office. I merely said that if JR went outside to get his mail, that is the only reason he would have to do so.
There wasn't really a need to do that, as you point out. The mail simply falls on the floor. I have a similar mail slot at my house. But some things are too large to get through. So when I go away, I have my mail held at the Post Office. The Rs were going to be away for about 10 days or so, I believe. Of course, Post Office records at the time would have shown whether the mail was being held and whether anyone picked up the R mail on Dec. 26th. At my PO, you have to sign a form to have it held, and you have to sign for the mail when you pick it up. 10 years later, it's doubtful there would be PO records, but in 1996-97, they'd still have it.

 

[rashomon]

I would think that over a period of time inserting a douche nozzle in child that age and, perhaps, using a finger to apply medication/ointment, could cause similar injuries.

BOESP - just at thought - could the acute vaginal wound have been inflicted with the douche nozzle? I have just googled around since I didn't even know how exactly a douche looks like, but I've seen some pictures now - suppose Patsy, in anger, jabbed the douche nozzle inside her so vigorously that it started to bleed? For THEN it would make sense for Patsy to wipe JonBenet down afterward and put fresh underwer on her - because she wanted to hide this assault.
UKGuy used to bring up this point often, and I do think it is a valid point: why would parents who staged a sexual assault then wipe the child down at all and put clothing back on her? (My explanation was that Patsy just could not proceed with this part of the staging and abruptly stopped).
But if it was actually Patsy who 'assaulted' JonBenet physically, so to speak, then she would have had every reason to hide this later.

If memory serves, Steve Thomas never thought the vaginal wound was inflicted for staging purposes either - his theory was that Patsy inflicted this wound in a rage.

jmo

 

[BOESP]

BOESP - just at thought - could the acute vaginal wound have been inflicted with the douche nozzle? I have just googled around since I didn't even know how exactly a douche looks like, but I've seen some pictures now - suppose Patsy, in anger, jabbed the douche nozzle inside her so vigorously that it started to bleed? For THEN it would make sense for Patsy to wipe JonBenet down afterward and put fresh underwer on her - because she wanted to hide this assault.
UKGuy used to bring up this point often, and I do think it is a valid point: why would parents who staged a sexual assault then wipe the child down at all and put clothing back on her? (My explanation was that Patsy just could not proceed with this part of the staging and abruptly stopped).
But if it was actually Patsy who 'assaulted' JonBenet physically, so to speak, then she would have had every reason to hide this later.

If memory serves, Steve Thomas never thought the vaginal wound was inflicted for staging purposes either - his theory was that Patsy inflicted this wound in a rage.

jmo

Yes, on all accounts. What you said above is exactly what I've been trying to explain all along. In a child that age, the nozzle, particularly if used roughly, could easily create the same damage as digital penetration. In particular, a finger could be used to guide the nozzle, creating abrasions/scratches that could bleed in addition to or in place of any damage the nozzle might cause.

In re-reading several chapters in Thomas's book last night, he stated a splinter was found. It is possible, in my opinion, that a splinter from the paintbrush could have gotten in the vagina by transference from a finger or other means. That's not to say I know that the paintbrush was not used on JonBenet. I'm saying that a splinter was found, according to Thomas. Coupled with the autopsy the splinter was either of birefringent material or there were two minute bits found: one birefringent and the other a splinter (which implies wood to me).

Thomas also seemed to say that John Ramsey was in the dark about what happened until sometime the next morning after the police arrived. He thought John probably found JonBenet's body in the basement on John's first trip to the basement while Arndt was in charge.

 

[rashomon]

Thomas also seemed to say that John Ramsey was in the dark about what happened until sometime the next morning after the police arrived. He thought John probably found JonBenet's body in the basement on John's first trip to the basement while Arndt was in charge.

Yes, this was ST's theory: that John was clueless as to what happened before he discovered her body at 10 am, i. e. when he suddenly vanished out of Arndt's sight, probably going down to the basement.

 

[Tober]

Yes, this was ST's theory: that John was clueless as to what happened before he discovered her body at 10 am, i. e. when he suddenly vanished out of Arndt's sight, probably going down to the basement.

The problem with the clueless John theory is that he colluded with Patsy as early as the 911 call, by claiming Burke was asleep, when actually, Burke was out of bed and in distance of the phone. IMO he would have to know WHY he was giving a false version of events to police.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, on all accounts. What you said above is exactly what I've been trying to explain all along. In a child that age, the nozzle, particularly if used roughly, could easily create the same damage as digital penetration. In particular, a finger could be used to guide the nozzle, creating abrasions/scratches that could bleed in addition to or in place of any damage the nozzle might cause.

In re-reading several chapters in Thomas's book last night, he stated a splinter was found. It is possible, in my opinion, that a splinter from the paintbrush could have gotten in the vagina by transference from a finger or other means. That's not to say I know that the paintbrush was not used on JonBenet. I'm saying that a splinter was found, according to Thomas. Coupled with the autopsy the splinter was either of birefringent material or there were two minute bits found: one birefringent and the other a splinter (which implies wood to me).

Thomas also seemed to say that John Ramsey was in the dark about what happened until sometime the next morning after the police arrived. He thought John probably found JonBenet's body in the basement on John's first trip to the basement while Arndt was in charge.

BOESP.

But its all speculation, even Steve Thomas admits as much in his book, its just one of the many theories that are considered, as is the incest theory backed up with search warrants to look for child , at both Ramsey residences.

I cannot see where douching and corporal punishment mean the same thing, unless you want to qualify and make it conditional. Also where is the evidence, did Patsy purchase douching packs, were they itemized on any checking slips, were any discovered in the house, and just why would Patsy be applying an adult hygene device to a 6-year old girl. Did Dr Beuf know about this, was it sanctioned by him?

This theory reminds me of the intruder theory, douching did it, lets find the evidence, omg JonBenet's hymen was damaged, gotcha!

The splinter has been covered in other threads, suffice to say that since it was birefringent material, which is technical code for saying, Coroner Meyer knew exactly what the splinter was made from, but he was not making it public! This also means Steve Thomas knew what it was made from too.

There is also the distinct possibility, that the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet!

.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP.

But its all speculation, even Steve Thomas admits as much in his book, its just one of the many theories that are considered, as is the incest theory backed up with search warrants to look for child , at both Ramsey residences.

I cannot see where douching and corporal punishment mean the same thing, unless you want to qualify and make it conditional. Also where is the evidence, did Patsy purchase douching packs, were they itemized on any checking slips, were any discovered in the house, and just why would Patsy be applying an adult hygene device to a 6-year old girl. Did Dr Beuf know about this, was it sanctioned by him?

This theory reminds me of the intruder theory, douching did it, lets find the evidence, omg JonBenet's hymen was damaged, gotcha!

The splinter has been covered in other threads, suffice to say that since it was birefringent material, which is technical code for saying, Coroner Meyer knew exactly what the splinter was made from, but he was not making it public! This also means Steve Thomas knew what it was made from too.

There is also the distinct possibility, that the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet!

.

If you can't see that douching a six-year-old child is equivalent to corporal punishment nothing I would say will help.

My speculation is as good as your speculation. That's about all I can say in response to your questions.

 

[UKGuy]

If you can't see that douching a six-year-old child is equivalent to corporal punishment nothing I would say will help.

My speculation is as good as your speculation. That's about all I can say in response to your questions.

BOESP

My speculation is as good as your speculation. That's about all I can say in response to your questions.

That must mean Lou Smit's Intruder Theory is just as good too, since its also pure speculation.

The difference between your speculation and mine is that mine is based upon forensic evidence!


Where is Patsy's douching equipment?


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