Linguistics

[tapu]

Murri--good lord! That is too much to take in. It sounds mythical! How sure can someone be at this point that those details are verified and not distorted?

Ziggy--I can't get drawn in. It's too complex and I can barely get groceries in the house, with my daily commute! I'll have to learn most of it as we go.

Madeline and Claudi--I see the sarcasm and punctuation features you're identifying, but it's my opinion that they are too common to be meaningful here. That doesn't mean that the similarities aren't due, possibly, to the same writer, but I just think they are not distinctive enough to draw conclusions from.

 

[MurriFlower]

Murri--good lord! That is too much to take in. It sounds mythical! How sure can someone be at this point that those details are verified and not distorted?

Far as I know, it's all true.

So now, you've got to wonder how they weren't investigated more thoroughly, haven't you? Apparently his DNA results 'weren't conclusive', but he was supposedly cleared (by ST) on the basis of being too weak from a heart operation in August. More acting?

You'd probably be interested to hear that when he was asked for an alibi, he replied with something like "I went to bed at 8 pm" LOL. There's so much more about these two that is suspicious.

 

[madeleine]

Apparently his DNA results 'weren't conclusive', but he was supposedly cleared (by ST) on the basis of being too weak from a heart operation in August. More acting?

I myself am more suspicious when it comes to her not him.I don't think he was acting re not feeling so well.IF the Santa's were involved I think she was the mastermind.Maybe he(Bill) doesn't even have a clue?Maybe she had other accomplices.

:twocents:

 

[madeleine]

Here's a snippet of Susan Stine's writing when she pretended to be Mark Beckner :

"Steve, I know we've had our differences in the past, but I want you to know I'm behind you all the way in this B.S. lawsuit the Ramseys filed, as are others here. I'm sure (Ramsey attorney Lin) Wood is bluffing. . . . Call me and let me know what I can do to help. Remember: truth is on our side. (Signed) Mark."

B.S...... both in caps and followed with dots....S.B.T.C. ?

Interesting.You know,I always wanted to ask you guys what you think about the R's friendship with the Stines AFTER the murder.After all they were the last ones who were visited before JB died but they weren't called that morning(why?).They become pretty close after the murder.

And something else.I know that it's hard to remember details after such a long time and I don't think "not remembering" is always a lie or hiding the truth BUT this sounds strange to me

LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.
8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy
9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't
10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think
11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.


You don't remember if YOU went in?I agree that you can't remember everything about that night but it's not like everything is blacked out and visiting someone or not is not something you wouldn't recall IMO.Just sayin.

Too bad we don't have the Stine's interviews.I bet THEY remember who walked in and who didn't.

 

[madeleine]

JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I know Patsy
16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,
17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated
18 whether we should go over there. But that's
19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home
20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would
21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.
22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you
23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).
24 Why?25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over

0110
1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it
2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we
3 went home. And we had to get up early next
4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all
5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got
6 back.



It always bothered me....the 23party,these visits,the friends being called that morning,their reactions after JB's death.What is it about these friends.....If RDI I am pretty sure some of them know something.Or maybe something happened with JB (an accident,kids playing) and they are all covering up.Or maybe one of them did it.I don't know!But everything seems to be about these people.The Ramsey's and the people around them(friends,housekeepers,Santa's).If IDI,not a stranger.
Maybe it IS like JMcr said........something about the "village" (small foreign faction?)

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

ruh roh tapu...welcome to getting sucked into the JonBenet case! This was THEE case that got me interested in who done it online, the forums and going to law school. If you get seriously interested I've got some archived stuff and good links for both sides. I started out pretty RDI but over the years, and especially since we've seen how brazen perps will be now (back then an intruder in the home, molesting, killing - very unheard of) I think IDI is possible. The weirdos involved in this case are endless.

I'm leaning towards genteel (sp?) male trying to sound tough, but how accurate would the writing style analysis really be if the person was trying to use phrases that he/she had heard in movies; more like a copycat then the real person?

It's a very confusing note for sure and SBTC is still a big giant mystery.

Overwhelming odds a male is involved due to victim profile. Sexually assaulted and strangled six year old girl puts the odds hugely in favor of a male offender. The longjohn waistband AND inside crotch DNA underscores this.

Also there are many, many expressions in the note typical of a male: if you want her to see 1997, tactics and countermeasures, dont try to grow a brain, victory, small foreign faction, we monitor you. Lots of guy flick buzz words from techno crime movies.

If JBR was murdered by an intruder, then a lot had to happen while not disturbing the parents. This would probably require some personal strength, more than one person, or both.

The author probably IS tough. The nighttime sexual assault, garrote strangulation and headbash combo with displaced fragment, while not disturbing anyone, isn't exactly elementary school. Not to mention the idea of beheading a child...

 

[BBB167893]

SNIPPED QUOTE from DAVE's post:

I realize that, tapu. You're right. By themselves, none of them are very specific. But (and you know more than me, so correct me wherever I go wrong), to me, it's a question of combined probabilities. That is to say, taking everything all together. IOWs, here we have all of those points combined into one person who can be PROVEN to have been there when the killing took place. I'm sort of the "big picture guy" around here.


2 things that pop up for me:

1) The features of the writing may be more common than you think. Even when combined, I don't think they would constitute anything like evidence in a court. Tying them to Patsy would not be incriminating then. Sure, it might say that Patsy would be more likely than anyone else we know is there, but someone else still could have been there and written it.

Like I said, tapu: you know more about it than I do. In that case, I'm interested in what factors you'd be looking for. Interestingly, you're analysis seems to agree with that of others.

2) I sense a fallacy in your reasoning about "one person who can be PROVEN to have been there when the killing took place." It's like in the last part of (1) up there, I'm thinking now. Anyway, even if Patsy can be proven to have been there, that in no way implies that other(s) could not have been. Unless I misunderstand. I'm kind of wearing out here.

It's not really a misunderstanding, tapu. You make an honest point. But I'm an adherent to Occam's Razor. Yes, it's not impossible for someone else to have been there who had these characteristics you speak of, but which is more likely to be true?

 

[tapu]

The Santas, the Fernies, I feel like I'm reading sci-fi....


I'm steadfast on it being a woman. Oh, that reminds me: Whenever I read over or say aloud, "Don't try to grow a brain, John," it sounds uncannily like a wife saying it to her husband. I can't think of that line any other way. It seems way more likely to be that than it does to have someone saying that to a person who is not their partner.

Anyway, again, not in any way conclusive.

These Santas, esp the Mrs., weren't investigated in full?? I would investigate the crap out of them. Not the guy so much, but yeah the wife.

 

[tapu]

You make an honest point. But I'm an adherent to Occam's Razor. Yes, it's not impossible for someone else to have been there who had these characteristics you speak of, but which is more likely to be true?

Well... there is apparently a whole group who believe that someone was indeed there, and I think I've heard that this is most of LE's position now. So, if someone were there, then, I believe, that these features of writing are so common that there's a very good chance they'd show up in that person's writing--maybe as much of a chance as not.

 

[BBB167893]

Below I've quoted excerpts from SuperDave's (SU-per DAVE!!) summary of what FBI profilers have said about the RN. Then I offer my comments.

First, I want to explain further what I said above about "profilers": indeed I think "profiling" (as practiced by the FBI) is unscientific and historically unsuccessful; however, there are subparts of the process, such as linguistic analysis, that I think, used properly by experts in the field, have the potential for revealing information useful in a criminal investigation.

Let's do this.

___________________
Roger DePue is the former head of the FBI Behavioral Science Unit. In 2006, he went public with what he had told Alex Hunter in private:

--"The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested," the note says. Depue called that an unusual instruction. "The statement sounds caring, motherly," tapu: I get no such feel from this statement. (What mother says such a thing using "delivery, exhausting, advise, and rested"?) It makes me think of when the guy with the bomb collar in Erie PA was given directions to go all over the place for further instructions. This kind of statement would make sense to me if that kind of plan is what the writer had in mind.

Well, I realize I'm going out on a limb here, but "I advise you to be rested, as the delivery will be exhausting" almost sounds like something a doctor would say to a woman going into labor. At least, that's what they told my mother.

--The note warns that if the instructions are not carried out precisely, "You will also be denied her remains for proper burial." Depue said. "In my opinion, proper burial is of more concern to a female than to a male," Depue said. "Oh, really? Are you basing that opinion on how different you and your wife feel about it?" WSers, does anyone else here think, as I do, that if we asked bereaved mothers and fathers how they feel about having a proper burial for their child, not many more daddies would say "whatever" than would mommies.

That might be an edifying experiment.

--"The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them," the note says. The idea of "gentlemen watching over" has a feminine tone, Depue said. "Watching over" is also a caring concept," he said. That one makes a lot of sense. "two gentlemen," "watching over," do not particularly like," and "provoke" are all figurative language. Specifically it's the device of understatement and is meant to imply exactly the opposite--potential brutality. I don't think it has anything to do with the user's gender. Incidentally, does "watching over" in that sentence make any of you feel like it's a caring concept?

By the same token, does it sound like the kind of language a brutal kidnapper would use?

--In Depue's opinion, "The writer is a well-educated, middle-aged female." Agree with age and gender; as for well-educated, seems more like high school plus "some college," although I tend to be shocked regularly at the low literacy of college grads.

Or perhaps someone who had been out of school for a while.

Former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt said that he and several other profilers had studied the note and concluded that "despite threats of violence throughout the note, Van Zandt says, it has a 'softness' suggesting its author was a woman or perhaps a 'genteel man." Seriously, besides looking at the note after you heard that these charlatans thought it sounded "soft," did YOU think it sounded soft? I sure don't.
What I am saying above is not that a woman didn't write it. I just think their reasoning is questionable--not based on a shred of evidence other than their opinions. Conversely, I base my determination of female writer on features like pronoun use--which have been shown to hold true in established research.

I put forth the suggestion that much of what the profilers have to say about the RN can be traced back to their gender and their own preconceived notions of the opposite sex. To me, I can see this note being written by a woman--but not because it sounds "motherly." I think it was written by an aggressive, "alpha-male" type female, who is psychologically powerful and controlling.

That I can see!

 

[tapu]

About the "beheading" remark: it comes as a shock, the way it breaks the tone, ups the ante, of the letter. I'm under the impression that it's not something the writer usually bandies about. Wonder if there was any world news at that time that reported beheadings? This was before the current level of awareness of America of such things happening in other cultures. Might have come into the writer's mind that way, carrying a shock for them that they called upon mentally when they wanted to make that sharp impression. Suddenly coming back to a focus on this being convincingly threatening.


I'm starting to feel like one does after analyzing a linguistic sample perhaps too long!

 

[BBB167893]

These questions stem from both Turtle's and DeeDee's posts above: Is Mrs. Santa Southern? Is she aggressive?

The point I'm making (I think.) is that of course Patsy Ramsey is the most likely writer if she fits the characteristics we're focusing on; however, she is not the only woman that fits the bill. And besides Mrs. Santa, are there other women in the Ramsey's life that might be considered?

All that adds up to reasonable doubt in my book, so I wouldn't be able to conclude from what I've seen that Patsy Ramsey is definitely the writer.

What you say carries a lot of weight. But it goes back to the "big picture" with me. We know she was there. We don't know that anyone else can be placed there that night.

The one part I read more closely presented something that I had marked in my study, too: that the complete absence of Jon-Benet's name in the note implies that she is already dead. I don't think this necessarily entails that the writer be the killer or a parent; however.

Not by itself. But the Rs have a habit of not referring to JB by her name since she was killed. Seems like psychological distancing to me.

 

[BBB167893]

There's a playwright who is a suspect?? This case amazes me, every new detail I hear!

Is the playwright someone we're already talking about? (a ramsey, a santa...?)

Both tried their hands at playwrighting.

 

[JBean]

Just need to say that while I don't post in here I do read. This thread is absolutely fascinating. thanks.

 

[BBB167893]

About the "beheading" remark: it comes as a shock, the way it breaks the tone, ups the ante, of the letter. I'm under the impression that it's not something the writer usually bandies about. Wonder if there was any world news at that time that reported beheadings? This was before the current level of awareness of America of such things happening in other cultures. Might have come into the writer's mind that way, carrying a shock for them that they called upon mentally when they wanted to make that sharp impression. Suddenly coming back to a focus on this being convincingly threatening.


I'm starting to feel like one does after analyzing a linguistic sample perhaps too long!

tapu, I've been saying the same thing for quite a while now. To wit: the note seems to be an attempt to play on popular fears, and one of them is terrorism. As you say, we as Americans were not as up-to-speed on Islamist violence as we are now, but even back in 1996, it was common knowledge that they cut off heads in the Middle East. As for world news at the time, there was something that I've brought up before. The year that JB was killed was in many ways an important year, because that summer was really the first time that Mom and Pop Middle American started to hear the name "Osama bin Laden."

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

About the "beheading" remark: it comes as a shock, the way it breaks the tone, ups the ante, of the letter. I'm under the impression that it's not something the writer usually bandies about. Wonder if there was any world news at that time that reported beheadings? This was before the current level of awareness of America of such things happening in other cultures. Might have come into the writer's mind that way, carrying a shock for them that they called upon mentally when they wanted to make that sharp impression. Suddenly coming back to a focus on this being convincingly threatening.


I'm starting to feel like one does after analyzing a linguistic sample perhaps too long!

There was no news reporting beheadings of small children. Its apparently a truly unique idea both globally and historically. Truly one of a kind, to go along with the one of a kind ransom note I guess?

I mean, the whole thing is totally bizarre. I've never, in my 35-year career, seen anything like this." --Robert Ressler

The ransom note, its placement and contents seeming to provide the parents with some hope--pay the ransom get their daughter back--only to be dashed later in a shocking discovery. As if shock was an objective?

 

[MurriFlower]

I'm starting to feel like one does after analyzing a linguistic sample perhaps too long!

We enjoy having the opinion of someone who is 'fresh' to the case but who also has experience in this area. If you get bored, you can always analyse some of the posts on this forum. I'm not at all sure that some of them actually want the murderer found LOL!

 

[MurriFlower]

The Santas, the Fernies, I feel like I'm reading sci-fi....

I'm steadfast on it being a woman. Oh, that reminds me: Whenever I read over or say aloud, "Don't try to grow a brain, John," it sounds uncannily like a wife saying it to her husband. I can't think of that line any other way. It seems way more likely to be that than it does to have someone saying that to a person who is not their partner.

Anyway, again, not in any way conclusive.

These Santas, esp the Mrs., weren't investigated in full?? I would investigate the crap out of them. Not the guy so much, but yeah the wife.

Yes the last part sounds nagging like a wife - or an ex-lover - or a mother-in-law - or even a motherly type (housekeeper?). I've felt from the start that the houskeeper had some involvement, but except for her comment after Santa's death (sounded like they were well acquainted), can find no link between them. PR said straight up it looked like LHP's handwriting.

 

[MurriFlower]

Murri--good lord! That is too much to take in. It sounds mythical!

I just wanted to take you up on the mythical comment.

Are you aware of a computer game called WarCraft? It's one of those interractive multi level strategy games with mythical characters based on fantasy, folklore and ancient religion. People become 'hooked' on them, especially young folk. You can play on line with other enthusiasts all over the world.

We have discovered a coincidence, in that one of the programmers has the same name as the son of one of our prime suspects....... Yup the Santa son -- the one that went to jail. Don't know if it's the same person or not. We've also got a clip of an interview where he was sitting in front of a computer. Not conclusive no, but probably better than a lot of the RDI 'evidence' LOL.

 

[DeeDee249]

We enjoy having the opinion of someone who is 'fresh' to the case but who also has experience in this area. If you get bored, you can always analyse some of the posts on this forum. I'm not at all sure that some of them actually want the murderer found LOL!

Are you willing to name names? Because I can't think of anyone here who doesn't want JB's killer found. Why would they not want the case solved? So that we can all continue the debate? I hardly think that would be reason enough to keep this case in perpetual limbo.
What gives you that impression?