Lisa and the river

[Deleted member 39678]

From the Irwin house to the quickest, easiest access point to the Mighty Mo, is less than a 2 minute drive. I have driven it myself, several times. I know it's been posted in this thread before, & elsewhere on this forum, but I think it is important to post again: Here is a video, than will give you an idea of the area:

Lisa Irwin neighborhood - YouTube

How long do you think it would take if you had to walk the same route?

And if you were carrying a child the size of Lisa, would it be noticeable to people nearby the route you were walking?

 

[KsStormy]

How long do you think it would take if you had to walk the same route?

And if you were carrying a child the size of Lisa, would it be noticeable to people nearby the route you were walking?

I haven't personally walked the route, but have spoken to 2 locals who have. One older gentleman said it took him about 10-15 minutes, I believe... it is all downhill from the house to the river. Another lady that grew up in the area & used to swim in the river as a child said there is a well-worn path from where the video shows the car pulling up by the old grain elevator down to the river... very easy access to the river.
As far as being seen? I understand there is also a storm drain that runs from behind the Irwin home, directly down to the river... locals that were doing searches of the area have taken many pictures. The whole area is HEAVILY wooded, as can be seen by the video. IMHO it would not be a difficult trip to & from the river either walking or by vehicle, by any means.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I haven't personally walked the route, but have spoken to 2 locals who have. One older gentleman said it took him about 10-15 minutes, I believe... it is all downhill from the house to the river. Another lady that grew up in the area & used to swim in the river as a child said there is a well-worn path from where the video shows the car pulling up by the old grain elevator down to the river... very easy access to the river.
As far as being seen? I understand there is also a storm drain that runs from behind the Irwin home, directly down to the river... locals that were doing searches of the area have taken many pictures. The whole area is HEAVILY wooded, as can be seen by the video. IMHO it would not be a difficult trip to & from the river either walking or by vehicle, by any means.

BBM
Do you know how much of a grade it is down to the river?

 

[KsStormy]

BBM
Do you know how much of a grade it is down to the river?

Grade? No clue...but was all downhill when I drove it,as you can see from the video...?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Grade? No clue...but was all downhill when I drove it,as you can see from the video...?

Next time take a GPS and take elevation readings. Every 100 to 200 yards should due. Grade is important when walking downhill and more importantly uphill.

 

[SyraKelly]

Next time take a GPS and take elevation readings. Every 100 to 200 yards should due. Grade is important when walking downhill and more importantly uphill.

HUH!!:waitasec:

 

[norest4thewicked]

Next time take a GPS and take elevation readings. Every 100 to 200 yards should due. Grade is important when walking downhill and more importantly uphill.

I don't see grade as being all that important when a person has a dead child in their hands and is trying to dispose of said child in the quickest way. As a matter of fact, I think that shock and panic might take over and a lot of variables (such as grade) would be thrown out in these circumstances.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I don't think the elevation change is important. We are not dealing with a mountainous region, it's Missouri. There is only a 1500 ft in elevation difference in the entire state, the highest point is 1772 ft and lowest is 230 ft. That area ranges from 230-500ft, not a significant elevation change.

DB & JI both should be used to carrying/holding Lisa, she weighed 15-20 lbs, either one of them carrying her for a mile shouldn't be a difficult task. It's relatively flat terrain, they weren't scaling mountains, sliding down cliffs, or some other seemingly impossible task.

If there wasn't a cadaver hit in the house, I'd even suggest they had Lisa walk most of the way. Remember if indeed they did carry a dead Lisa to the river, the journey home was w/o that extra 15-20 lbs.

 

[KsStormy]

Factor in adrenaline, makes things much easier, IMHO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Looks like the consensus is that it's an easy walk to and from the river. The next question is, why didn't anyone see Lisa being taken to the river? Did the perpetrator just get lucky? Or is it because the area is conducive to being undetected while walking at night?

 

[iamnotagolem]

Looks like the consensus is that it's an easy walk to and from the river. The next question is, why didn't anyone see Lisa being taken to the river? Did the perpetrator just get lucky? Or is it because the area is conducive to being undetected while walking at night?

I've wondered that, too. I guess it depends on what time she was taken to the river. I realize this is no new case, but it still kills me thinking about her being put in the river.

Moving on, if you look at google maps it looks like there is a wooded area that would have provided them with some cover to go to the river at night, if they went that way instead of following the roads.

My other thought is, if they disposed of Lisa on Sunday night. They could have done so with a much easier time frame, not needing to secure an entire night of alibi.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I've wondered that, too. I guess it depends on what time she was taken to the river. I realize this is no new case, but it still kills me thinking about her being put in the river.

Moving on, if you look at google maps it looks like there is a wooded area that would have provided them with some cover to go to the river at night, if they went that way instead of following the roads.

My other thought is, if they disposed of Lisa on Sunday night. They could have done so with a much easier time frame, not needing to secure an entire night of alibi.

BBM
I guess that something happening to Lisa on Sunday is possible, but I have a hard time believing it myself. It means that several people would have to be in on a conspiracy to cover it up. Then you have to answer why they would be part of the conspiracy and how they could all prevent LE from uncovering it. Just doesn't seem too likely to me. JMO.

 

[KsStormy]

BBM
I guess that something happening to Lisa on Sunday is possible, but I have a hard time believing it myself. It means that several people would have to be in on a conspiracy to cover it up. Then you have to answer why they would be part of the conspiracy and how they could all prevent LE from uncovering it. Just doesn't seem too likely to me. JMO.

Why would that mean that others were covering up? Who? As far as I have read, the last time others outside the immediate family saw her, it was Sunday during the day. Who knows what happened the night after the alleged birthday party?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Why would that mean that others were covering up? Who? As far as I have read, the last time others outside the immediate family saw her, it was Sunday during the day. Who knows what happened the night after the alleged birthday party?

SB, her daughter and the two boys.

 

[KsStormy]

SB, her daughter and the two boys.

SB's account hasn't been released, her daughter was only 4, & is not credible, & we also haven't heard what the 2 boys told LE. The long delay in allowing them to be re-interviewed allowed for coaching.
MOO
:moo:

 

[Deleted member 39678]

SB's account hasn't been released, her daughter was only 4, & is not credible, & we also haven't heard what the 2 boys told LE. The long delay in allowing them to be re-interviewed allowed for coaching.
MOO
:moo:

I have no way of proving it but I believe that SB was inside the house on Monday and saw Lisa. As for the minor children, they all must have been coached very well in order to cover up Lisa's disappearance on Sunday. I'm not trying to convince anyone who believes that something happened to Lisa on Sunday, I'm just saying that I don't feel it's very likely.

A source familiar with the case earlier this week told KCTV5 that Brando and her 4-year-old daughter were inside baby Lisa's home about 4:30 p.m. Oct. 3. Bradley told People magazine that she cooked dinner for her family, Brando and her daughter, which they shared about 5:30 p.m.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15953146/neighbor-says

 

[KsStormy]

I have no way of proving it but I believe that SB was inside the house on Monday and saw Lisa. As for the minor children, they all must have been coached very well in order to cover up Lisa's disappearance on Sunday. I'm not trying to convince anyone who believes that something happened to Lisa on Sunday, I'm just saying that I don't feel it's very likely.



http://www.kctv5.com/story/15953146/neighbor-says

I don't recall SB ever saying she SAW Lisa. If she did, that hasn't been released, to my knowledge...? As for the boys, if indeed something happened to Lisa in the home either Sunday or Monday, who's to say they were witnesses? They very well could have been in their room playing, out in the yard, down in the basement/party room... and could have been told "Lisa's asleep, she has a cold & isn't feeling good". Children that age would just say OK & run along on their merry way. If mom & dad say "stay out of Lisa's room, she's sick & needs her sleep", wouldn't they do just that?
MOO
:moo:

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I don't recall SB ever saying she SAW Lisa. If she did, that hasn't been released, to my knowledge...? As for the boys, if indeed something happened to Lisa in the home either Sunday or Monday, who's to say they were witnesses? They very well could have been in their room playing, out in the yard, down in the basement/party room... and could have been told "Lisa's asleep, she has a cold & isn't feeling good". Children that age would just say OK & run along on their merry way. If mom & dad say "stay out of Lisa's room, she's sick & needs her sleep", wouldn't they do just that?
MOO
:moo:

Your right, we don't know what SB has said about anything. But we do know that she was over to the house that day. In my opinion it would be pretty risky to have her over if Debbie was going to stage a kidnapping later that night and Lisa was already gone. A more believable scenario would have Debbie telling SB that she didn't feel well or was tired and could they visit later.

As for the boys, you could be right. But we don't know what they told LE either. And if they did say that they hadn't seen Lisa since Sunday, very bad for DB/JI. Then were back to what SB saw on Monday. Again we don't know for sure. JMO.

 

[iamnotagolem]

The reason I believe a Sunday disposal is possible is due to the lack of witnesses that have come forward claiming to see Lisa on Sunday after the party. No one saw Lisa out in the yard playing on Monday? SB didn't question why Lisa was in bed from 6:40-forever? Supposedly DB made a chicken dinner at 5:40 during the 2 hour period in which Lisa was supposed to be awaken but no mention of Lisa at dinner.

It's possible LE has solid confirmation of Lisa's presence on Monday, but we aren't privy to that information.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I know this isn't really on topic, but I keep going back and forth on whether or not she is dead.

The parents are the reason for both of my thoughts.

If Lisa is dead it explains why the parents aren't trying to find her.

If Lisa was kidnapped, Lisa's not being found is due to a lack of effort. Misinformation, lies, and lack of cooperation with LE.

In all honesty if Lisa was kidnapped it's no surprise that they have gotten away with it this long. No one is looking for her, even her description was inaccurate or not well described.