Logistics Analysis: How to get child's body into a stroller while wrangling a toddler

[neetz57]

I think her best shot of getting Kyron out of school would have been to tell him she had to go get some medicine for K. and she wanted him to watch her in the car on the way over (although Andrea from the gym describes Kiara as being with Terri when she saw her at the store). She was allegedly at the first Fred Meyers by 9:12 and the second one between 9:30 and 10:00 am. She may have promised him he would be back at school by the talent show. It would be easiest logistically to then go straight home. The fact that Dede was already at the farm working by 9:00 but they now say they last saw her at 10:30 (and then noticed she was gone after 11:00) could mean that Terri called Dede for help from home and went to pick her up. They were both off the grid at about the same time (or at least Terri's story of driving K. around for an hour and a half cannot be verified). Terri checks in at the gym at 11:40 (although we have no confirmation she was there the entire hour). We don't know who else was at the gym. But that looks to me like Terri wanted part of that time documented.

If I'm not mistaken, the timeline was changed for DDS having been missing from her workplace at 10am.
MOO---It's always been my suspicion that she was a witness, or an accomplice, after the fact.


If Dede had planned on being involved ahead of time, I seriously doubt she would have disappeared from the farm suddenly and missed that lunch. She would have come up with a story or something. This sounds to me like someone who got an emergency call from a friend. Which would not rule out premeditation on Terri's part. She could have easily staged an "accident" and knew she could count on her friend to drop everything and help her out.

Anyone who parked at the back of the lots at the storeslike Terri did may not have wanted someone in the truck to be seen with her. Which could have been Kyron, since Dede was ostensibly at the farm. Although is does not rule out anyone else either.

If I'm not mistaken, the timeline was changed as far as when DDS was missing from her job to 10:00am.
It's always been MOO that she was a witness, or an accomplice, after the fact. For some reason, I don't get that she was in on it from the beginning.
Of course, it's MOO.

 

[neetz57]

While the stroller theory is entirely possible, I just can't wrap my head around it.
I think it's much more likely that a live child walked out of school that day. It's entirely possible that she said, wait here while I pull the truck up to pick you up. Which would explain if no one saw the two leave together. We don't really know what happened, but it's good to discuss all the possibilities.
I think it's very possible that he was taken to a second location, (after the stores,) and either passed off or taken care of in some sort of way.
He could've been left in the truck while she went into the stores and she could've picked up some benedryl or some other medicine to incapacitate him.
Or, since KH seems to think she may have an interest in guns, something could've been done with a weapon.
I don't think this was an accident. Sounds to me like careful planning.
But even the most careful plan has holes in it.
This is MOO.

 

[miabellamoure]

Well then there's another pertinent question, and I have no idea because my baby is now almost 30.

Would strollers available today accomodate Kyron's height/weight/girth/whatever?

lol...my youngest baby is now 24 and from what my grandkiddies are riding in these days...I'd say a 7 yr old Kyron would have to be folded up like a pretzel to be able to ride in a stroller or his legs would be dragging for sure.

My vote on this theory is...no way, no how is this plausible without causing attention to the VERY large baby in the stroller.:snooty:

 

[GrainneDhu]

It came out of discussion in another thread. My biggest struggle is getting Terri and Kyron out of the school. If I can think of a reasonable way she could have gotten an unconscious or deceased Kyron into a stroller with baby K running around, say in a restroom, it works for me.

Not sure what kind of link there would be. Links are for contended facts. I contended none.

Most restroom doors open inwards, towards the bathroom.

So if I were doing this, I'd plant my butt against the door to block it, let my toddler roam, pick up the lifeless body of the 7 year old by the shoulders/waist and sort of pour him into the stroller. Strap him in, do something so that his face is not readily visible (baseball cap, maybe?), call my toddler to me and I'd be ready to roll.

It would take maybe 60-90 seconds, depending on the construction of the stroller.

However, I doubt that this is what happened. I think it is much more likely that Kyron left the school on his own two feet, willingly. Who he left with, I do not know.

 

[GrainneDhu]

My problem is what to do with baby K while getting Kyron into the stroller. A baby that age toddling around is, to me, too apt to get into the filthy stalls, or even to open the door, or get into *something*. That's what hangs me up about this, and makes it highly unlikely.

SBM

When I think of someone cold bloodedly killing a seven year old in a school bathroom, I don't think of someone who is going to get particularly freaked out if her toddler enters a stall.

Easiest way to block the door is to use your own butt. That would keep other people out and keep the toddler in.

This was at the beginning of the school day, so the stalls were probably clean. I know in my area, there's concern about MRSA and other bacterial nasties, so school bathrooms are sanitised each day.

Plus, I'm old enough to remember my mother saying "everyone eats a peck of dirt before they die." I think kids thrive on getting dirty, so I'd carry babywipes and just wipe off her hands (and possibly face) before I left the bathroom.

How else could you restrain a toddler while you put the other child into a stroller? You moms of young children - is there a restraint of any sort you can stick in your pocket? A harness you could clip a leash-like end to a door handle or something?

Wow. That sure would make a toddler... fussy...

Easy. Leading reins. Toddler wears a little chest harness and the leading reins fasten in the back, so that the toddler can't reach them.

My mother is English, so to her leading reins were perfectly normal. My sister used them as well. In my experience, toddlers don't get frustrated or fussy with them, at least nothing like they get when they are constantly held by the hand. Leading reins are comfortable to the toddler. They give them some room to roam and explore. They're also so much more comfortable for little bodies than being held by the hand.

 

[GrainneDhu]

well, I have a hard time assuming it would be do-able, b/c IMO that wouldn't be the case, my 7yr old boy has tried to sit in his sister's stroller and it wasn't pushable by anyone.. his rear end hung down so low thru the seat part that the wheels were not physically turnable. He is a good bit younger than Kyron but about the same size.

SBM

Could do it with an old fashioned perambulator. This one is similar to the one my mother had and gave to my sister:

http://www.cadillacqld.com/images/cadillacpram.jpg

You can easily fit a three or four year old child plus a couple bags of groceries into the one our family has. Or two three year olds at the same time. A seven year old child would pretty much fill it up, would have to be positioned with legs bent but it would be do-able.

Judging from reactions on the street when my nephews were babies, I'd say people would have noticed such a pram. I'm not sure why they went out of fashion, they were roomy, comfortable, easy to push and could carry everything needed for most expeditions with a baby or toddler.

My sister got one of those modern things with tiny wheels and I refused to use it after one try. Difficult to push, fussy about curbs or even cracks in the sidewalk and thoroughly unsatisfactory to use.

 

[BeanE]

I am really confused as to why there is a thread speculating on this, when it hasn't been reported that TH used a stroller. Am I wrong in thinking that it's just as relevant as speculating as to whether or not TH removed Kyron with a hot air balloon parked on the roof of the school? After all, it would be really easy to lure a little boy with the promise of a balloon ride, and no one at the school would think of looking on the roof for a balloon, would they?

I know that my "balloon theory" is ridiculous, but I did so to make a point. How many more threads will there be where people are guessing about something that's not even proven to have occurred? And even more importantly, are these kinds of threads helpful to Kyron in the long run? And if so, how?

Fact based speculation is what WS is all about. We gather the known info from credible sources, and then we build theories and hash them out.

The known info in this instance from MSM is that Terri had the baby at the school, as reported by Kaine. From that people, were speculating in another thread, based on what I certainly saw as a reasonable premise, that Terri may have had a stroller for the baby at the school.

People have also speculated similarly regarding a container, based on the known fact that Kyron's project was taken to the school and had to be taken home, with what I see as a reasonable premise, that a container may have been used for ease of carrying the project and/or to protect it from damage.

Both the stroller and the container are things that would not be out of place or unexpected in these scenarios. What makes a balloon theory ridiculous (your word) is that it would be far out of place, unexpected, with no logical reason for a balloon to be there.

I thought the discussion I happened across earlier today in the other thread about a stroller was worthy of exploration. Obviously, others did too - they were already discussing it, and a quick search brought up pages and pages of posts about a stroller. It was off-topic in the thread I happened across it, and so I decided to create a thread so the people who'd shown an interest over the weeks, as well as myself, could explore it further.

Are threads for fact based speculation helpful to Kyron? Is developing theories and analyzing the information we have available in these cases helpful to victims? Well, I don't know for sure, but I have to say yes, because I know that, specifically from information developed and analyzed here, many tips are sent in to LE, and I know that some of those tips have helped LE in investigating cases, and I believe that those investigations were helpful to those victims.

Perhaps not though. Perhaps what we do on WS are just futile exercises, with no benefit to victims. I don't think so, but it could be.

Obviously, this was important enough to you to come out of lurkdom to post your thoughts and ask your questions about it. So I wanted to be sure to respond. I don't have a whole lot of answers to anything any more , so I doubt my response has been helpful to you, but I hope in some way it might have been.

Thanks for your feedback, marigold.

 

[bessie]

IF she had been caught leaving with a living Kyron, so what? She was his caretaker. There's no "caught" to it. She was responsible for him, so had she been seen leaving with him, it wouldn't have raised any alarm. Had she known that she'd been seen leaving with him, she might have dropped the plan that day and done it some other time. Perhaps we'd been hearing that a little boy went missing while playing in the woods off of Sheltered Nook this past summer instead of hearing of a little boy missing from a school.

But leaving a busy school with a dead body is entirely a different matter. Being caught with a dead body brings the police immediately to your presence.

And eta: We really don't know if she was seen leaving with Kyron or not. We don't know what LE know.

What am I missing here? Does no one else see how incriminating it would be for an eyewitness to state that he saw Kyron leaving the school with Terri?

 

[BeanE]

What am I missing here? Does no one else see how incriminating it would be for an eyewitness to state that he saw Kyron leaving the school with Terri?

I see it. Others see it too.

 

[bessie]

Thank you, Bean E. Sheesh...thought I was losing it for a moment there.

 

[Really]

The fact is that Terri had the baby and Kyron that morning at the science fair. We have heard that she was the last person seen with Kyron. We have NOT heard that Kyron was seen leaving. We have NOT heard whther Terri was seen leaving. If the baby was with Terri, it would be completely logical for her to be in a stroller. It is a fact that there ARE strollers big enough to accomodate Kyron. People wandering about would think nothing of a 'baby' walking next to this stroller that may have appeared to be full of blankets, etc....The only other possibility is that Terri just walked out with Kyron, no biggie like others have posted. This is a possible solution to the 'nobody saw Kyron leave with Terri' problem.

Was there another adult in the truck of the school parking lot? Was there an adult who took baby K out the side door prior to Kyron being stashed in the stroller & rolled out?? Another possible scenerio so that it appears that Terri's rolling a covered up babyK in the stroller and not calling attention to the fact that she's walking beside her. 2nd adult helps quickly put Kyron in truck.

I still don't get the 'why', which is killing me. I can't see what the end result of all this elaborate planning would be and how others have been conviced to go along with this plan. To kill a child?? To take him away from his parents?? For money?? I can see one crazy person doing this but I cannot fathom another going along with this plan....although, crazier things have happened. It does appear that Terri has some personal issues based on her behaviour...then again, who doesn't??

 

[Donjeta]

This looks a lot like the one we have and fwiw my daughter who weighs about the same as Kyron's stats but is a bit shorter and my toddler who is about the same age as baby K fit in together some months ago. Not comfortably and not safely but she climbed in with dear brother and they managed to fit there together with the seat folded back.
It would be more difficult with a dead or unconscious child but I don't think Kyron's size would be a problem with a sturdy stroller, not one of those light ones. There is a thin dark fabric in the top part that you can pull in front of the child to shield the sleeping child from the insects or the light and that would also shield an unconscious child from the gaze of curious onlookers looking from a distance but it's seethrough enough not to fool people who see it from up close and personal.

With that sort of setup it would be doable if nobody is close IMO. The presence of the toddler presents a problem if anybody who knew her saw her leave with the fabric pulled over an apparent sleeping child but her toddler walks next to her or is carried by her, because no one I know would pull the fabric back down to cover the stroller after removing the baby. But maybe she could have taken the baby back to the truck first and returned surreptitiously for the stroller later, and with some luck and care the same persons wouldn't observe her leaving twice, with and without a stroller, and if different persons saw her her lawyer could use the discrepancies in their accounts to sow reasonable doubt on the accuracy of their eyewitness statements. "Witness A says that Terri left with the baby in a stroller but that obviously can't be true because Witness B and C say she left with the baby on her hip. Witness A can't be trusted."

I still think he left with his own two feet. Less trouble, less noise than subduing a struggling child.

 

[Donjeta]

What am I missing here? Does no one else see how incriminating it would be for an eyewitness to state that he saw Kyron leaving the school with Terri?

Not to speak for other posters but I took pufnstuf to mean that while it would be incriminating now that Kyron is missing to have an eyewitness come forward saying Terri left with him, but on Friday June 4th, before Kyron was reported missing, if Terri happened to see anybody on her way out who might have seen her, she could have just abandoned the plan if Kyron was well and walked with his own two feet. She could have just called it off and returned Kyron to school later that day inventing some excuse why they had to leave for a while, and it would not have caused any alarm in anybody unless she lied really badly.

Whereas, if she exited the school with a dead or unconscious child wrapped in a bundle and noticed that she was seen she had already passed the point of no return. She wouldn't have had the option of calling the plan off and she could count on it that the witness would either call the police immediately or tell them about his/her suspicious sighting after Kyron was reported missing, in effect damning her.

Leaving the school with a healthy child leaves more options in case something obviously goes wrong outside the school and she meets a parent she knows out in the parking lot or somebody comes back for something they forgot, or a child comes in very tardy.

 

[BeanE]

The fact is that Terri had the baby and Kyron that morning at the science fair. We have heard that she was the last person seen with Kyron. We have NOT heard that Kyron was seen leaving. We have NOT heard whther Terri was seen leaving.

BBM. I keep seeing this posted, that nobody saw Terri leaving. But we do indeed have a MSM news article of someone seeing Terri leave the building, without Kyron.

T says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.

This link is to one of our Today's News threads where I originally posted the article. It's in the Reference Forum.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5272107&postcount=20"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Kyron Horman - Portland, Oregon MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS[/ame]


Regarding Kyron, I've referred to this LE statement a few times in the past few days, and just wanted to post the quote and link again for reference purposes:

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/11/oregon.missing.boy/index.html?section=cnn_latest

 

[TGIRecovered]

My kids are two years apart. When they were little , the older one still needed help in a public restroom to sit on the big toilet without falling in or holding on with thier hands (ewwww!). I taught my little one to wrap her arms around my leg whlie she stood next to me, so that she would not be touching ditry things or trying to sit on the floor while I helped the older one balance on the toilet, wipe, pull up and fasten pants, etc. The little one felt secure hugging mommy's leg and the older one had my almost undivided attention, so they were both happy with the routine most of the time! Something like this could have worked for TH while she tended to Kyron.

If it were me, I would have simply joked with Kyron that he was far to big to fit in sister's stroller. Boyish nature would then take over with Kyron climbing in to prove me wrong. Easy-peasy! Make it a game..."Oh, look how sneaky you are! If I covered you with the blanket, I'll bet we could sneak out to the truck and back without getting caught! Wanna try? Ok, be very still and quiet, like you are hiding from the bad guys...you could be a spy!"

Drugs, strangling, smothering or chloroform could be used after he was already in the stroller, but it would be easier to open the truck passenger doors, so that view is obstructed from both sides, let him quickly climb in to help baby K into her carseat. Shut the doors, collapse stroller, stash it in the rear bed. After you are inside with the doors closed, tell Kyron you'll drop him in front of the school entrance so he won't have to walk back without his coat. Oops! something on your face- lean over here Kyron, I'll wipe it off--chloroform time!

What puzzles me about drugging him in the school- what drug would knock him out immediately without having to inject it? Chloroform would be too stinky to use inside the school.

 

[1SweetNov]

This thread got me to thinking. Thinking about that project and how obvious it was done by an adult. The perfection of it. This was to be a big day, wasn't it? With his exhibit, the afternoon performance. Bear with me, what if Kyron wet his pants or worse. It would 'ruin' the perfect day, wouldn't it? Could she have hurried him into an adult b/room and flat out lost it? If the baby was sleeping, she could have folded/wrapped Kyron w/ a comforter on the diagnonal and placed the sleeping baby on top of him, wheeling the stroller, even tilted on the back two wheels, out of the school. She would be filled with fear, adrenalin, and strength. Ok, feel free to rip my thoughts apart - PLEASE!

 

[Bipolar Express]

Did she infact, have baby K with her? Is there a thread somewhere that lists all the FACTS of the case together? I think that would be helpful....

 

[pufnstuf]

What am I missing here? Does no one else see how incriminating it would be for an eyewitness to state that he saw Kyron leaving the school with Terri?

You're missing the original statement, that Terri wouldn't have taken a chance of leaving Skyline with a body, because, had she been caught with a body on the school grounds, the police would have been summoned immediately.

Instead, she took the chance of leaving with Kyron ALIVE. If she felt that she had been seen with him, she'd probably have called her plans off until another day. If she felt that she had not been seen with him, she'd go through with the plan, which is what she did.

Simple logic that a parent leaving with a dead body is a huge risk, while a parent leaving with a living child, though it's risky, is nowhere nearly as risky as trying to sneak a body out.

 

[pufnstuf]

BBM. I keep seeing this posted, that nobody saw Terri leaving. But we do indeed have a MSM news article of someone seeing Terri leave the building, without Kyron.

T says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.

This link is to one of our Today's News threads where I originally posted the article. It's in the Reference Forum.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Kyron Horman - Portland, Oregon MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS


Regarding Kyron, I've referred to this LE statement a few times in the past few days, and just wanted to post the quote and link again for reference purposes:

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/11/oregon.missing.boy/index.html?section=cnn_latest

When did Staton make that statement?

 

[gardeness]

I haven't read this entire thread, so don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but...rhetorical question--do you know how hard it is to steer a stroller with a 5-year old in it? It's pretty difficult--I just can't imagine nonchalantly steering a 7-year old out of school in a stroller...