GUILTY MA - Colleen Ritzer, 24, brutally murdered, Danvers, 22 Oct 2013 #1

[SmoothOperator]

 

[SmoothOperator]

 

[SmoothOperator]

The girl who entered the bathroom and immediately exited probably saw only the naked behind of an unknown person and nothing more of that person or the room. Immediately realized it is a guy, and didn't mean to intrude. I find this quite understandable. Would have done the same. Wouldn't you? Walking in on a naked man who seems to be changing clothes, would you simply continue entering?

Nope, and is exactly my point..a naked man in the student's girl's restroom would strike immediate alarms..hence my entire point.. My point is not questioning would walking in on a naked male in the highschool girls bathroom be no cause for alarm..its the exact opposite, cause for alarm! Jmo.

Immediate instinct of alarm..reaction to immediately turn around and get the hell out of there..alarm bells of something not right, here..instinctive alarm bells many times leading into actions that follow sounding an alarm to alert others who are in a position to check out the situation that you've rightfully just fled..

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**

 

[liljim]

could you just link those pages instead of embedding the images?

i think some high school age girls would react as you would hope, but i think there are plenty that would just be shocked but not necessarily think they walked in on anything nefarious but instead think they just caught two kids fooling around etc, something relatively innocent, and just be embarrassed and get out of there.

 

[Elainera]

Nope, and is exactly my point..a naked man in the student's girl's restroom would strike immediate alarms..hence my entire point.. My point is not questioning would walking in on a naked male in the highschool girls bathroom be no cause for alarm..its the exact opposite, cause for alarm! Jmo.

Immediate instinct of alarm..reaction to immediately turn around and get the hell out of there..alarm bells of something not right, here..instinctive alarm bells many times leading into actions that follow sounding an alarm to alert others who are in a position to check out the situation that you've rightfully just fled..

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**

Oh I see now what you mean. I didn't get that at first.

Mmh. Maybe she was too embarrassed?

 

[al66pine]

Smooth Operator Post 481-- Thanks for bringing us the Affidavit for Search Warrant of Philip's home.

Per Affidavit p2, para 14, young woman entered restroom, saw 'a butt.'

For posters asking - why did she enter bathroom, then turn around and leave without alerting someone to the restroom activity, here are some possibilities:

1. She said she entered restroom to attempt to call her father.
(a) No cells are permitted at school and she did not want to get caught using her cell, by anyone, esp. poss a teacher, in bathroom.
(b) she planned to call someone, perhaps other than her father. She did not want to be overheard by anyone saying whatever she planned to say on that intended call, so left to find another place w. privacy.

2. She entered restroom for usu purposes, saw 'a butt' she realized was male, but decided that the male - and another person, maybe female, maybe male - were engaged in sexual activity, and she did not want to intrude or interrupt. Maybe thought male was even doing this by himself.

Peeps, remember a short while back, (GA?) high school 'dare' by a female re performing oral sex on male student in the cafeteria at lunch break, while being recorded by cell phones, FCOL.

IMO, some students' mindset would be - okay, they're 'getting busy' in that stall, so I'll just leave and use restroom down the hall.

3. She entered restroom to smoke a ciggy or to do something prohibited, so left.

4. She entered restroom for usu purposes and seeing 'a butt' and recognizing it as male, she left because she did not want to use restroom w a male there, esp after reg classroom hours.

5. She entered restroom for usu purposes, but seeing 'a butt' - male or female - left for other restroom because she has 'bashful bladder.' :blushing:

Not saying any one of these is why she left, just possibilities, and undoubtedly there are more.

 

[ami]

If he planned to do this (and I believe he did), how would he know his teacher would ask him to stay after class and that she would enter an accessible bathroom versus a staff washroom that can be locked? Was he planning to kill her inside the classroom? What about the other girl who was also getting extra help? Did he plan on killing her too? Did he know she would be there getting extra help?

Maybe he was just planning to find a way to kill her, and the details sort of emerged as he went. Because in the timeline, he exited the classroom after her, followed her --- and she happened to enter the bathroom. He could as easily have followed her to the parking lot, another empty classroom, pushed his way into the faculty bathroom as soon as she opened the door to it, etc.

Isn't it weird that he didn't do anything to wedge the bathroom door closed or keep anyone from entering while he killed her? He had no way of knowing whether another teacher or student would walk in while he was killing her!

And isn't it also crazy that he re-entered that bathroom 9 minutes (wasn't it?) after he killed her, wheeling a huge recycling bin? How did he know that in the meantime, no other girl/woman had entered the bathroom and sounded an alarm? He already knew that he was seen in the bathroom by someone - instead of running away, he STILL came back 9 minutes later, and risked getting caught loading a dead teacher into a recycling bin!

So my thought is that he was prepared to take huge risks that day. And perhaps the fact that she walked into the restroom just chose the spot for him by chance.

I also think that he took her out of the bathroom because he had a fantasy of dumping her and staging her. Why else would he come back for her body once he'd gotten away from the crime scene (bathroom) without getting caught? I guess he could have thought he was buying a little time, but he was willing to risk being apprehended as he trotted all over the school wheeling stuff into elevators and re-entering the scene of the crime, already knowing he was spotted at least once?

Nope, and is exactly my point..a naked man in the student's girl's restroom would strike immediate alarms..hence my entire point.. My point is not questioning would walking in on a naked male in the highschool girls bathroom be no cause for alarm..its the exact opposite, cause for alarm! Jmo.

Immediate instinct of alarm..reaction to immediately turn around and get the hell out of there..alarm bells of something not right, here..instinctive alarm bells many times leading into actions that follow sounding an alarm to alert others who are in a position to check out the situation that you've rightfully just fled..

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**

I hate to say this, but no, I don't see anything weird about this girl's actions at all.

Seeing a naked guy's butt and pile of clothes in the girls bathroom (but no screams for help) would probably ordinarily mean either someone was changing clothes and that was really embarrassing to have accidentally walked in on, and should be forgotten immediately, OR that a guy and his girlfriend were having risky afterschool sex - and most teenagers I know would immediately back out of the situation in embarrassment. Like "Yikes! sorry" or "Eww, I'm going to forget I saw that..." or even, "Omg, omg, gross.." and then repeatedly thinking about it and processing it after they got home, before deciding to tell someone.

If there had been screaming? yes, I can see someone immediately sounding an alarm. But a quiet bathroom and a naked guy's butt? Maybe not. And teenagers do have those "alarm bells" in their head, but perhaps don't trust them as much with their peers, on average, as an adult might. Perhaps the idea that accidentally making a huge deal of a sports player who was changing for afternoon soccer practice in an empty bathroom (even the girls bathroom - hey, maybe the guys' bathroom was being cleaned, or his friends jokingly locked him out) -- far outweighed "maybe a serious crime is happening" in the average teenager's head. After all, it's not like they were living in a dangerous place where that would be forefront in their minds.

Also, it's a sad fact that a lot of highschoolers are already having sex or doing sex acts with each other, if you can believe the rumors even within the school itself.

Finally though, and something I've wondered from the first time I read of this poor girl's close call - the teacher's throat was slit, and that should have produced a lot of blood. Depending on the layout of the bathroom, it's possible this poor girl, in her brief second of unexpected vision, glimpsed a naked butt AND something else she couldn't bring her mind to accept. Maybe a splash of blood, or an odd smell. And I think she would be completely forgiven for immediately blocking any further thought of that, or creating a quick mental story that would make what she saw potentially innocent or explainable to herself, so she didn't have to acknowledge anything else. This would IMO be completely understandable.

 

[Foxfire]

I recall in previous msm articles that investigators stated that students had witnessed things that they did not comprehend, or understand the significance of what they saw; As few details emerged about the killing of a Massachusetts teacher allegedly by one of her students, classmates struggled to make sense of their loss — and understand why it happened.

 

[gxm]

The girl who entered the bathroom and immediately exited probably saw only the naked behind of an unknown person and nothing more of that person or the room. Immediately realized it is a guy, and didn't mean to intrude. I find this quite understandable. Would have done the same. Wouldn't you? Walking in on a naked man who seems to be changing clothes, would you simply continue entering?

I would be wondering what a half dressed guy was doing in the girls bathroom and I would probably try to find someone in authority to complain about it. I agree with Smooth Operator, it just seems odd to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the young woman left and was not injured but I also think it's odd to see something like that and not bring it to a teacher's or principal's attention.

Also, IMO, I would have no problem entering the ladies room and using the facilities if another woman was changing. As women, we are quite accustomed to seeing other women change clothing in front of us and, for me, I would have barely paid attention to it and just walked on by. So it seems likely to me that the young woman instinctively sensed danger. JMO. OMO. MOO.

 

[matou]

I wonder what Chism was saying when he was talking to himself in class? Was Ms. Ritzer in class when he was talking to himself or did he make sure to only mutter things so that he wouldn't be understood?

 

[matou]

Isn't it weird that he didn't do anything to wedge the bathroom door closed or keep anyone from entering while he killed her? He had no way of knowing whether another teacher or student would walk in while he was killing her!

And isn't it also crazy that he re-entered that bathroom 9 minutes (wasn't it?) after he killed her, wheeling a huge recycling bin? How did he know that in the meantime, no other girl/woman had entered the bathroom and sounded an alarm? He already knew that he was seen in the bathroom by someone - instead of running away, he STILL came back 9 minutes later, and risked getting caught loading a dead teacher into a recycling bin!

So my thought is that he was prepared to take huge risks that day. And perhaps the fact that she walked into the restroom just chose the spot for him by chance.

I also think that he took her out of the bathroom because he had a fantasy of dumping her and staging her. Why else would he come back for her body once he'd gotten away from the crime scene (bathroom) without getting caught? I guess he could have thought he was buying a little time, but he was willing to risk being apprehended as he trotted all over the school wheeling stuff into elevators and re-entering the scene of the crime, already knowing he was spotted at least once?

ITA agree with all of these thoughts. It's as is he didn't care if he got caught once he began the process of murdering his teacher. Anyone could have entered and one student did, after Ritzer was already dead. The staging is what I think he wanted out of this whole disgusting thing. This goes beyond anger over loss of control in his life, IMO.

 

[ami]

I would be wondering what a half dressed guy was doing in the girls bathroom and I would probably try to find someone in authority to complain about it. I agree with Smooth Operator, it just seems odd to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the young woman left and was not injured but I also think it's odd to see something like that and not bring it to a teacher's or principal's attention.

Also, IMO, I would have no problem entering the ladies room and using the facilities if another woman was changing. As women, we are quite accustomed to seeing other women change clothing in front of us and, for me, I would have barely paid attention to it and just walked on by. So it seems likely to me that the young woman instinctively sensed danger. JMO. OMO. MOO.

You're a grown woman with an interest in and knowledge of crime, who is also presumably used to her body and with years/decades of experience in seeing other women who are also used to their own bodies - this was a young girl who walked in on a naked person unexpectedly in a high school bathroom!

I work with teenagers and am the mother of two myself - her behavior is not odd in the least. Young teen girls aren't accustomed to seeing others buck naked in front them, necessarily, and certainly not out in the open of a school bathroom! But neither would your average teen immediately run to report a naked butt sighting to the principal. You're describing grown experienced woman instincts and you cannot apply those to children in a completely different stage of their mental, emotional and physical development.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I recall in previous msm articles that investigators stated that students had witnessed things that they did not comprehend, or understand the significance of what they saw; As few details emerged about the killing of a Massachusetts teacher allegedly by one of her students, classmates struggled to make sense of their loss — and understand why it happened.

As a youth, I would be one that would probably leave if I saw a naked person in the bathroom. I would be embarrassed and thrown off by it. I really doubt it's common to see someone stripped down underwear and all in the school bathroom. Wouldn't a person do that in a stall, where they had privacy? Although odd to see, it wouldn't cause me to run and tell someone just because I witnessed what I thought was someone changing their cloths.

Crime very rarely occurs on school grounds. Apparently, there was nothing that she saw that indicated foul play. She saw a "naked butt and someone changing their clothes."

Thank goodness she left. This poor girl is probably going through a rough time knowing what she walked in on and coming so close to harm herself.

I wonder if he even realized someone opened the door?

eta: Thanks Ami! You said it much better than I. I was writing when you posted.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I can't help but think, what he would have done if he was older and had access to a vehicle. A younger perp like this is limited on what they can do, because they lack transportation. I guess he could have taken her car, but did he even know what car was hers or he had no knowledge of how to drive and didn't think of that as a option.

His actions are so bizarre. I can't even begin to wrap my brain around why he took all that extra time to remove her from the building and risk getting caught. Did he simply not care if he got caught and this was like a "I'll show you all".

There is nothing that "causes" this type to do what they do. IMO, their brains are wired that way. He would have killed eventually anyway, regardless of the fact that he moved, started at a new school and his parents are divorcing or anything else that may be brought up. Life is most certainly not free of stressful situations or disappointments. The move and divorce "may have" contributed to him committing the crime at a younger age. It's not a reason or excuse for his behavior. Just because someone has things happen in their life, we all do, it should have no bearing on the sentence they receive. The sentence should be based on the horrific circumstances of the crime and the probability that this **** is cable of such actions and if released is most certainly capable of repeating these actions in the future. I don't believe that these types can be "rewired" to have empathy for others.

 

[danzn16]

Were there any other indications this kid could be violent? Any mental illness?


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[BeginnersLuck]

Were there any other indications this kid could be violent? Any mental illness?


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So far we have heard nothing about mental illness or violent tendencies. Everyone describes him as quiet and nice.

 

[Foxfire]

As a youth, I would be one that would probably leave if I saw a naked person in the bathroom. I would be embarrassed and thrown off by it. I really doubt it's common to see someone stripped down underwear and all in the school bathroom. Wouldn't a person do that in a stall, where they had privacy? Although odd to see, it wouldn't cause me to run and tell someone just because I witnessed what I thought was someone changing their cloths.

Crime very rarely occurs on school grounds. Apparently, there was nothing that she saw that indicated foul play. She saw a "naked butt and someone changing their clothes."

Thank goodness she left. This poor girl is probably going through a rough time knowing what she walked in on and coming so close to harm herself.

I wonder if he even realized someone opened the door?

eta: Thanks Ami! You said it much better than I. I was writing when you posted.

RE: Crime very rarely occurs on school grounds.

Have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. Crime happens on school grounds, hence; the reason for security cameras & guards, and metal detectors in some cases. Just not this horrific in the majority of cases, and definitely not with this much ms media coverage...

 

[liljim]

I recall in previous msm articles that investigators stated that students had witnessed things that they did not comprehend, or understand the significance of what they saw; As few details emerged about the killing of a Massachusetts teacher allegedly by one of her students, classmates struggled to make sense of their loss — and understand why it happened.

hmmm i just take that to mean that they are shocked and trying to come to terms with her killing.

 

[al66pine]

I wonder if his rage or other emotion about something started forming in TN.

Is it possible
--- after his summer move from TN to MA, esp after school started that his idea about killing someone - a female based on his sexual-staging, but nobody in particular - took shape?

--- at home and maybe from school sources, he assembled his kill kit?

--- all or part of his kit, esp bulky multiple changes of clothing could have been stored in his locker,

--- he carried (all or part of) kit to school daily?

--- he waited for
--- right opportunity with any victim?
--- any opportunity w the right victim?
--- right opportunity w the 'right' victim?

--- he selected Ms Ritzer perhaps based on
--- her personal characteristics, looks, personality?
--- math being last class of school day?
--- the combination?

--- he 'helped' the right opportunity emerge by his actions in class, doodling, etc?

The kill-kit speaks to premeditation, but I wonder about victim selection.

Just some possibilities.

 

[Zinn]

As far as I can tell from the affidavit, the female student who entered the bathroom at 3:06 did not identify the butt as male or female. I also don't see a reference to her being a freshman student, as some have mentioned. If I'm interpreting it correctly, it says a female student appears on surveillance video at 3:06, entering and quickly exiting the bathroom. It says the identity of the female student is clear, but it does not say whether she contacted police or school officials or whether they contacted her after viewing the surveillance footage. It says she told LE she was entering to make a call to her father (this could explain why she left if the room was unexpectedly occupied). She then walked away (did not run away) after exiting, according to the footage. She said she observed a person's butt. She could discern the person was standing and leaning over. She observed clothing on the floor and assumed the person was changing clothes. LE asked if the butt was more light skinned or dark skinned and she said more dark skinned. The affidavit doesn't mention where in the bathroom the person was observed. It also doesn't mention whether PC noticed someone had entered.

Because only a minute elapsed between the time the teacher entered the bathroom and the time PC entered the bathroom, I wonder if perhaps he attacked her when she was inside a bathroom stall. If so, perhaps the witness truly only saw a butt protruding from a stall and no other identifying characteristics, particularly if the stalls are perpendicular to the entrance of the bathroom (I have no idea). Whether she assumed the butt was male or female, I would imagine most teenagers would be embarrassed when walking in on someone in that position. And even if she was not embarrassed, she may have left to find another private place to make a call.

All of the above is just my opinion.