GUILTY MA - Colleen Ritzer, 24, brutally murdered, Danvers, 22 Oct 2013 #1

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  • #601
http://www.news.com.au/world/boy-denies-raping-killing-his-teacher/story-fndir2ev-1226776485402
Police haven't released a motive for Ritzer's killing. Assistant District Attorney Kate MacDougall said nothing during the investigation has pointed to mental health issues. Chism's lawyer, Denise Regan, said she would raise the issue of mental competency "if and when" she feels it's appropriate.

It's probably not going to be raised, the defense attorney is just keeping the door open if it looks viable. What's really going on right now is behind the scenes negotiating. This is not likely to go to trial - he has no viable defense, and a jury is not likely to give him a more lenient sentence, given the crimes he committed.
 
  • #602
I don't think there will be any victim blaming either. The death penalty wouldn't apply regardless because he's a minor.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone plead guilty right off the bat in a murder case. If they allowed him to do this, I'm afraid it would later be appealed for one reason or another.

Good point. Due to PC's age, I doubt a judge would allow him to enter a guilty plea at this point. The judge will want to be satisfied that any mental health evaluations are completed and reviewed by everyone. Need to be satisfied that PC is competent to enter a guilty plea. Otherwise, this will certainly be overturned later and we would be back to square one.

Also, keep in mind, the lawyers here, the prosecutor and public defenders, are likely all salaried employees. They dont make any more or less whether this case drags on or not.
 
  • #603
This article offers a good account of what occured in court yesterday and an overview of the reasons why when things appear cut and dry to the public, some things just take time to sort out. For instance, Philip is 14, a juvenile:

"... much of yesterday’s hearing was given over to a procedural debate over the proper way to handle the two “youthful offender” indictments.

Youthful offender cases are typically handled in Juvenile Court. But Judge Howard Whitehead was designated by court administrators to handle all three charges yesterday, acting temporarily as a juvenile court judge.

While state law requires that a defendant who is 14 or older be tried for murder in the Superior Court, the statute does not address the lesser charges.

MacDougall argued that the three charges should be tried together, as the robbery and rape were “part and parcel” of the slaying."

*

"But Chism’s attorney, Denise Regan, said she will object to that. “They’re youthful offender indictments, and he’s 14 years old, and he’s entitled to all of the rights and benefits that go to a juvenile,” Regan argued."

From:

Chism pleads not guilty
BY JULIE MANGANIS 12/05/2013 3:30 AM
The Salem News


http://m.salemnews.com/TSN/db_325372/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=1a7ib3D6
 
  • #604
There really are a lot of factors that have a impact on the amount of time it takes from arrest to a conviction. It's only been six weeks, which is very little time to get all the paperwork in order, especially on a murder case.

Each attorney already has their own caseload to deal with and the courts typically have full calendars. Coordinating dates on everyones calendar can be a additional factor for delays.
 
  • #605
I totally disagree with his atty of course. Of course I do. It almost makes it sounds as if they are lesser crimes somehow; they were all one in the same.....and should be tried in adult court, as such. IMO! Try him as an adult, he made his point clear when he wrote; and left at the scene I HATE YOU ALL. That about sums it up for me....
 
  • #606
I totally disagree with his atty of course. Of course I do. It almost makes it sounds as if they are lesser crimes somehow; they were all one in the same.....and should be tried in adult court, as such. IMO! Try him as an adult, he made his point clear when he wrote; and left at the scene I HATE YOU ALL. That about sums it up for me....

But that's not how the law is written, nor how was he indicted. So yes, there has to be a hearing to determine procedure, because as it stands from the indictment, he has some charges in adult court, and others to be tried in juvenile court. Likely, they will be bound over to adult court, given that we all know they arose from the same actions. However, his attorneys wouldn't be providing effective assistance of counsel if they didn't advocate for him to be tried as a juvenile on those charges. It's not really about agreeing or disagreeing here - it's about your constitutional rights.

A lot of people seem to be upset by the normal, procedural goings on in this case. Trust me, he will very likely plead in the end, and none of these things are delay tactics. These things are all normal, constitutionally-mandated procedures of our justice system that happen every day. He's not going to "get off," nor will he likely get a sweet deal from the prosecutors. This is all par for the course, and there's no need to get angry or upset. There will be justice for Colleen, this is just the set up for it all.
 
  • #607
They will start negotiating to try to come to a plea agreement most likely. There is no question he committed the crimes. The defense will probably try to make an arguement of some sort of mental deficiency, but that is a pretty high standard to meet. We certainly don't know all the facts, but I don't recall there being any mental health issues with PC in his past. But the prosecution would probably like to avoid a trial and would maybe offer a term of years instead of life. A trial date will be set and I would anticipate a plea agreement announced just short of the trial. I would be very surprised if this case goes to trial.

As brutal as this crime was I cant see any DA accepting a plea of anything less than LWOP so there will be no deal I don't think. Imo, this case will go to trial and he will take his chances with a jury.

From the information we have read thus far the DA has no reason to plea. It seems they have an insurmountable amount of evidence against this teen.

Also, imo, he will not be declared MI. Not by judicial standards anyway. There was way too much plotting and planning and even getting rid of her body shows he knew what he did was wrong.

Imo, he is a sexual deviant psychopath just like Joseph E Duncan was at an early age. PC carried out his sadistic fantasies on a completely innocent victim. I would imagine in his background it will be uncovered he had deep seeded hatred for his mother. It will be interesting to see if Colleen and his mother favor each other.

This hideous crime is far beyond the norm even for murderers. It was not only meant to be sexually demeaning to the victim and painful but also sadistic and torturous as well. Imo, he is probably a fledgling psychopath with sadistic sexual tendencies and is incurable just like JED was at that age.

The DA does not need to plea nor does he have any reason to do so. The DA needs to get this teen locked up for the maximum time allowable (LWOP) to protect society from HIM.
 
  • #608
  • #609
I usually feel sympathetic towards 14 yr old suspects being tried as adults. Not in this case though. I hope this 'kid' never sees freedom or the light of day again. This was a despicable pointless tragic crime.
 
  • #610
Oceanblueeyes, while I agree that this crime certainly deserves a life sentence and the evidence is rock solid, the fact remains that PC is only 14 years old. That causes a lot of issues for the prosecution, as we are already seeing. The DA does not want to get a sentence of LWOP and then years later have that sentence thrown out. So there is some incentive to negotiate. Also, I am sure everyone would like to avoid the pain of a trial. The DA will have to wait until a full mental evaluation is done in order to know how to proceed. I doubt that there will be any mental incapacity found here. PC may be indeed have an anti-social personality disorder, but that is not a mental illness insofar as legal capacity is concerned. Such a diagnosis will not only not help PC, but may actually help to keep him behind bars longer, since there really is not "cure" for it.
 
  • #611
Oceanblueeyes, while I agree that this crime certainly deserves a life sentence and the evidence is rock solid, the fact remains that PC is only 14 years old. That causes a lot of issues for the prosecution, as we are already seeing. The DA does not want to get a sentence of LWOP and then years later have that sentence thrown out. So there is some incentive to negotiate. Also, I am sure everyone would like to avoid the pain of a trial. The DA will have to wait until a full mental evaluation is done in order to know how to proceed. I doubt that there will be any mental incapacity found here. PC may be indeed have an anti-social personality disorder, but that is not a mental illness insofar as legal capacity is concerned. Such a diagnosis will not only not help PC, but may actually help to keep him behind bars longer, since there really is not "cure" for it.

I fully understand what you are saying but sometimes the easiest path is not the correct one. Has Colleen's family said they do not want this to go to trial? Sometimes the message sent is just as important as the conviction/sentence. I doubt if a plea is struck it would result in LWOP. This is a must in this particular case. Society must be protected from these kind of murderers and the only way to make sure of that is to see he is locked away in prison the rest of his natural life.

What amazes me about families of murdered victims is how strong most of them are. Yes, they know a trial will be extremely painful for them, but so many seem willing to face it head on in a trial. They seem to look at pleas with a jaundice eye as if it is giving control to the very one that took their loved one's life.

We have discussed some very horrible murders here, and unfortunately, quite a few through the years, were done by teens PCs age, and even younger. Most of the them opted for a trial when being tried as an adult.

PC, being 14 years old doesn't sway me that he should be given a deal, and I don't think it will sway the family of Colleen or the DA either. But we will see.

imo
 
  • #612
This article offers a good account of what occured in court yesterday and an overview of the reasons why when things appear cut and dry to the public, some things just take time to sort out. For instance, Philip is 14, a juvenile:

"... much of yesterday’s hearing was given over to a procedural debate over the proper way to handle the two “youthful offender” indictments.

Youthful offender cases are typically handled in Juvenile Court. But Judge Howard Whitehead was designated by court administrators to handle all three charges yesterday, acting temporarily as a juvenile court judge.

While state law requires that a defendant who is 14 or older be tried for murder in the Superior Court, the statute does not address the lesser charges.

MacDougall argued that the three charges should be tried together, as the robbery and rape were “part and parcel” of the slaying."

*

"But Chism’s attorney, Denise Regan, said she will object to that. “They’re youthful offender indictments, and he’s 14 years old, and he’s entitled to all of the rights and benefits that go to a juvenile,” Regan argued."

From:

Chism pleads not guilty
BY JULIE MANGANIS 12/05/2013 3:30 AM
The Salem News


http://m.salemnews.com/TSN/db_325372/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=1a7ib3D6

I find the MA juvenile law rather puzzling. Rape is a violent crime and in this case it was so violent that it boggles the mind of most, imo. Robbery is also a violent crime.

So they can try him as an adult on the murder charges yet the other two violent crimes are to be tried in juvenile court? That makes no commonsense to me.

Imo, the juvenile justice system was never intended for violent offenders such as CP. He is in a league not often seen.......thank goodness.

When the juvenile justice system was established it was to punish those who had committed petty crimes who had a good chance of being rehabilitated. Maybe this case will bring about change that is needed or an exception to the rule when dealing with violent teen/minor offenders when they have committed multiple violent crimes.

More and more we are seeing minors who are committing horrific adult like crimes including premeditated murders. Somehow these type of offenders must be excluded from the juvenile system and dealt with differently because they are different than most incarcerated juveniles who are not there for aggravated rapes or armed robberies.

I believe in the end, even if the Judge does seek advice from the higher courts, all three counts will be tried in adult court where they need to be.

I have read books about serial killers and a lot of them started their violent criminal activity in their teens. They scoffed that the juvenile system was a farce and gave them a slap on the hand. They laughed when they said they didn't even stay in juvey very long even when they had already murdered someone. They let them out early most times and they went right back to hurting people once out.

At one time I had different feelings about youthful offenders but after years of reading and seeing what some minors are capable of .......I no longer have one ounce of sympathy. I care about the good kids out there that never do something like this. These kind of minors are far from the norm and the only way to protect society from them is to give them the maximum time allowed. Thankfully we don't see things like this happening everyday but minors do murder others in cold and calculated ways ...........way too often.

IMO
 
  • #613
Hopefully, PC attorney won't get her way. I seriously don't see how it's logical or possible to try these crimes separately, when they were all contributing factors in the act of the murder. I didn't word that right, but anyway, it makes no sense to split out the charges in two different courts.
 
  • #614
I think he was enraged that he was failing her class. In my experience as a math teacher, I never had a student who was completely checked out mentally from class whom I did not flunk for almost total lack of math proficiency. I think most nonteachers as well as any teachers who have not worked in both low academic standard and well as high academic standard schools would not understand how deficient in math Chism would have been in comparison to most of the other students at Danvers.

I checked on Chism's previous schools in Tennessee online. As just one indicator (I don't care to discuss the others since it would likely lead to inflammatory political discussions) their test scores are bad, really bad. Having worked in those types of schools I can tell you for a fact that both the academic and behavioral standards are low. The academic content, especially in mathematics, is watered down to the point that the courses have almost no resemblance to their description in the state curriculum guides. By watered down course content, I mean that not only are key parts of the course not taught, but easier topics from earlier levels of math are substituted and what is taught is not approached with proper depth or rigor.

In my school, instead of teaching actual algebra in algebra, most of the teachers were teaching how to manipulate fractions and basic arithmetic for most of the term. This meant they never got to the actual topics of algebra like completing the square, factoring equations, the quadratic equation. Or they only covered some of these topics in a shallow and cursory manner. This meant that most of the algebra II teachers then were teaching algebra i material. Worse, the students still could not do basic arithmetic or manipulate fractions so the algebra ii teachers were still teaching this. Calculus was a complete watered down joke that resembled nothing like any authentic calculus course. This is the math program at schools with low academic standards. Education in these schools is something that George Orwell or Ayn Rand would have imagined and then written in a book people would have read as a piece of fiction.

But the lack of academic rigor does not stop there in these types of schools. There is also a great deal of grade inflation occurring. By this I mean that students are often not required to complete homework for accuracy. Instead they usually receive full credit on their homework for "effort", which does not even mean real effort. If the student simply copies a few homework problems (that can be incomplete and incorrect) on their paper but does not even bother to make "effort" on all the problems, that is considered sufficient as effort and they get a 100. I have seen this over and over. It is standard practice in those types of schools because the administrators want the students passed on not flunked back. Of course, there are exceptional teachers who do not go along with this but they are the exception that proves the rule.

It does not end there. It is not uncommon at these schools for students to be allowed to take the same test over and over until they pass it. This mainly happens in math. I was required to allow students to take tests over and over an unlimited amount of times. This of course meant that some (maybe most) of them had no incentive to study for their test since they just figured that maybe they would get lucky and pass and if they didn't, well, they got a free look at the test and would get as many other tries as they want. Often, the teachers are also required to weight homework heavier than test and quiz grades so that would virtually ensure almost everybody would pass automatically regardless of genuine effort or competence in the subject.

So Philip Chism came from schools like that. Then after years of watered down academics and grade inflation, he suddenly has to hit the ground running academically at a school that had much higher academic standards. Unless you have seen what I have seen, you can't imagine how academically unprepared he would have been. The subject that would have been the most difficult and the most impossible to catch up in would have been math. The real world is not like the movie Stand and Deliver that pretended kids could gain math proficiency in only a year because the math teacher was so great. That was never what Jaime Escalante did and the movie twisted the truth into a terrible lie to make an exciting movie. The truth was far less glamorous. The truth was that Escalante and his principal arranged for the feeder schools and courses for calculus to be beefed up so that a select group of capable students could succeed in his calculus class.

In real life, students like Philip Chism do not catch up in math quickly. They struggle for a long time. As Chism's math teacher, Ms. Ritzer would most definitely have been very aware of how severely deficient he was in math even if she didn't have the experiences to understand why.

Just as one example of this, I was discussing the low standards at our school with a parent once, the parent suddenly exclaimed, "Oh! My nephew used to go here and had all A's without ever doing any work. He was so lazy. Now he is at S.C. (a suburb school out of the county with much higher academic standards and exactly the kind of "good" school I was describing to the parent as a contrast to ours) and he is flunking almost everything except now he is really trying. I mean he is really trying and he just can't pass." I replied, "You've got it."

Currently, there is an epidemic of students who go to college believing they are academically prepared only to find that they place into remedial math or English, which they proceed to flunk repeatedly before dropping out of college. Their prior academic experiences in k-12 left them not only unprepared for real academics but with an unrealistic perception of their competence and abilities.

Philip Chism and his mother would have easily believed that he was much more academically advanced than he really was and may have also had an inflated sense of his intelligence. When he found himself to be behind academically at Danvers he would have been shocked, afraid, and distressed. He might have felt that the world came off its axis. Nobody besides Philip himself, God, and Colleen Ritzer would have understand how seriously deficient he was in mathematics.

She singled him out for staying after school because she understood how severely deficient he was in math. By the first week of school I generally knew which students were struggling. Even a clueless teacher would know by week three. They were several weeks into the school year so she would have known absolutely that he was academically in serious trouble. She was motivated by being a good teacher not by some lascivious intentions. Nobody with any ability to read people could look at her or read her postings and think she was other than a well intentioned and good hearted person.

But Philip could have still felt anger and hatred toward her. It it not uncommon for students and their parents to be angry or enraged at the teacher when the student is doing poorly academically. They will even tells lies about the teacher, tell lies about themselves, blame the teacher and try to get the teacher in trouble. Of course, they don't generally try to kill the teacher but then Philip Chism is not every student. He probably has some underlying pathology that just needed to be awakened.

I am not saying that rage at Colleen Ritzer over failing at math was his only motivation for the crime, but I think it was a distinct possibility and one of several contributing factors. Who knows with somebody who is a powder keg what the ignition might be.

P.S. Not only are there marked differences between how Danvers and his previous schools performed on their state assessments for academics but that is true within a larger picture in which the two states have marked differences in the proficiency required on those tests. This makes the performance disparity even more meaningful. You can check the state test scores at GreatSchools and I found this online which specifically names the two states in question.

From: http://educationnext.org/few-states-set-worldclass-standards/

"Comparing the States

Three states—Massachusetts, South Carolina, and Missouri—have established world-class standards in math and reading as the goal for all students. Every other state has established a lower proficiency standard, and some states (for example, Georgia and Tennessee) declare most students proficient even when their performance is miles short of the NAEP standard."

In other words, Danvers High School scores very highly on its state assessments of academics within a state (Massachusetts) that has some of the highest performance standards among all states. On the other hand, Chism's former school scored poorly on its state assessments of academics within a state (Tennessee) that has THE lowest performance standards among all states. According to the website, Tennessee has the worst standards of all 51 states and the District of Columbia. Naturally no school can get away with flunking the majority of its students so each state is giving a lot of passing grades. The difference is that the school in Tennessee is passing a large proportion of students who have no academic competence. The students do not know this and neither do their parents so they have a false sense of competence.
 
  • #615
Amen and thank you, MesaVerde........amen

:loveyou:
 
  • #616
  • #617
I think he was enraged that he was failing her class. In my experience as a math teacher, I never had a student who was completely checked out mentally from class whom I did not flunk for almost total lack of math proficiency. I think most nonteachers as well as any teachers who have not worked in both low academic standard and well as high academic standard schools would not understand how deficient in math Chism would have been in comparison to most of the other students at Danvers.

I checked on Chism's previous schools in Tennessee online. As just one indicator (I don't care to discuss the others since it would likely lead to inflammatory political discussions) their test scores are bad, really bad. Having worked in those types of schools I can tell you for a fact that both the academic and behavioral standards are low. The academic content, especially in mathematics, is watered down to the point that the courses have almost no resemblance to their description in the state curriculum guides. By watered down course content, I mean that not only are key parts of the course not taught, but easier topics from earlier levels of math are substituted and what is taught is not approached with proper depth or rigor.

In my school, instead of teaching actual algebra in algebra, most of the teachers were teaching how to manipulate fractions and basic arithmetic for most of the term. This meant they never got to the actual topics of algebra like completing the square, factoring equations, the quadratic equation. Or they only covered some of these topics in a shallow and cursory manner. This meant that most of the algebra II teachers then were teaching algebra i material. Worse, the students still could not do basic arithmetic or manipulate fractions so the algebra ii teachers were still teaching this. Calculus was a complete watered down joke that resembled nothing like any authentic calculus course. This is the math program at schools with low academic standards. Education in these schools is something that George Orwell or Ayn Rand would have imagined and then written in a book people would have read as a piece of fiction.

But the lack of academic rigor does not stop there in these types of schools. There is also a great deal of grade inflation occurring. By this I mean that students are often not required to complete homework for accuracy. Instead they usually receive full credit on their homework for "effort", which does not even mean real effort. If the student simply copies a few homework problems (that can be incomplete and incorrect) on their paper but does not even bother to make "effort" on all the problems, that is considered sufficient as effort and they get a 100. I have seen this over and over. It is standard practice in those types of schools because the administrators want the students passed on not flunked back. Of course, there are exceptional teachers who do not go along with this but they are the exception that proves the rule.

It does not end there. It is not uncommon at these schools for students to be allowed to take the same test over and over until they pass it. This mainly happens in math. I was required to allow students to take tests over and over an unlimited amount of times. This of course meant that some (maybe most) of them had no incentive to study for their test since they just figured that maybe they would get lucky and pass and if they didn't, well, they got a free look at the test and would get as many other tries as they want. Often, the teachers are also required to weight homework heavier than test and quiz grades so that would virtually ensure almost everybody would pass automatically regardless of genuine effort or competence in the subject.

So Philip Chism came from schools like that. Then after years of watered down academics and grade inflation, he suddenly has to hit the ground running academically at a school that had much higher academic standards. Unless you have seen what I have seen, you can't imagine how academically unprepared he would have been. The subject that would have been the most difficult and the most impossible to catch up in would have been math. The real world is not like the movie Stand and Deliver that pretended kids could gain math proficiency in only a year because the math teacher was so great. That was never what Jaime Escalante did and the movie twisted the truth into a terrible lie to make an exciting movie. The truth was far less glamorous. The truth was that Escalante and his principal arranged for the feeder schools and courses for calculus to be beefed up so that a select group of capable students could succeed in his calculus class.

In real life, students like Philip Chism do not catch up in math quickly. They struggle for a long time. As Chism's math teacher, Ms. Ritzer would most definitely have been very aware of how severely deficient he was in math even if she didn't have the experiences to understand why.

Just as one example of this, I was discussing the low standards at our school with a parent once, the parent suddenly exclaimed, "Oh! My nephew used to go here and had all A's without ever doing any work. He was so lazy. Now he is at S.C. (a suburb school out of the county with much higher academic standards and exactly the kind of "good" school I was describing to the parent as a contrast to ours) and he is flunking almost everything except now he is really trying. I mean he is really trying and he just can't pass." I replied, "You've got it."

Currently, there is an epidemic of students who go to college believing they are academically prepared only to find that they place into remedial math or English, which they proceed to flunk repeatedly before dropping out of college. Their prior academic experiences in k-12 left them not only unprepared for real academics but with an unrealistic perception of their competence and abilities.

Philip Chism and his mother would have easily believed that he was much more academically advanced than he really was and may have also had an inflated sense of his intelligence. When he found himself to be behind academically at Danvers he would have been shocked, afraid, and distressed. He might have felt that the world came off its axis. Nobody besides Philip himself, God, and Colleen Ritzer would have understand how seriously deficient he was in mathematics.

She singled him out for staying after school because she understood how severely deficient he was in math. By the first week of school I generally knew which students were struggling. Even a clueless teacher would know by week three. They were several weeks into the school year so she would have known absolutely that he was academically in serious trouble. She was motivated by being a good teacher not by some lascivious intentions. Nobody with any ability to read people could look at her or read her postings and think she was other than a well intentioned and good hearted person.

But Philip could have still felt anger and hatred toward her. It it not uncommon for students and their parents to be angry or enraged at the teacher when the student is doing poorly academically. They will even tells lies about the teacher, tell lies about themselves, blame the teacher and try to get the teacher in trouble. Of course, they don't generally try to kill the teacher but then Philip Chism is not every student. He probably has some underlying pathology that just needed to be awakened.

I am not saying that rage at Colleen Ritzer over failing at math was his only motivation for the crime, but I think it was a distinct possibility and one of several contributing factors. Who knows with somebody who is a powder keg what the ignition might be.

P.S. Not only are there marked differences between how Danvers and his previous schools performed on their state assessments for academics but that is true within a larger picture in which the two states have marked differences in the proficiency required on those tests. This makes the performance disparity even more meaningful. You can check the state test scores at GreatSchools and I found this online which specifically names the two states in question.

From: http://educationnext.org/few-states-set-worldclass-standards/

"Comparing the States

Three states—Massachusetts, South Carolina, and Missouri—have established world-class standards in math and reading as the goal for all students. Every other state has established a lower proficiency standard, and some states (for example, Georgia and Tennessee) declare most students proficient even when their performance is miles short of the NAEP standard."

In other words, Danvers High School scores very highly on its state assessments of academics within a state (Massachusetts) that has some of the highest performance standards among all states. On the other hand, Chism's former school scored poorly on its state assessments of academics within a state (Tennessee) that has THE lowest performance standards among all states. According to the website, Tennessee has the worst standards of all 51 states and the District of Columbia. Naturally no school can get away with flunking the majority of its students so each state is giving a lot of passing grades. The difference is that the school in Tennessee is passing a large proportion of students who have no academic competence. The students do not know this and neither do their parents so they have a false sense of competence.


I stand and applaud this well thought out post. THANK YOU. I worked in the public schools in Los Angeles for years, and I know exactly what you speak of. The differences between the school standards of schools just a few miles away from each other can be like night and day. I have seen it myself. It is both astounding and disconcerting. It is hard to know what to do about it though.
 
  • #618
I stand and applaud this well thought out post. THANK YOU. I worked in the public schools in Los Angeles for years, and I know exactly what you speak of. The differences between the school standards of schools just a few miles away from each other can be like night and day. I have seen it myself. It is both astounding and disconcerting. It is hard to know what to do about it though.

Ah, a comrade in arms. Too bad there are never enough of us at a single school or school district who get what is happening. It seems we are always doomed to defeat in trying to improve the situation by being outnumbered. You know, I spent years of my life studying this issue. I finally came to the conclusion that nothing can be done about it because the underlying causes are too deeply entrenched. The answer to the problem can be found in Henry Gradillas' book. But anybody who does what he did will just have their career destroyed by the powers that be so it can never be more than an isolated and short-term experiment. So it is no use attempting it unless you are hell bent on being martyred to a losing cause. I guess I have turned into Benjamin the donkey from Animal Farm.
 
  • #619
Ah, a comrade in arms. Too bad there are never enough of us at a single school or school district who get what is happening. It seems we are always doomed to defeat in trying to improve the situation by being outnumbered. You know, I spent years of my life studying this issue. I finally came to the conclusion that nothing can be done about it because the underlying causes are too deeply entrenched. The answer to the problem can be found in Henry Gradillas' book. But anybody who does what he did will just have their career destroyed by the powers that be so it can never be more than an isolated and short-term experiment. So it is no use attempting it unless you are hell bent on being martyred to a losing cause. I guess I have turned into Benjamin the donkey from Animal Farm.

I will have to look at that book!

I was not a teacher. I was a classified employee working in the various offices, from principal's to attendance. In doing so, I got broad overview of the students behaviors and their families. Imo,that is where much of the causes are deeply entrenched. In many of the inner city schools, teachers are often seen as 'the enemy.' Parents often look at them as adversaries, and assume that if a teacher gives the student an incomplete for a missing assignment, that must mean the teacher took it and threw it away. Never occurs to them their kid did not do the work. It was very frustrating for the young, enthusiastic teachers to be faced with some of the confusing mixed messages from some of the parents and guardians.

And the classroom 'disruption level' in the inner city schools is beyond belief. There is no easy way for a teacher to get much done when there is a constant flood of disrupting antics from the few troubled kids that are not quite disruptive enough to be expelled. But that type of behavior would never be allowed in a top tiered school. Sneering loudly, flipping teachers off, cussing, threatening, and nothing is done. And yet in a school that needs peace and serenity in order to help their students catch up, disruptive behavior is not only allowed, it is expected. Some good students even had to 'sneak' their homework onto the teachers desk each day,for fear of being seen by the others, who would harass them for doing the work on time. It is overwhelming to look at the differences between many of the school environments.
 
  • #620
I will have to look at that book!

I was not a teacher. I was a classified employee working in the various offices, from principal's to attendance. In doing so, I got broad overview of the students behaviors and their families. Imo,that is where much of the causes are deeply entrenched. In many of the inner city schools, teachers are often seen as 'the enemy.' Parents often look at them as adversaries, and assume that if a teacher gives the student an incomplete for a missing assignment, that must mean the teacher took it and threw it away. Never occurs to them their kid did not do the work. It was very frustrating for the young, enthusiastic teachers to be faced with some of the confusing mixed messages from some of the parents and guardians.

And the classroom 'disruption level' in the inner city schools is beyond belief. There is no easy way for a teacher to get much done when there is a constant flood of disrupting antics from the few troubled kids that are not quite disruptive enough to be expelled. But that type of behavior would never be allowed in a top tiered school. Sneering loudly, flipping teachers off, cussing, threatening, and nothing is done. And yet in a school that needs peace and serenity in order to help their students catch up, disruptive behavior is not only allowed, it is expected. Some good students even had to 'sneak' their homework onto the teachers desk each day,for fear of being seen by the others, who would harass them for doing the work on time. It is overwhelming to look at the differences between many of the school environments.

One of the key points clear in the book is that by trying to save them all, you doom them all. As you say, school admin in those types of schools are committed to a strategy of being very permissive of nonattendance, violence, disrespect, theft, low worth ethic and other poor behaviors by students. Any teacher who tries to combat this comes up against administration. Any administrator who tries to help the teacher combat this comes up against the school district powers that be. So those behaviors are allowed, which means that the children who have the willingness and capacity to succeed academically mostly have that chance taken away every day of every year of their school life. It is an affront to decency, isn't it? And unfortunately, the enabling of these behaviors trains up entire cohorts of students to continue these behaviors in the society at large, which is a powerful contributing factor to overall crime in our country. Well, it is what it is, huh.
 
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