MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #20 Retrial

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I frankly do not understand why so much is made of Cellebrite extractions and how the data is interpreted when you could simply go to the mobile phone company to verify if calls came across their network. Or Google to verify when exactly searches like "hos long to die in cold" was sent to their servers.
 
One thing that I learned from all those media interviews that KR did in the last year is that they made the correct decision in not having her testify...she is not like-able and that can really impact a jury.
I have not watched the media interviews but I did watch Karen in court.
She has a way about her that is off putting - maybe hard edges or whatever, she is def not a sympathetic defendant. I dont know why she puts herself out there.

I personally take into account the stress on her from this entire ordeal as well as her health issues and also realize that what I think of her demeanor, has no bearing on her guilt ot innocence.

When I look at the beautiful picture at the front of most threads of John and Karen together, I see Karen in a very different light - Karen looks happy /relaxed/ soft.
She and John looked so damned happy.

Just a tradegy all around JMO
 
I have not watched the media interviews but I did watch Karen in court.
She has a way about her that is off putting - maybe hard edges or whatever, she is def not a sympathetic defendant. I dont know why she puts herself out there.

I personally take into account the stress on her from this entire ordeal as well as her health issues and also realize that what I think of her demeanor, has no bearing on her guilt ot innocence.

When I look at the beautiful picture at the front of most threads of John and Karen together, I see Karen in a very different light - Karen looks happy /relaxed/ soft.
She and John looked so damned happy.

Just a tradegy all around JMO
Exactly!
Even seeing her greeting John at the bar that night, we could see how happy she looked to see him.
How does one act when they believe they've been falsely accused?
We want to see her show remorse in court, we want to hear her say she's sorry, we want to see her sit demurely looking sympathetic - and yet, she's fighting for her freedom in a crime she says she did not commit.
 
The personalities that I do not like are the bulldog know-it-all busybody Jennifer McCabe; defiant Matthew McCabe; keep your mouth shut until you're forced to talk lying Brian Albert; evasive and lying Brian Higgins; seemingly still drunk years later and arrogant Julie Nagel, disgusting and unprofessional Michael Proctor; aggressive Proctor's wife, and likely others, when I think about their behavior/conduct since this incident.
MOO
 
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I like KR too. Everyone expects her to be in this devastated grieving widow mode for yeeeears, and to not be strong when she's being attacked from all angles. They criticize if she makes ANY face whatsoever in court while responding to any of Bev's super sane and super normal rulings, they even somehow find ways to criticize Karen for being the victim of disgusting misogynistic behavior by Proctor. I think she's incredibly resilient and seems like she'd be fun to have a meal with.
I agree! She reminds me of some of my gritty family members from NY, some of my closest (favorite) friends, and every dang person I've met in the 10 years living all over the state of MA. Anytime I've come across anything remotely close to an injustice-- benign in comparison, like a landlord being a jerk--I become OBSESSED in protecting myself and not letting whomever get away with it. Get this: we have never been involved in a criminal accusation! Side-eyed and whatnot? Sure. But that doesn't throw you in prison.

It is understandable (perhaps expected) for KR to be so "loud" and involved. As far as "The Voicemails", I've made more of those calls/voicemails/texts than I'd like to admit. Also, like Karen, I have big eyes which double in size when I'm excited in any way, for better or worse. It gets me in trouble, but we were born this way. Same goes for my mouth structure which I've been told "carries a lot of energy". Guilty or not, it is disgusting how negatively her physical presentation and personality is being used by the media with all of the unflattering, cherry picked photos. This case is highlighting loads of issues, I'd hope something [more] about sexism in the judicial system comes up as well. IMO.
 
I have not watched the media interviews but I did watch Karen in court.
She has a way about her that is off putting - maybe hard edges or whatever, she is def not a sympathetic defendant. I dont know why she puts herself out there.

I personally take into account the stress on her from this entire ordeal as well as her health issues and also realize that what I think of her demeanor, has no bearing on her guilt ot innocence.

When I look at the beautiful picture at the front of most threads of John and Karen together, I see Karen in a very different light - Karen looks happy /relaxed/ soft.
She and John looked so damned happy.

Just a tradegy all around JMO
Amen! Has nobody met someone with a "Type A" personality? ha. imo.
 
I agree! She reminds me of some of my gritty family members from NY, some of my closest (favorite) friends, and every dang person I've met in the 10 years living all over the state of MA. Anytime I've come across anything remotely close to an injustice-- benign in comparison, like a landlord being a jerk--I become OBSESSED in protecting myself and not letting whomever get away with it. Get this: we have never been involved in a criminal accusation! Side-eyed and whatnot? Sure. But that doesn't throw you in prison.

It is understandable (perhaps expected) for KR to be so "loud" and involved. As far as "The Voicemails", I've made more of those calls/voicemails/texts than I'd like to admit. Also, like Karen, I have big eyes which double in size when I'm excited in any way, for better or worse. It gets me in trouble, but we were born this way. Same goes for my mouth structure which I've been told "carries a lot of energy". Guilty or not, it is disgusting how negatively her physical presentation and personality is being used by the media with all of the unflattering, cherry picked photos. This case is highlighting loads of issues, I'd hope something [more] about sexism in the judicial system comes up as well. IMO.
Couldn't agree more!!

Think about it... if she knew he was dead, why would she be leaving all these voicemails that show their toxic relationship/would make her look bad/etc? Those voicemails show me she was clearly trying to elicit a reaction from John so he'd get back to her ASAP. Was it right of her to do? No. But I think it falls in the exculpatory evidence category.

Regarding the bold... You and I must be related LOL. I can only imagine what people would say about me if I were in Karen's shoes with all my quirks and things... Oh jeez.

You're spot on about the sexism in this case. A lot of women who hate on Karen tend to come off jealous of her station in life IMO - financially successful, independent, good career, etc.
 
I frankly do not understand why so much is made of Cellebrite extractions and how the data is interpreted when you could simply go to the mobile phone company to verify if calls came across their network. Or Google to verify when exactly searches like "hos long to die in cold" was sent to their servers.
I am similarly mystified.

On both sides, wouldn't you try and get actual engineers (or equivalent) from the actual software/device companies to explain the details?

ex. the guy testifying about using the Cellebrite tool... he's just a guy that has a company that uses software to provide a service. He didn't write the code and was only speaking from experience as a user. It's not a knock against him, he just didn't feel like the 'expert' that was actually needed.
 
Amen! Has nobody met someone with a "Type A" personality? ha. imo.
Right, I try to understand it but also consider the source of those . I DO NOT GET IT. She is obviously very verbal, intelligent for sure and not going to go down being railroaded. She is herself. Period. Just like all of us, we are ourselves. I live in MA, pleasssssssssssse, no one expects our calls while furious, NOT knowing what is going on, feeling on shaky ground with our s.o., that was a very emotional time to begin with before this, due to that. UGH, have most of us not been there? We learn as we go. These were two personalities. WE do not know their relationship at it's heart and day to day. Focus on the evidence, trial and witnesses people. It is called type A and very outgoing and what you see is what you get. Focus. Bye the by, KR is a normal and regular young woman to me, her personality is. Maybe not in some societies or the people that haaaaaaaaaate her, know any different that what they know around THEM. IMO
 
Right, I try to understand it but also consider the source of those . I DO NOT GET IT. She is obviously very verbal, intelligent for sure and not going to go down being railroaded. She is herself. Period. Just like all of us, we are ourselves. I live in MA, pleasssssssssssse, no one expects our calls while furious, NOT knowing what is going on, feeling on shaky ground with our s.o., that was a very emotional time to begin with before this, due to that. UGH, have most of us not been there? We learn as we go. These were two personalities. WE do not know their relationship at it's heart and day to day. Focus on the evidence, trial and witnesses people. It is called type A and very outgoing and what you see is what you get. Focus. Bye the by, KR is a normal and regular young woman to me, her personality is. Maybe not in some societies or the people that haaaaaaaaaate her, know any different that what they know around THEM. IMO

Regarding the voice mails, I too think they make her look less guilty rather than more. She wouldn't be calling and calling if she knew she hit him. She was calling and calling because he didn't call back. My son - who is in his 20's - has a strange reaction to being drunk. He isn't an angry drunk, he isn't a sad drunk, he is a paranoid drunk. His insecurities run soooo high when he drinks hard liquor. He can't control himself. He just knows everyone hates him and he is going to lose everything when he drinks hard liquor. His only escape from that?? Don't drink. I suspect even though Karen seems tough now, she likely has insecurities - especially from her relationship with John. They had been working through some tough things.
 
I am similarly mystified.

On both sides, wouldn't you try and get actual engineers (or equivalent) from the actual software/device companies to explain the details?

ex. the guy testifying about using the Cellebrite tool... he's just a guy that has a company that uses software to provide a service. He didn't write the code and was only speaking from experience as a user. It's not a knock against him, he just didn't feel like the 'expert' that was actually needed.
See below from internet search.
I was trying to remember details on this from past cases I have followed as cellebrite comes up in most cases. Usually its the local/regional detective that has been trained and certified in celebrite who shows up in court to testify.
I imagine if things get complex or there seems to be an interpretation at odds between D and P - that would be where celebrite would weigh in. Should be pretty straight forward. The jury should not have to guess who to believe - but that I suppose is in an ideal world.

Per AI re celebrite analysis :
In court cases, digital forensic examiners and detectives who are certified in using Cellebrite, or expert witnesses with specialized knowledge, explain the Cellebrite data. Law enforcement may use Cellebrite to extract data from phones, and in some cases, the data might be presented by the detective who analyzed it. If the data is complex, or specialized knowledge is needed to understand it, an expert witness may be required. [1, 2]
Here's a more detailed explanation: [1, 1, 3, 3]
  • Digital Forensic Examiners/Detectives: These individuals are trained to use Cellebrite software to extract and analyze data from mobile devices. They can testify about the process and findings. [1, 1, 3, 3]
  • Expert Witnesses: If the data is complex, requires interpretation, or if the jurors are not familiar with digital forensics, an expert witness can be called to explain the findings, methodology, and potential meaning of the data. [1, 1, 2, 2]
  • Law Enforcement: In some cases, detectives may be qualified to testify about Cellebrite data if they are certified in its use and the data is straightforward. [1, 1, 2, 2]
  • Alignment of Professionals: It's important for attorneys, investigators, and digital forensic examiners to be aligned on how to explain digital evidence in court, according to Forensic Mag. [4, 4]
  • Cellebrite's Role: Cellebrite provides the software and training for digital forensics, and also offers services like validating and confirming data with examiners, according to Cellebrite. [3, 4, 4, 5]
Generative AI is experimental.
[1] Oftentimes criminal defense practitioners are served copies of digital data that has been forensically analyzed. How can a defendant successfully attack such evidence in court?
[2] “No Expert Needed to Introduce Data Pulled From Phone at Trial”
[3] https://cellebrite.com/en/from-murd...aking-on-big-cases-with-digital-intelligence/
[4] Presenting Digital Evidence that Holds up in Court
[5] https://cellebrite.com/en/judicial/
thisis the link
 
I am similarly mystified.

On both sides, wouldn't you try and get actual engineers (or equivalent) from the actual software/device companies to explain the details?

ex. the guy testifying about using the Cellebrite tool... he's just a guy that has a company that uses software to provide a service. He didn't write the code and was only speaking from experience as a user. It's not a knock against him, he just didn't feel like the 'expert' that was actually needed.

So a couple of things

1. They usually do get the telco records as well. So you have both sources. But the phone tells you a lot more. Also, if they were using something like imessage which is a data connection - the 'call' won't be a call that the phone company has a record of

2. Cellebrite is one of the industry leading softwares used in thousands and thousands of cases. So there are a lot of analysts who actually are the best people to testify about the extractions rather than the coders. But I believe in this case cellebrite was also involved because of confusion about what the 'recovered' records mean (i.e not deleted).

MOO
 
Regarding the voice mails, I too think they make her look less guilty rather than more. She wouldn't be calling and calling if she knew she hit him. She was calling and calling because he didn't call back. My son - who is in his 20's - has a strange reaction to being drunk. He isn't an angry drunk, he isn't a sad drunk, he is a paranoid drunk. His insecurities run soooo high when he drinks hard liquor. He can't control himself. He just knows everyone hates him and he is going to lose everything when he drinks hard liquor. His only escape from that?? Don't drink. I suspect even though Karen seems tough now, she likely has insecurities - especially from her relationship with John. They had been working through some tough things.
She was very insecure it sounded at this time, texts being read in court showed that between them. It sounds like it was pretty much a make it or break it time due to what she was telling him that he wants her to leave she will leave, just tell her. ALL so sad and personal. She has sat through all of that. Then this night, volatile. LOTS or relations are volatile at times, emotionally charged. One needs to learn to leave it. Does not make either a bad person, but a person with frailities , healthy or unhealthy for theother person. Nothing to do with the evidence though just that of course, CW wants to use THAT instead of the professional experts on JO'K's body and the Lexus and the time lines from the people that were in the house and on their phones at specific times and the deletions etc..
 
Trying a case, charging a defendant, on an emotional level only..leads us here. Karen Read is fighting for her life. imo
We're just chatting on a message board.

KR is certainly facing serious charges that could leave her in prison for a significant chunk of the rest of her life, but that's where the evidence seems to lead. There's no evidence showing anyone else was involved but her.

Whether or not there is enough or it is convincing will be up to the jury.
 
We're just chatting on a message board.

KR is certainly facing serious charges that could leave her in prison for a significant chunk of the rest of her life, but that's where the evidence seems to lead. There's no evidence showing anyone else was involved but her.

Whether or not there is enough or it is convincing will be up to the jury.
What was that evidence? The things the CW produced? Those were all very questionable. Still are. No evidence, remember why there is not physical evidence. Remember Proctor is fired. NO ONE entered the home where JO'K was on the lawn of after he was expected there. NO way of showing that he was there, remember why, NO investigation inside that house. A favor. Not as simple as some insist for their own personal reasons instead of science if understood as shown. His body was not hit by a car and sent flying to where he lay on his back straight out. No evidence from inside at the time, before the floor and rugs were replaced in the basement. Dog gone. Remember this.
 
Exactly!
Even seeing her greeting John at the bar that night, we could see how happy she looked to see him.
How does one act when they believe they've been falsely accused?
We want to see her show remorse in court, we want to hear her say she's sorry, we want to see her sit demurely looking sympathetic - and yet, she's fighting for her freedom in a crime she says she did not commit.
Thankfully she HAS the intelligence and composure and strong personality she does have, never occurred to me to think otherwise except admirable. If she sat demurely and teary or whatever people think would make THEM feel more sympathetic towards her, SHE would be long gone into a cell by now. Think of that.
 
Couldn't agree more!!

Think about it... if she knew he was dead, why would she be leaving all these voicemails that show their toxic relationship/would make her look bad/etc? Those voicemails show me she was clearly trying to elicit a reaction from John so he'd get back to her ASAP. Was it right of her to do? No. But I think it falls in the exculpatory evidence category.

Regarding the bold... You and I must be related LOL. I can only imagine what people would say about me if I were in Karen's shoes with all my quirks and things... Oh jeez.

You're spot on about the sexism in this case. A lot of women who hate on Karen tend to come off jealous of her station in life IMO - financially successful, independent, good career, etc.
Her station in life has nothing to do with my opinion of her. Frankly, I almost felt sorry for her in the very beginning. <modsnip - inappropriate>
I find her to be a liar and a narcissist and frankly sadistic

IMO
 
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