MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #22 Retrial

[Soulmagent]

All good. Emotions are definitely high with this case. I think all the lying and shady behavior by one side of this case has made us all a little emotional! Cheers!

I appreciate the step back. TY. Once shade is flying ,I seem to become a pirate.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Whiffen was pretty much the epitome of professionalism. His answers were short, precise and he never got into any form of argument. We can all read things differently in terms of credibility and the "big picture" but to suggest he was shaken in any way is just not in touch with how it happened.

I too found Whiffen precise and not defensive. I also saw him shaken though. It seemed he was not on "either side" by his direct answers. As though he agreed with both sides really.
MOO

 

[Soulmagent]

What do you mean, "I think JOK had a ton of fault in how his peers viewed her". Do you think he talked poorly to them all about her?

Yes .

 

[Forest_Wood]

I'd agree that lots of people dislike her/ and what I am seeing is, that it's a lot of women who not only dislike her but are very snarky/mean girlish about her.
None of us internet peeps know her well or at all I assume? So IMO although she does not present as a sympathetic defendant, I don't have a seething rancor for her as I am witnessing from others.

What ever happened that night/early morning ( and I dont believe her vehicle killed John) is a terrible tragedy, unimaginable for those who loved John. And I believe Karen certainly loved John or she would not have hung in there though the twists and turns and his push and pull behavior.
So even if you believe she played a part or was responsible for his death - it certainly was not planned
like so many other cases we follow here.
So I am finding the personal disdain for her every move or action just a little bit unsettling
JMO

I agree. There are some who seem to despise and hate Karen Read and everything she stands for, personalizing everything she says or does. It seems over the top in terms of trying to understand this case.Their minds are made up and they're angry. Who knows what is going on in their own lives though.
MOO.

 

[PamCake]

Unless Jen was lying about what she drank, she wasn't drunk with having only 2-3 beers over the course of 3+ hours. Do we know everyone else was? I haven't seen all the testimony. If someone at 34 Fairview did it, seems they must have done it out in the yard given the strong evidence (IMO) JOK never entered the house.

I am starting to think it happened outside too. The fence had a gate the left of the house and the bulkhead is also right there. I’ve said maybe the 3 men were out with Chloe for a potty break and maybe a smoke when JOK arrived through the gate.

 

[Soulmagent]

I would tend to agree. Drinking & bars haven’t been my thing since I was like 19 years old, that was long LONG ago. Frankly, I don’t understand why grown adults like to go out and drink. I’ll never understand why they drink and get behind the wheel.

IMO

You do know it is illegal to drink in bars at 19 ?
I am joking with you. But try not to confess to criminal behavior.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Karen was mixing her own drinks because the pour was weak according to her!
Karen was the one talking about needing a drink EARLY that day and wanted to go out.

IMO

And John was demeaning Karen for wanting to go out with adults for a change without the kids, yet he was still hungover at 15:00 hours from the night before. And all the other crew were drinking from the minute they returned to Canton from NYC and went straight to the bars. All of them heavy drinkers for sure. I think she was trying to be like them to fit in. Who knows if she was a heavy drinker before she started hanging out with them all.

 

[geevee]

Judge Bev knows that Robert Alessi knows "the law" better than anyone.
Which is why he is on the defense team by the way.
The man is a beast full of knowledge. IMO

Haven't we watched this same skirmish before in many trials? Expert witnesses must turn over any reports they've written, but they their notes and communications with attorneys are not discoverable.

Unless Mass has some very strange laws (which I think Alessi would be well aware of) this whole situation should have been shot down from the beginning, by Judge Bev.

Oh, and the May 7 date is for AARCO's report to be provided to the court/prosecution, not Judge Bev's order saying they can testify. I'm still a few pages back so someone else may have mentioned this before my post.

 

[keek]

I am starting to think it happened outside too. The fence had a gate the left of the house and the bulkhead is also right there. I’ve said maybe the 3 men were out with Chloe for a potty break and maybe a smoke when JOK arrived through the gate.

Albert, homeowner also replaced the bulkhead doors, said they squeeked. I don't recall if the stairs to and from the bulkhead were replaced, but seems he would of done that too. This is along with digging up a portion of the basement, carpet in the area. Dog gone. His and Higgin's cells disappear the day before they were to turn them in. Got a head up.

 

[Forest_Wood]

I am starting to think it happened outside too. The fence had a gate the left of the house and the bulkhead is also right there. I’ve said maybe the 3 men were out with Chloe for a potty break and maybe a smoke when JOK arrived through the gate.

I have always believed something happened outside the house, and just by chance. The dog got involved, and somehow John died. I always thought Higgins was involved.

 

[keek]

And John was demeaning Karen for wanting to go out with adults for a change without the kids, yet he was still hungover at 15:00 hours from the night before. And all the other crew were drinking from the minute they returned to Canton from NYC and went straight to the bars. All of them heavy drinkers for sure. I think she was trying to be like them to fit in. Who knows if she was a heavy drinker before she started hanging out with them all.

She just wanted to be with John and there you go. IMO

 

[Forest_Wood]

You do know it is illegal to drink in bars at 19 ?
I am joking with you. But try not to confess to criminal behavior.

Depends on where you live!

 

[Soulmagent]

I have always believed something happened outside the house, and just by chance. The dog got involved, and somehow John died. I always thought Higgins was involved.

Seems dog molds of the dog mouth are part of the new evidence!

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[Soulmagent]

Depends on where you live!

And how old you are. Either way.. ssshhh...

 

[Forest_Wood]

Yes .

From all accounts of the text messages, and evidence shown, it seemed that JOK was just stringing Karen along. And someone pointed out that the women called her the babysitter. Karen seemed to really love the guy and she tried to validate him in her texts, but I didn't observe any love of her in the way he treated her, hanging up on her and not picking up the phone or responding. It was a co-dependent relationship that's for sure. And let's face it, what kind of role models were they being for those kids with all that drinking and bar-hopping going on every weekend.
MOO.

 

[justwannahelp]

Seemed like Chris was the one that grabbed BH and that was when BH turned toward John telling him to come with them?? That whole part was odd to me.

Karen just seemed like an insure girlfriend, and trying to be good to John's kids. This whole crew drank, and that sometimes causes problems in relationships. imo

Yep. Drinking usually causes drama. women tend to get emotional, and men tend to get flirty OR mean, if jaded — a bad combo for insecure couples. Simple Flirtation can inflame emotions (ranting voicemails and text messages). A jaded man can become mean towards another man or the woman slighting him. Then the couple in question is dealing with a cycle of arguments while sober over their behavior while drunk then getting drunk again only to have new things to fight about

Sometimes it takes a while to learn this/stop drinking so much.

 

[Forest_Wood]

So ... JMc's testimony today seemed fairly similar to me. She said Tristan was at the bar, but I thought he wasn't at the bar. Tristan was her niece Kaitlyn's boyfriend. Later she said Katlynn was waiting for her ride. But aside from that, the one big discrepancy was, she never said Karen said," I hit him." She only said, Did I hit him, Could I have hit him.
To me, it seemed like she had reviewed her earlier testimony and pretty much memorized it.
And she also said that Higgins was still there when Karen was outside, and she said his jeep was parked out front.

 

[justwannahelp]

Albert, homeowner also replaced the bulkhead doors, said they squeeked. I don't recall if the stairs to and from the bulkhead were replaced, but seems he would have done that too. This is along with digging up a portion of the basement, carpet in the area. Dog gone. His and Higgin's cells disappear the day before they were to turn them in. Got a head up.

VERY SUSPICIOUS.

I’m trying to be reasonable and not let my emotions get involved and think only of the law. From what we know so far, if I was a juror, there would be NO WAY I could find Karen guilty without doubt. I also couldn’t find the group in the house guilty without doubt. (I know they aren’t on trial, but in my opinion what is being presented about them is just as convincing, if not moreso, than what they are presenting about Karen.)

IF they end up PROVING beyond a reasonable doubt that Karen hit him, I don’t think ANYTHING has been presented that would convince me she did it on purpose. I don’t see how it’s second degree.

There’s just not enough hard core evidence one way or another. We don’t put people in prison for second degree murder when reasonable doubt is present. It doesn’t matter if you do or don’t like the defendant. America was built on a justice system that is supposed to be blind and fair. We can wonder all we want, but we must KNOW before convicting someone.

 

[lohrtabitha]

She was sent random samples from a shirt that was never in professional and proper evidence care for one. It was on the floor of a hospital, it was balled up, it was very wet per witness who did not take care of that evidence. It was left to dry for DAYS the witness said on a piece of paper. Hence, big trouble for Proctor, fired state trooper,lead so called investigator and the LE officer that also was at fault for this. Big part of the whole trial in trial one. One of them cut up a square and sent it to the lab. A shamble.

How the whole darn investigation was handled start to finish was unprofessional, yet intentionally unprofessional, with Proctor and BA at the helm. You can't tell me he didn't know to take witnesses into the station to question them while being recorded. Heck all of us on this forum know that is standard police procedure. He didn't want to. He needed to cover things up for the Mcalberts, who he considered family. I hope that when KR is exonerated, they will go after that whole criminal lot. Maybe the FBI knows some things and that's why they wanted AARCA on this case so she won't be convicted? I hope the MCAlberts are brought to justice whether its by government or by God. MOO.

 

[PamCake]

Albert, homeowner also replaced the bulkhead doors, said they squeeked. I don't recall if the stairs to and from the bulkhead were replaced, but seems he would have done that too. This is along with digging up a portion of the basement, carpet in the area. Dog gone. His and Higgin's cells disappear the day before they were to turn them in. Got a head up.

Funny you should mention the bulkhead… it could be what JOK hit his head on.