MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #23 Retrial

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #701
Something I question about the idea that if KR knew or thought she was guilty hitting JOK with her car why would she ask JMc to search “how long to die from hypothermia”. According to an EMT and Kerry Roberts testimonies in trial one JOK had blood and vomit flowing down the front of his clothes, a blood head wound and at least one swollen eye. He was unresponsive and clearly wounded. If KR thought she hit JOK with her car would she really think it would be the hypothermia that would likely kill him considering the trauma he possible suffered after being struck by a car and the subsequent wounds, lacerations, blood loss, loss of consciousness and unresponsiveness and build up of vomit potentially blocking or asphyxiating the airways it caused?

Did Kerry Roberts ever think it was weird that JMc never went inside the house to ask her sister, BIL or nephew for more help since she herself was busy trying to focus on and administer First Aid or CPR alone and could use more support, especially from other first responders like NA and BA who would be the most equipped or trained to help her save JOK?
Karen Read's own words are:

Defendant's Interview with Dateline
Air date October 18, 2024
Clip 1

"he didn't look mortally wounded as far as I could see"

timestamp 2.08.52


She didn't think John had gone inside the house, when she left a voicemail for John at 12.59am "nobody knows where the f you are"
 
  • #702
As we go through the trial's testimony again, it's interesting to see how entrenched some here are with their mindless recitation and re-recitation of points that have been long refuted way way way BARD, and embracing liars with shady shifting weasel-mouthed answers on the stand (who can't just give a simple answer because they are clearly lying their rear off).

I keep waiting for any so-called "smoking gun" but again there's not one. It's just shady "witnesses" (that didn't really see anything definitive, frankly) and over-hyped "experts" whose testimony doesn't really prove anything.

I am hopeful the jury will see through the nonsense. Maybe this time ARCCA's definitive testing proving that JOK didn't even get hit by a vehicle will sink in. Sure hope so.
If Kerry doesn’t know by now that JMc and her family were using her to further their own agenda against Karen Read then there’s nothing more that can be done to save her from those bullies cloaked as good samaritans.

I trust this jury to see through the deception and collusion of these players and look at the discrepancies.

Karen Read doesn’t proclaim to be a saint but she is no murderer like JMc and gang want people to believe and some are swallowing their nonsense hook, line and sinker.

When we look at all the things that have been uncovered by the defense in this case, the lies and tales and actions of people involved, it points directly to an ambush of Karen Read’s right to a fair trial.

MOO
 
  • #703
Yes, Ian Whiffin Cellebrite expert created a timeline.

starts at 3.39.45

Something I found fascinating about Whiffin's timeline and EIC

John apparently did not read Jen's "pull behind me" text until he briefly checked his message at 12.32 after getting out of the Lexus.

What were he and Karen doing in the Lexus from 12.24 - 12.31?

MOO
 
  • #704
Something I found fascinating about Whiffin's timeline and EIC

John apparently did not read Jen's "pull behind me" text until he briefly checked his message at 12.32 after getting out of the Lexus.

What were he and Karen doing in the Lexus from 12.24 - 12.31?

MOO
Arguing I think. She said they got into a fight and we know she was still really mad when she left those voicemails.
 
  • #705
Do have a link re the glass as I thought it was the same glass he left the with? Thanks
It's my understanding, since no link has been forthcoming from OP, that the glass which had John's DNA on it was the glass he left with from the Waterfall. The bartender Rebecca Trayers from Waterfall (link below) was asked and affirmed they stocked similar glasses. Also Dr Wolfe (second link below) was asked why he didn't go to the Waterfall and obtain one of their glasses to conduct his experiment, which was not objected to by the defense.

Rebecca Trayers:

from 2.52.00 Dr Wolfe ARCCA:

Also from trial 1:

"Andre Porto, a forensic scientist at the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab, testified that a DNA profile found on a drinking glass at the scene matched O’Keefe’s.

“The DNA profile from this item is at least 510 nonillion times more likely if it originated from John O’Keefe,” Porto said."
Forensic scientists in Karen Read murder trial say O’Keefe’s DNA was on taillight, cocktail glass

The glass on the bumper which was not a match for John's glass, was a match for at least one of the pieces of glass collected from Fairview Road. Now that we have new information that John got out of the car with his glass and Karen's glass, I suspect the defense will have to acknowledge that he was carrying an additional glass this time.
 
  • #706
Something I found fascinating about Whiffin's timeline and EIC

John apparently did not read Jen's "pull behind me" text until he briefly checked his message at 12.32 after getting out of the Lexus.

What were he and Karen doing in the Lexus from 12.24 - 12.31?

MOO
And also if he checked his messages after getting out of the car, he had to have put one or both of those drinks down somewhere, to have a hand free to open the message and then lock the phone. I think it's possible that other car that went to pick up Julie Nagel most likely drove past at the exact time John had just exited the Lexus and was out of view because he was bent down to rest a glass on the kerb, where his shoe would later be discovered. As soon as they'd gone past, Karen drove forwards, John bent to pick up the glass/es, and Karen reversed back to John, he possibly fell or stumbled backwards with his foot caught by the kerb, to try and get out of the way, and maybe Karen's glass flung out of his hand and smashed the taillight, with pieces of glass landing on the bumper, all but one of which fell off as she drove back to John's house. I definitely think his head was in a lower position with his cap being knocked off and his hair with root also on the bumper. Maybe he then crawled around in the broken glass and jagged shards of plastic for a minute or so, leaning heavily his whole weight on one arm beneath him as he shuffled along, and cut up his arm. Then rolled onto his back as he succumbed to his head injury. MOO
 
Last edited:
  • #707
Something I found fascinating about Whiffin's timeline and EIC

John apparently did not read Jen's "pull behind me" text until he briefly checked his message at 12.32 after getting out of the Lexus.

What were he and Karen doing in the Lexus from 12.24 - 12.31?

MOO

The idea that JOK was "getting out of the Lexus" at 12:32 is pure conjecture. So is the idea that he and KR were "in the Lexus" from 12:24-31, an idea invented because it bolsters the story the cw wants to tell. But none of that comes from the testimony itself.

Prior to 12:24, Whiffen testified the phone seems to be moving toward the house already (although with the reliability iffiness of the location device, no way to be sure). And then he said explicitly they have no location data whatsoever for the JOK phone between 12:24 and 12:36, with his first explanation for that lack of signal being that the phone was in a building. Although W didn't want to say it, that obviously makes it very possible that JOK is in the house from 12:24-36, and it further opens the door to lots of other scenarios. One would be that he is attacked as he enters at 12:24 or so, and then the checking of the 12:32 text may not necessarily have been done by JOK at all.

Interestingly, his phone location signal doesn't come back on until 12:36, well after KR has left.* Is that coincidence, or was it due to designed actions?

Oh, and it may be so technical a point that it goes everyone's heads, but the EXACT TIME of that text being read at 12:32 actually comes slightly AFTER the latest exact time that the cw can make for the mythical collision. (It looks the same, but it's actually a bit later.) So unless their new story is that KR hit JOK and he's sailing through the air from the vehicle strike that caused no real damage to him, and also checking his phone as he flies, their story has become chronologically impossible. (No, in this case, when they are using precision timing data, and would obviously make the times align if there was any way possible, "close" is not close enough. The cw is using contradictory data, offered by THEIR experts, demonstrably not prioritizing justice, and hoping the jury doesn't get the import.) But if the timeline doesn't fit, the jury must acquit!

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US? Based on what we are seeing in the testimony itself, a timeline that does fit looks like this:
1 JOK enters the house around 12:24, is attacked, then taken downstairs where there's no signal. ( Or, enters and opts to go downstairs and is incapacitated there, via some event Proctor didn't care to find out about.)
2 After JOK is attacked, JMc is sent to the window as a lookout, watching to see when KR has gone for sure, and sending various texts and calls to JOK's phone (which the attackers have in their hands) as a cover.
...There's something sketch about the contact at 12:27 -- she denied REPEATEDLY (and INSISTENTLY) in T2 under oath she ever made it, despite the absolute proof from the phone log (that she had personally tried to make disappear) that she did.
3 JMc did make a text at 12:32 to pull behind me, but it was sent as cover and read by someone else not JOK (because KR had to already have been long gone!).
4 The location signal reappears at 12:36, so either they took JOK back outside at 12:36, or they moved him somewhere else in the house, where there happened to be a better signal.
5 A few minutes after the location signal reappeared, starting at 12:41, JMc starts to oddly call/text JOK over and over in a very short time span, as if intentionally trying to create some sort of storyline.
... JMc later tells an insistent and repeated lie that KR was still there at those times she tried to contact his phone starting at 12:41, implying JOK would have been in her car and then struck a bit after 12:45 (to fit the early cw tale of events).

Given JMc's well-demonstrated propensity for creating stories and lies, it would fit to a tee that she was involved in this murder early on, most likely as a secondary accomplice to the coverup. That would help explain why she's so willing to lie and tell whatever new story is needed, from one hearing to the next. The one question we don't quite yet know: if JMc was the killer's Liar for Hire, who's the boss?

-------
* By 12:36 when the phone location reappears for whatever reason, not only is KR gone from sight, but she's already home by then. Based on distance and time to travel, she must have left about 12:29, but if the streets were slick, perhaps even earlier?
 
Last edited:
  • #708
Excellent questions! I don't have any answers other than what she has spoken about herself. She had already admitted to thinking he may have gotten hit by a plow. Why might she have thought that first thing in the morning? Maybe he got mad at her for not wanting to go inside with him and maybe he exited the SUV, and drunkenly said he would walk home or walk to one of his old girlfriend's homes and told her not to wait for him? Maybe that was on her mind in the morning when she thought he was drunk and got hit by a plow? Maybe she actually saw a plow on the road somewhere and she worried that because she had left him at the party, he might get hit if he tried to walk somewhere. Maybe she was looking for the last place she saw him around that yard? There are many scenarios I can think about that might have occurred that night, that it's hard for me to distinguish the truth. So I want to hear from proper experts about how her car actually hit him, causing the head injury and the arm injuries, to be convinced that she is guilty of hitting him with her SUV. If it cannot be proven BARD he was hit by her SUV, then the jury must come back with a NG verdict.
MOO
Hope the jury realise they should look at the actual evidence presented (or not, as the case may be). This is something the defense will hammer home time and time again throughout their case in chief Imo. It's a strange reversed world when the defense is effectively doing what ethical prosecutors should be doing. Moo

IMO Brennan is (and will prove to be) so short on evidence to meet the prosecution's burden that he's chosen to attempt emotional manipulation of the jury, hoping this will interfere with their logical engagement with the evidence. It seems to be one of his primary trial strategies. Jmo

What a sad and sorry tactic. The CW is more interested in persecuting moo KR than resetting in order to try and seek real justice for the victim. Moo

It's unbelievable how many people choose to equate anxiety in the defendant as direct evidence of murder or murderous intent. Smh. Moo
 
  • #709
Hope the jury realise they should look at the actual evidence presented (or not, as the case may be). This is something the defense will hammer home time and time again throughout their case in chief Imo. It's a strange reversed world when the defense is effectively doing what ethical prosecutors should be doing. Moo

IMO Brennan is (and will prove to be) so short on evidence to meet the prosecution's burden that he's chosen to attempt emotional manipulation of the jury, hoping this will interfere with their logical engagement with the evidence. It seems to be one of his primary trial strategies. Jmo

What a sad and sorry tactic. The CW is more interested in persecuting moo KR than resetting in order to try and seek real justice for the victim. Moo

It's unbelievable how many people choose to equate anxiety in the defendant as direct evidence of murder or murderous intent. Smh. Moo
The defense attorneys are doing the job of investigators and prosecution in this case!

What might be an example of emotional manipulation of the jury?
 
  • #710
The defense attorneys are doing the job of investigators and prosecution in this case!

What might be an example of emotional manipulation of the jury?
The little film show going on periodically. We've seen the potential results in comments on this very thread. Anxiety = murderous intent. Jmo.
 
  • #711
Jury being brought in. How many more lies will JM tell today? Stay tuned!
Exactly why do you think she's lying? What's her motive for that? I understand KR's motive for lying but not JM's.
 
  • #712
Exactly why do you think she's lying? What's her motive for that? I understand KR's motive for lying but not JM's.
Not the OP, moo probably your best bet is to read back through this thread, watch her testimony on direct and cross in trial x1, watch her testimony from the other day. For someone coming in without context the answer is not simple. Jmo

If you don't want to reach your on conclusions from the testimony, then there are several detailed posts outlining what occurred during this witnesses' cross not too far back. Moo

ETA. If you conclude that this witness does lie on the stand (which she does) then I guess you have to come to your own conclusions on the motive. Jmo
 
Last edited:
  • #713
Exactly why do you think she's lying? What's her motive for that? I understand KR's motive for lying but not JM's.

She lied in comparison to her testimony in trial 1. She was adamant that Karen’s SUV was outside at 12:45 but we know she was at John’s at 12:36 which is when she connected to John’s wifi.

She told the grand jury and some officers that Karen kept asking did I hit him and could I have hit him but has changed that testimony to Karen saying I hit him 3 times. She was forced to read her testimony to the grand jury and she also tried to blame the cops for taking her information incorrectly.
 
  • #714
And also if he checked his messages after getting out of the car, he had to have put one or both of those drinks down somewhere, to have a hand free to open the message and then lock the phone. I think it's possible that other car that went to pick up Julie Nagel most likely drove past at the exact time John had just exited the Lexus and was out of view because he was bent down to rest a glass on the kerb, where his shoe would later be discovered. As soon as they'd gone past, Karen drove forwards, John bent to pick up the glass/es, and Karen reversed back to John, he possibly fell or stumbled backwards with his foot caught by the kerb, to try and get out of the way, and maybe Karen's glass flung out of his hand and smashed the taillight, with pieces of glass landing on the bumper, all but one of which fell off as she drove back to John's house. I definitely think his head was in a lower position with his cap being knocked off and his hair with root also on the bumper. Maybe he then crawled around in the broken glass and jagged shards of plastic for a minute or so, leaning heavily his whole weight on one arm beneath him as he shuffled along, and cut up his arm. Then rolled onto his back as he succumbed to his head injury. MOO
That’s a vivid short story, but unless you’ve got security cam footage or any tangible evidence of John crawling around in broken glass, a story is all it is. The more details you pile on - down to the timing of his glass placement and the alleged cap trajectory - the further you drifted from any real forensic evidence that was gathered at the scene. MOO.
 
  • #715
I definitely think his head was in a lower position with his cap being knocked off and his hair with root also on the bumper. Maybe he then crawled around in the broken glass and jagged shards of plastic for a minute or so, leaning heavily his whole weight on one arm beneath him as he shuffled along, and cut up his arm. Then rolled onto his back as he succumbed to his head injury. MOO
The evidence suggests that JOK was knocked immediately unconscious from the head injury. How do you suppose he got himself up off the road and over to the flag pole?
 
  • #716
Exactly why do you think she's lying? What's her motive for that? I understand KR's motive for lying but not JM's.
JMc is lying to save her "family", simple as that. Something happened that night that would cause irreversible lifelong damage to one of hers (either CA or BA) and she was doing her best to cover it up and throw it all off on KR. Examples of her lies are plentiful, and some examples have been given above.
 
  • #717
Something I found fascinating about Whiffin's timeline and EIC

John apparently did not read Jen's "pull behind me" text until he briefly checked his message at 12.32 after getting out of the Lexus.

What were he and Karen doing in the Lexus from 12.24 - 12.31?

MOO
Just talking. IMO neither John or Kieran thought particularly familiar or comfortable with this group. Maybe John was more comfortable than Karen. We don’t know what the exchange was between BA and BH right before everyone left the bar. Maybe John felt the need to continue the exchange or defend the exchange. He certainly didn’t think he would be murdered.
 
  • #718
JMc is lying to save her "family", simple as that. Something happened that night that would cause irreversible lifelong damage to one of hers (either CA or BA) and she was doing her best to cover it up and throw it all off on KR. Examples of her lies are plentiful, and some examples have been given above.
Well, she got in over her head, this timedidn’t she?
 
  • #719
The idea that JOK was "getting out of the Lexus" at 12:32 is pure conjecture. So is the idea that he and KR were "in the Lexus" from 12:24-31, an idea invented because it bolsters the story the cw wants to tell. But none of that comes from the testimony itself.

Prior to 12:24, Whiffen testified the phone seems to be moving toward the house already (although with the reliability iffiness of the location device, no way to be sure). And then he said explicitly they have no location data whatsoever for the JOK phone between 12:24 and 12:36, with his first explanation for that lack of signal being that the phone was in a building. Although W didn't want to say it, that obviously makes it very possible that JOK is in the house from 12:24-36, and it further opens the door to lots of other scenarios. One would be that he is attacked as he enters at 12:24 or so, and then the checking of the 12:32 text may not necessarily have been done by JOK at all.

Interestingly, his phone location signal doesn't come back on until 12:36, well after KR has left.* Is that coincidence, or was it due to designed actions?

Oh, and it may be so technical a point that it goes everyone's heads, but the EXACT TIME of that text being read at 12:32 actually comes slightly AFTER the latest exact time that the cw can make for the mythical collision. (It looks the same, but it's actually a bit later.) So unless their new story is that KR hit JOK and he's sailing through the air from the vehicle strike that caused no real damage to him, and also checking his phone as he flies, their story has become chronologically impossible. (No, in this case, when they are using precision timing data, and would obviously make the times align if there was any way possible, "close" is not close enough. The cw is using contradictory data, offered by THEIR experts, demonstrably not prioritizing justice, and hoping the jury doesn't get the import.) But if the timeline doesn't fit, the jury must acquit!

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US? Based on what we are seeing in the testimony itself, a timeline that does fit looks like this:
1 JOK enters the house around 12:24, is attacked, then taken downstairs where there's no signal. ( Or, enters and opts to go downstairs and is incapacitated there, via some event Proctor didn't care to find out about.)
2 After JOK is attacked, JMc is sent to the window as a lookout, watching to see when KR has gone for sure, and sending various texts and calls to JOK's phone (which the attackers have in their hands) as a cover.
...There's something sketch about the contact at 12:27 -- she denied REPEATEDLY (and INSISTENTLY) in T2 under oath she ever made it, despite the absolute proof from the phone log (that she had personally tried to make disappear) that she did.
3 JMc did make a text at 12:32 to pull behind me, but it was sent as cover and read by someone else not JOK (because KR had to already have been long gone!).
4 The location signal reappears at 12:36, so either they took JOK back outside at 12:36, or they moved him somewhere else in the house, where there happened to be a better signal.
5 A few minutes after the location signal reappeared, starting at 12:41, JMc starts to oddly call/text JOK over and over in a very short time span, as if intentionally trying to create some sort of storyline.
... JMc later tells an insistent and repeated lie that KR was still there at those times she tried to contact his phone starting at 12:41, implying JOK would have been in her car and then struck a bit after 12:45 (to fit the early cw tale of events).

Given JMc's well-demonstrated propensity for creating stories and lies, it would fit to a tee that she was involved in this murder early on, most likely as a secondary accomplice to the coverup. That would help explain why she's so willing to lie and tell whatever new story is needed, from one hearing to the next. The one question we don't quite yet know: if JMc was the killer's Liar for Hire, who's the boss?

-------
* By 12:36 when the phone location reappears for whatever reason, not only is KR gone from sight, but she's already home by then. Based on distance and time to travel, she must have left about 12:29, but if the streets were slick, perhaps even earlier?
Would explain why Chris A pulled on BH at the bar to tell him to make sure John was coming to BA's home. Was John investigating anything?

I watched Julie Nagel again from first trial. She now claims she saw something on the lawn, and when the defense started asking her questions, she became very defensive and kept looking at prosecution table for help. I found her to be a liar and willing to do anything for the JJ's tribe. JenMc.

She had a lot of I don't remember, and I don't knows....when convenient.
 
  • #720
JMc is lying to save her "family", simple as that. Something happened that night that would cause irreversible lifelong damage to one of hers (either CA or BA) and she was doing her best to cover it up and throw it all off on KR. Examples of her lies are plentiful, and some examples have been given above.
Just speculating, but is there a chance MM was in the vicinity when the event happened?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
116
Guests online
1,414
Total visitors
1,530

Forum statistics

Threads
632,485
Messages
18,627,482
Members
243,167
Latest member
s.a
Back
Top