MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #29 Retrial

[Warwick7]

@mrjitty you are right.

That is what I heard. As a matter of fact both you and @kuromiiiilove are right. An occipital fracture can be a type of basal skull fracture.

Both of which are at the back of the head or even more important a break in one of the bones at the base of the scull.

I only know this because, when my daughter was 11 she had to have surgery for a epidural hematoma. She was hit in the back of the head. I'm familiar with occipital injuries and basal fractures.

That said....

It goes right back to his testimony.

Listen to him carefully...

He didn't say JO's arm was impacted first then hitting his head on the grass.

I don't even know if he realized it but, he made it clear, the back of the head injury was first. Other injuries were secondary.

 

[tara83]

That’s true. I do feel like her story changed as she presumably sobered up - she started out thinking JOK was with another woman, then she thought he got hit by a plow, and then at around 6:30am, she landed on “(did) I hit him”

But if she clipped him as some have said how did a tailight break into 40 pieces hitting a human body? How did he have only head injuries and nothing else but a strange arm injury that doesn't fit? How did lay in that weather for hours and not have frostbite plus have a high body temp?

 

[cocomod]

How can Dr Wolf confidently claim that the ground caused John’s skull fracture without examining his body, the actual wound, or his brain? Especially when Dr. Scordi-Bello noted there was no visible grass or dirt in the head wound… something you’d expect if his head had made direct contact with the ground. MOO.

Edit: autocorrect

I agree! The no debris in the wound to me indicates that the ground didn't cause the injury. Not to mention, the location of the wound (being so high on the back of his head) also makes me curious. It would be like he had to land towards the top of his head on the ground (which wouldn't have been hard enough and didn't have a huge amount of blood) which would have possible broke his neck?

I think KR threw the car into reverse, rapidly backing up to where JOK was. She either nicked him on the knee, or missed him entirely, but scared him enough that he jumped out of the way, slipped and hit his head. That fits with what both the ME and Dr. Wolfe here have stated.

IF that were true (IMHO the evidence doesn't fit this either), this wouldn't be murder or even manslaughter. Maybe attempted murder, but then again, they have ZERO evidence that she backed in to him.

Once again, the prosecution seems to be stretching the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Saying “he could have fallen onto flat ground” is pure speculation, not evidence. And it certainly doesn’t meet the burden of proof required in a criminal case. MOO

You just need to quick thinking logically, practically, and co intelligently @kuromiiiilove !!

 

[MerlinFalcon]

What was the point of Dr. Wolf? He provided nothing new.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Just so I’m understanding this correctly… According to the Commonwealth, Karen’s entire tail light shattered on impact, yet the glass John was allegedly holding remained largely intact, with just a few chips? That’s hard to reconcile, MOO

 

[jepop]

The cw have to explain the tail light and the only way is to make the preposterous claim that it smashed upon impact with JO's arm. That's the only way they can relate the tail light to their theory. I think this is what Welcher will testify to. But this will in turn be torn asunder by ARCCA. Jmo

Then I think the cw will claim through Welcher that JO stumbled up onto the lawn with his injured arm, slipped, fell backwards and received the incapacitating back of the head injury. Moo

I don't think Dr Wolf had anything to say about the abrasive injury over JO's right eye other than it was caused by a different external force unrelated to his injury to the back of the head.

I think we can see where the defense could go here to oppose the cw's theory. And it makes far more sense than the above.IMO. JO was knocked above his right eyebrow by an external force, perhaps a hit or a rough push. He fell backwards at X location, Chloe was around, she inflicted the arm injuries either just prior to or at about the same time JO was pushed/ forced backwards. Jmo

 

[cocomod]

Just so I’m understanding this correctly… According to the Commonwealth, Karen’s entire tail light shattered on impact, yet the glass John was allegedly holding remained largely intact, with just a few chips? That’s hard to reconcile, MOO

Also, don't forget those magical taillight pieces fly through the air with the greatest of ease!!! Landing near his body to make sure we know that is what happened here.

 

[mzmarymac]

Just so I’m understanding this correctly… According to the Commonwealth, Karen’s entire tail light shattered on impact, yet the glass John was allegedly holding remained largely intact, with just a few chips? That’s hard to reconcile, MOO

Crazy thought and not sure how it fits in, but what if what KR said about thinking she may have remembered "hitting something" that maybe JOK, who was drinking heavily, was the one that broke the glass on her car, in a way that one might do with a beer bottle in a bar fight, to hold onto as protection, realizing he might be entering the lion's den?

 

[lohrtabitha]

Lucky is an objective witness but I’m thinking he had his eyes on the road in front of him - not someone’s lawn. And the partygoers were too busy making sure they didn’t slip in the snow in their drunken stupors - I’m not sure they would have noticed a purple elephant climbing the flagpole, let alone a body covered in snow.

The lights on those plow trucks are bright and they can shine a couple hundred feet ahead. So id Lucky didn't see JOK, its because he wasn't there. MO

 

[Angelwatch]

What was the point of Dr. Wolf? He provided nothing new.

He really didn't. I wonder why the CW didn't call the neuro forensic pathologist that was consulted during the autopsy?

 

[lohrtabitha]

The lights on those plow trucks are bright and they can shine a couple hundred feet ahead. So id Lucky didn't see JOK, its because he wasn't there. MO

id is if

 

[HarmonyE.]

Memories of Trooper/Biomechanical Expert Joe Paul (who I kinda hope gets called by the defense!)

How did JO's phone end up under him, Trooper Paul? (Jackson)

It just did.

It just did?? (incredulously) (Jackson)

Yes. I wasn't there. I didn't put it here.

We know YOU didn't put it there! (Jackson)

OBJECTION!

 

[kuromiiiilove]

AJ will be crossing Ms. Hanley.

 

[Warwick7]

What was the point of Dr. Wolf? He provided nothing new.

He proved JO was hit in the back of the head by someone. M00

And his other injuries were secondary.

If he was hit by a reversing car his arm or side or kneecap would have made contact first. He testified that the back of his head was hit first.

 

[mzmarymac]

Does anyone remember what the kids who were in the car behind KR said about seeing JOK in the car or exiting the vehicle?

Just wondering if anyone saw him exit the vehicle at all.

 

[jepop]

Does anyone remember what the kids who were in the car behind KR said about seeing JOK in the car or exiting the vehicle?

Just wondering if anyone saw him exit the vehicle at all.

No they didn't. 100% sure

ETA neither around the lexus, in the lexus or exiting the lexus. Nagle testified this trial to seeing KR in the lexus as the car he was in drove away. He didn't see anyone else in the lexus

 

[HarmonyE.]

Does anyone remember what the kids who were in the car behind KR said about seeing JOK in the car or exiting the vehicle?

Just wondering if anyone saw him exit the vehicle at all.

The three in the Nagel vehicle. They saw Karen alone in the car, dome light on. They didn't see John on the lawn or in the car. No taillight pieces either.

The CW will try to make them out as drunks, but Ryan Nagel testified that the driver, Ricky, was their designated driver and had no more than one drink.

Ryan Nagel is a friend of Chris Albert's older son, BTW. He was there at D&E pizza the day Chris Albert's sister-in-law assaulted Turtleboy, and was jeering and shouting at TB. So I will take what he testified to as the truth.

 

[mzmarymac]

No they didn't. 100% sure

But they did say they saw him in the car when they were driving behind it, but he wasn't in the car when they went past it and the dome light was on? What was going on during that time where they wouldn't have seen him get out of the car and walk toward the house, let alone his body on the ground.

 

[bobbymkii]

What was the point of Dr. Wolf? He provided nothing new.

Having been someone who has regularly bemoaned the lack of effort by the CW to actually explain JO'K's injuries and instead spend most of their time with nonsense digital forensics banging on at excruciating length about data from his phone and the Lexus around the time of the alleged impact, (while simultaneously making pathetic excuses for digital forensic evidence that does not help their case!) it would only be reasonable in the interest of impartiality for me to acknowledge when they do their job competently. I thought Dr Wolf was a good witness for the CW, and for the defense as well actually.

I thought he did a good job at analyzing John's head injury, and also (even though it isn't strictly his wheelhouse as a neurologist) on how the effects would not result in him dying immediately, both crucial elements for them to meet their burden of proof. But Alessi, in a surprisingly brief cross, managed to get good evidence from him regarding the cut on his eye.

MOO

 

[HarmonyE.]

But they did say they saw him in the car when they were driving behind it, but he wasn't in the car when they went past it and the dome light was on? What was going on during that time where they wouldn't have seen him get out of the car and walk toward the house, let alone his body on the ground.

Karen arrived shortly before they did. It's likely he'd jumped out of the car and was approaching the front door or into the house before they arrived and maybe before she turned the dome light on. He didn't have a coat on and it was cold. They were able to see her because the light was on. John was no longer in the car. But they didn't see a broken body nor 47 bright red pieces of red taillight sitting on the lawn.