MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #29 Retrial

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  • #601
I don’t know but in my opinion none of the clips shown from KR’s interview seem that incriminating. They seem rather, IMO, to depict a woman who was in full-blown panic as she looked for her missing boyfriend while also getting overwhelmed and confused by feelings of guilt as she tries to rationalize why a small piece of her taillight was broken, why didn’t he make it home and then why later does she find in a spot exactly right next to where she remembers parking earlier? It does seem to make sense that she would probably start to blame herself given she was in a panic, knew she was drinking earlier, her memory is still shoddy from the alcohol, JOK was injured and her own car also had some slight damage?

She even asks could she have hit him? Did something occur that was emotionally charged between them and in her intoxicated stated it led her to horrifically harm John with her car? Was she playing her music too loud as normal and that led her not to hear John as he approached her vehicle from behind as she maneuver it to drive off or accidentally hit him afterwards?

It seems like she is just trying to put the pieces together. And again this is already on top of feeling terrible because her boyfriend was injured, alone and out in the cold for some people it is natural for them to think that somehow it is their fault when a loved one they cared about was hurt and they felt like they should have responded or checked earlier or been more responsible.

She also reiterated that a small portion of her taillight was broken and that threw broken on the ground because she was worried about them causing damage ( KerRob also mentioned doing something similar in her testimony in T1). This leads me to wonder were those pieces picked up or collected by LE? I can’t recall but I will double check later.

Not to mention she elaborates that the three point occurred when she missed the original left turn she was supposed to make on Fairview and thus had to make one by pulling the car up on a driveway on the opposite side of the road and then pulling up and making right hand turn at the intersection instead. (This is likely the same point and time where RN and HW first see her car getting ready to turn down the same street as them).

Also, I can relate to her awkwardness when interacting with JOK’s mother. If I harmed or felt like I was the cause or responsible for the death of someone’s else’s loved one or child I don’t know how I could live with myself let alone face or answer them in them moment so soon after such loss. As much I know deep down I need to hold myself accountable I would also want to curl into a burl as the shame, grief and self-hatred took over. I found her reaction at least relatable when she self-isolated at JOK’s before deciding it was best to leave them or give them space.

Nothing as of yet seems to point towards consciousness of guilt, at least not when compared to other possibilities like the mixture of emotional turmoil, panic, distress, short-term memory loss and confusion and the after-effects of excess or not yet metabolized alcohol in one’s system.

I think ultimately, as others have commented, it will hinder down to can it be proven that JOK was hit by a car, can it be proven that he was hit by Karen’s car, what evidence is or isn’t there and when it comes to challenging the clips being shown the defense reminding the jury that context matters.

I think the CSI effect may be beneficial or strong point that can be used by the defense.




JMO/MOO
I feel the same way about the doc. She is a very well educated woman trying to make sense of what happened to John. She did not hit JOK with her car. If she had bumped something, she's smart enough to stop and investigate. I give her that credit with my whole heart! Moo
 
  • #602
BBM
When did the defense admit 1162 was the 34F journey?

As you know (and have demonstrated quite well), the answer is "Never."

The defense never admitted anything about 1162 (and never will have reason to) because there's nothing to admit about a non-factual piece of evidence. Such a claim that they have done so is fiction and pure nonsense.

Why didn't they directly attack each and every point yet? It's not some secret concession imagined by a few here, but rather because it's not the time yet for them to present their own testimony. For now, the def is biding their time and picking apart the cw's witnesses and claims one by one.

You've shown the testimony elicited from cw witnesses already saying otherwise. Thank you for taking the time to review and share that. And there's way more coming from the def. When it's their time at bat, def will present THEIR OWN WITNESSES who will depants the cw's case even more directly and show the utter fail of the cw's claims, because the science shows that JOK wasn't even hit by a vehicle. Something else MUST HAVE caused his death.
 
  • #603
Post in thread 'MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #27 Retrial' MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #27 Retrial

***** 1162 can not be the F34 trip.

I drew a chart for myself trying to understand "key cycles." Which I have to call (ignition turnover) just to make heads or tails out of this.
---------------

Ok....here is a part of my chart: using trial testimony:


Ignition is turned over: 1159 Drove from Waterfall Bar to 34 Fairview. The ignition was never shut off. Then KR drove to JO's Home. Then turned ignition off.

Next

Ignition is turned over: 1160 KR backs out of JO's driveway hitting his Traverse. (5am or so). She drives to JM's home. The ignition isn't shut off. She drives back to JO's home. She shuts off the ignition.

Next

The ignition is turned over: 1161 KR drives from JO's house to her parents’ home in Dighton. The ignition is turned off.

Next


The ignition is turned over: 1162 Her car is loaded onto the tow truck while at her parents' home in Dighton.

From testimony, at 10 minutes and 19 minutes after the ignition is turned over, the milage is documented at 12,629. Then ignition is turned off.

Next

The ignition is turned over: 1163 LE drives it off the tow truck and into Sally Port. Then the ignition is turned off.

Next

The ignition is turned over: 1164 Trooper Paul says this is his Testing (whatever that means). His testimony says the mileage read at 12,665. Then ignition is turned off.
---------------------------

1. This shows it is absolutely NOT evidence that 1162 is the F34 trip.

2. Why in the he!! did KR's car gain 36 miles while it was in LE (Proctor's) control???!!
Great post here Warwick. AJ back in 2024 said there were several missing key cycles from the time KR left 34 Fairview to the time her vehicle went to Canton PD. Truly interesting and or suspicious however one may choose to look at it.
 
  • #604
Interesting read from 2024 how Michael Proctors conduct in the Karen Read case is causing his other cases to be reopened and evaluated.
 
  • #605
I feel the same way about the doc. She is a very well educated woman trying to make sense of what happened to John. She did not hit JOK with her car. If she had bumped something, she's smart enough to stop and investigate. I give her that credit with my whole heart! Moo
Well, she bumped John’s car and didn’t get out to investigate. I know, I know, she was frantic at that time searching for John and didn’t have time to stop and investigate. But AFAIK, she never mentioned to anyone she bumped John’s car.
 
  • #606
Well, she bumped John’s car and didn’t get out to investigate. I know, I know, she was frantic at that time searching for John and didn’t have time to stop and investigate. But AFAIK, she never mentioned to anyone she bumped John’s car.
I think you may be right about not telling anyone about the bump. I did notice in the video she must have known she bumped it because she quit backing up and proceeded forward. Like you said, bumping his car was the last thing she had on her mind.
 
  • #607
About 1162...

What I don't understand, and not sure why the CW was even allowed to show anything about 1162 at all yet (in Burgess' slide show)... they have not had a witness testify to what it is!

WE know because of the first trial. What has the jury been told in this trial? Maybe I missed them getting the information about how it was determined, who extracted the data, etc?

I don't really understand how a witness was able to testify to anything about it and it's not even "evidence".
 
  • #608
About 1162...

What I don't understand, and not sure why the CW was even allowed to show anything about 1162 at all yet (in Burgess' slide show)... they have not had a witness testify to what it is!

WE know because of the first trial. What has the jury been told in this trial? Maybe I missed them getting the information about how it was determined, who extracted the data, etc?

I don't really understand how a witness was able to testify to anything about it and it's not even "evidence".

Because "I'll allow it" ( Judge Bev Cannone ) said it is ok. That's how.
MOO
 
  • #609
Is anyone ever going to explain why the reverse safety stop did not engage on the Lexus when KR backed into JOK's vehicle?
 
  • #610
Is anyone ever going to explain why the reverse safety stop did not engage on the Lexus when KR backed into JOK's vehicle?
Is it possible that it can be turned off?

I have wondered if 1162 is actually her backing up and if it was actually as fast as the CW is saying... why didn't slamming on the brakes also record as a trigger? If she doesn't slam on the brakes, she runs him over ... which we know that didn't happen in any theory put forth so far.
 
  • #611
REviewing ChrisA's 1st trial testimony.

And I finally found my answer. WHO ASKED JOHN TO THE WATERFALL???

And then, WHO made sure John went to BA's after the Waterfall. Seems earlier in the evening John had stopped by Chris' pizza place with his nephew. And Chris told John he was going to Waterfall later in the night. Chris texted John a few times. "Where are you"....making sure John would meet him there. And CA said he did not know BH very well. hmmmmm....

So why did CA grab BH's arm when they were leaving (seems like an overly familiar thing to do)? And the next thing BH did was to wave to John and make sure he was going to BA's house.

KevinA who it seems had some sort of issue with John drove home with BH and BA.....hmmmm. And as did CA's son.

What did they talk about??

And what were BA, BH AND CA whispering about at the Waterfall after John arrived.

I am back to being very suspicious.....
 
  • #612
REviewing ChrisA's 1st trial testimony.

And I finally found my answer. WHO ASKED JOHN TO THE WATERFALL???

And then, WHO made sure John went to BA's after the Waterfall. Seems earlier in the evening John had stopped by Chris' pizza place with his nephew. And Chris told John he was going to Waterfall later in the night. Chris texted John a few times. "Where are you"....making sure John would meet him there. And CA said he did not know BH very well. hmmmmm....

So why did CA grab BH's arm when they were leaving (seems like an overly familiar thing to do)? And the next thing BH did was to wave to John and make sure he was going to BA's house.

KevinA who it seems had some sort of issue with John drove home with BH and BA.....hmmmm. And as did CA's son.

What did they talk about??

And what were BA, BH AND CA whispering about at the Waterfall after John arrived.

I am back to being very suspicious.....
I still wonder about the drug dealing JO was talking to KA about and wonder what young men were involved.
 
  • #613
Is it possible that it can be turned off?

I have wondered if 1162 is actually her backing up and if it was actually as fast as the CW is saying... why didn't slamming on the brakes also record as a trigger? If she doesn't slam on the brakes, she runs him over ... which we know that didn't happen in any theory put forth so far.

I assume it can be turned off. My assumption is based on my experience with my 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee which can be disabled. I have never done it but did look into it when learning about this case. I recall HB entering into evidence photos (Guariano?) took of the back up screen on the Lexus dash display along with the odometer but it was never discussed.
 
  • #614
I still wonder about the drug dealing JO was talking to KA about and wonder what young men were involved.
Also interesting that ChrisA is besties with Jen Mc. Per his testimony. EDIT: and who did JenMc call first after Karen called her: Julie Albert.

Small group protecting each other? I just hope Karen's defense blows apart some secret doors.

And there is someone that is not a minor anymore.
 
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  • #615
Shanon did prove something when he testified. He proved that the ring video of Karen arriving home, that they claim was “missing” and deleted by Karen, was at one time, in MSP custody.

Shanon explained how Karen’s SUV shows a “power off” event at 12:42:08am. This means she pulled into the garage and turned the engine off at this time.

This 12:42:08 “power off” confirms that Michael Proctor deleted the ring video of Karen arriving home. M00

Per testimony. David Dicicco from the MSP was reviewing the ring video on JO's phone. He made a note “12:41, I think she arrives home.”

We never knew where he got this number from. But now with this 12:42:08 “power off” knowledge, it makes sense.

Dicicco watched a video of Karen pulling into the garage at 12:41, which is 1 minute before her car shows a “power off” event at 12:42:08.

This means that the ring video that they now claim is “missing” was in fact in MSP custody and viewed by Dicicco.


Explain to me how Karen would be able to get access to JO's phone that was in MSP custody and delete this video, that was already viewed by the MSP?
RBBM Arriving at Meadows (KR being in the garage or driveway) and powering off the Lexus do not have to happen at the same time necessarily? I think the ring video that has been 'lost" showed her arriving at the property earlier than this, more on a par with 12.36 or just at 12.37. KR could have left the car running or been in the driveway running the car and texting before pulling into the garage and powering off. Jmo

Imo the cw would prefer KR not to have arrived at Meadows at c12.36am because that makes it all but logistically impossible for her to be at 34F killing JOK with her Lexus at 12.32. Imo this is why the Meadows ring footage is mysteriously missing for this time period.

Also Imo the Canton Library footage for 12.37 to c12.39am (?) is missing because at the time that footage suddenly disappeared into the black hole known as former Trooper Proctor, it was thought this footage might have potential to be inconvenient to the Cw's case. Better safe than sorry right. Jmo
 
  • #616
About 1162...

What I don't understand, and not sure why the CW was even allowed to show anything about 1162 at all yet (in Burgess' slide show)... they have not had a witness testify to what it is!

WE know because of the first trial. What has the jury been told in this trial? Maybe I missed them getting the information about how it was determined, who extracted the data, etc?

I don't really understand how a witness was able to testify to anything about it and it's not even "evidence".

Burgess testified to it. He explained both the recovered, timestamped ignition events, plus the key cycle events working on elapsed time. and IIRC it is actually the defence expert who did the first botched chip off. Burgess testified to what was done by Gaffney (she will be the primary witness to that).

But in any event much of this will be stipulated. The defence don't appear to dispute all the timestamped ignition events since recovered from the SD card - they dispute the variance to JOKs IOS clock.

Also this evidence is now split. In T1 Trooper Paul testified both to 1162 and the accident reconstruction, and AJ put to him the 1162 dispute.

This time around Mr Alessi did not dispute 1162 with Burgess. Apparently because of the new user data which has the time stamped ignition on events with odometer read.

Maybe the defence experts will still contest the meaning of 1162, but typically you would expect them to put that issue to the CW witness on cross, rather than just let him claim these things as uncontested facts.


IMO/MOO
 
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  • #617
I think if that the defense needs to zero in on the phone data... there is some info, even from Whiffins testimony, that need to be explained more. Explain the Waze time issues. Explain the Bluetooth disconnection, explain how climbing stairs is NOT from when he was in the car. Explain in more detail to the jury that the location had a wider range and why that is (being in a building).

They also need to zero in on the fact that she connected to the home wifi at 12:36ish, meaning, she was close enough to the house to connect.

The timing on all these different devices is open to interpretation I think, for all the "experts". Which actually, IMO, makes it even more suspect that Brennan has his experts lining up the times perfectly. If the timing is so imperfect, how did they make it perfect? Any expert can make it "fit" IMO Any of of us can make it fit too haha and we aren't experts! LOL

Bederow himself says the case comes down to some seconds on the timing of these various events. And I agree it does.

But my point was, that means he implicitly accepts that 1162 happens at most 60s before JOK's final movement / phone lock.

Especially Bederow, who spells out large lists of D case theory over 90mins with Tragos, never says 1162 happened on the tow truck. Now maybe you can claim the D have some secret surprise on that, but remember that Brennan already has all the D expert reports.

Perhaps they will contest it with the 4 extra days the Judge gave them ...
 
  • #618
2. Why in the he!! did KR's car gain 36 miles while it was in LE (Proctor's) control???!!

RSBM

This argument is not possible anymore because of the user data recovered from the SD card i.e. timestamped ignition events with odometer read.

It's why Brennan carefully put into evidence the photo of the Odometer from the sallyport before they did any testing. I guarantee you that odometer read is the same ignition off read from the tow truck offloading at the Sallyport.

IMO
 
  • #619
RSBM

This argument is not possible anymore because of the user data recovered from the SD card i.e. timestamped ignition events with odometer read.

It's why Brennan carefully put into evidence the photo of the Odometer from the sallyport before they did any testing. I guarantee you that odometer read is the same ignition off read from the tow truck offloading at the Sallyport.

IMO
Also the video of testing the back-up warning system, which was working, was admitted into evidence with Zachary Clark MSP.

Just to think, that was not only working at the time she reversed up at Fairview, but also when she slowly reversed out of the garage towards JOK's car, IMO.
 
  • #620
Also the video of testing the back-up warning system, which was working, was admitted into evidence with Zachary Clark MSP.

Just to think, that was not only working at the time she reversed up at Fairview, but also when she slowly reversed out of the garage towards JOK's car, IMO.

Yes. What is most interesting to me, is this defence, which front runs so much of the narrative, is studiously silent on all this.

For instance Bederow, in the Tragos interview, talked about the trashing of Burgess's credibility, which means the jury can't believe him about the clock drift calculation. Yet Bederow never argued he can't be believed about the anchoring of 1162. He also talked multiple times about Proctor planting glass and tail light weeks later, but the conversation ignored the 5-6 pieces found that day, by SERT, when Proctor did not even have custody of the Lexus in the Sallyport before the search started.

I have wondered, if AJ would blame Jen for this, but now I think he'll just accuse Proctor of it and ignore that the sally port theory can't work.

So it's interesting, that even in the best out of court arguments the defence has, these points were not addressed at all despite them having all the evidence and expert reports. IMO they would front run a theory for all this if they had it.

IMO
 
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