MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #30 Retrial

[waldojabba]

The guy who doesn’t have the background he says he is an expert in- would not be an expert in the sense of having an education in the topic. He would have engaged in a lie- but could have done great work. Some people are experts due to experience in an area and not education.

If education is the deciding factor- Dr. Welcher would have the most expertise. He has a PhD in Biomedical Engineering.

IMO

It's not about the expertise- sure education or not you could be an expert in something with or without - either way - .
It's the lying about your credentials - the actual deception that is the issue. And the decption was not really even consistent iirc. Different resumes/cvs with different degree programs and different degree dates on different platforms.
So in my world the deception kind of taints the work product.
If you are willing to be dishonest about your background to say secure a job, does that mean you will also be willing to be deceptive/or fudge things in a court of law if that is to your benefit ?
JMO

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

I don't see any correlation with the cups, at all, MO. I do though consider JO's DNA from the tail light (the impact area IMO) and a hair also there as very strong evidence to support the tiny, tiny shards of that same tail light on JO's clothing. It also is supported by JO's phone being exactly in the area of KR Lexus during the whole pulling forward, hardly stopping, putting the vehicle in reverse, slamming the foot down on the gas (30% acceleration to, IIRC 74%, NO brake) Lexus maneuver. AJMO

Didn’t the forensic engineer expert testify though that due to be limited to using mitochondrial DNA he could not exclude the single strand of hair belonging to any males from JOK’s maternal line, including JOK’s own nephew Sean O’Keefe, nor could he definitely say how the hair got there or how long it has been on the bumper? Since JOK lived with his nephew and he and KR were dating it is possible that the hair could have come from either male, particularly if they have interacted or been in vicinity of that portion of her car, or even have been transferred incidentally. The DNA on the taillight came JOK and three other unidentified males, according to their testimony.

Also, according to her testimony, the other forensic expert couldn’t definitively state either how the shards in JOK’s clothes got there considering she was not aware or involved in how these pieces of evidence were stored, packaged, maintained or managed. She did not receive them from Proctor until 6 weeks after JOK’s tragic passing. It is unclear if any formal record was available to them at trial concerning these aspects of securing evidence but I think the defense alluded to the potential risks of contamination, especially when one thinks about the fact that they languished for six weeks in a paper bag by Proctor’s desk.

 

[keek]

Thank God my stepbrother Troy is a cop and told me no way this behavior would be tolerated in his department and Proctor is a disgrace to the badge. That people defend this man is sickening. JMO

A lot of us have family, husbands in LE on ALL LEVELS including here in the MA STATE POLICE. Liars and no place for them and that is from DECENT and justice serving MA STATE POLICE. They are who we want on the force. They are being and have been filtered out, slowly over time. Getting caught, greed and self assumed power trips.. GUESS what, think again. IMO

 

[sunshineray]

Thank God my stepbrother Troy is a cop and told me no way this behavior would be tolerated in his department and Proctor is a disgrace to the badge. That people defend this man is sickening. JMO

I certainly don't agree with the behavior but I don't think because of it that would mean Proctor framed an innocent woman. There's no proof that happened, AJMO.

 

[mzmarymac]

Agree, but the discussion was about shoddy work. To me shoddy means, took shortcuts, did a half ars job, was lazy. Maybe that isn’t what was meant?
I’m not sure having a degree means a person does good work, just that they have more education in the work they are supposed to be good at doing.
It is clear here that there is a bias- if a poster is for KR then all that the prosecution does is crap.
If a poster is not for KR then all the defense does is crap.
I’m still making up my mind, and despite all the shenanigans from the Canton PD, I think it is likely KR hit him with the car.
So far I haven’t seen anything that prevents this from being possible.
Yeah, the defense has done a great job presenting reasonable doubt to the jury. And the last jury had voted Not Guilty on 1 and 3, they were just debating 2. So, she will likely get off- on 1 and 3.
It is Count Two- manslaughter that is the question.

I think she may be guilty of manslaughter

JMO

BBM and not trying to call you out, but these are the kinds of words I consistently hear from people on fence. If on the fence, the verdict must be NG. Manslaughter isn't meant to be a compromise verdict. The CW needs to prove their case for EACH count BARD. If the defense has given evidence that provides a reasonable person to concede that there may be other ways JOK died, the only correct verdict is NG.

No eyewitness to the collision
No earwitness to the collision
Shoddy police work done by questionable people
The ME refusing to call his death a homicide (never heard of a muder case w/o COD/MOD a homocide)
I could go on....

Bottom line - every charge requires proof BARD that KR cause the death of JOK by hitting him with her car.

Murder 2 - she hit him - she meant to him him out of anger - she knew he would likely die
Manslaughter - she hit him - she didn't mean to hit him but did so out of recklessness, i.e. being drunk
Leaving the scene - she hit him - didn't mean to hit him - didn't realize she hit him

JMO

 

[ShadyLady]

The guy who doesn’t have the background he says he is an expert in- would not be an expert in the sense of having an education in the topic. He would have engaged in a lie- but could have done great work. Some people are experts due to experience in an area and not education.

If education is the deciding factor- Dr. Welcher would have the most expertise. He has a PhD in Biomedical Engineering.

IMO

"Biomedical engineering (BME) or medical engineering is the application of engineering principles and design concepts to medicine and biology for healthcare applications (e.g., diagnostic or therapeutic purposes). BME is also traditionally logical sciences to advance health care treatment, including diagnosis, monitoring, and therapy.<a href="Biomedical engineering - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a><a href="Biomedical engineering - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> Also included under the scope of a biomedical engineer is the management of current medical equipment in hospitals while adhering to relevant industry standards. This involves procurement, routine testing, preventive maintenance, and making equipment recommendations, a role also known as a Biomedical Equipment Technician (BMET) or as a clinical engineer."

Biomedical engineering - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not sure how this would help this case. He did NOT do a dummie or cadaver to simulate the damage to John's arm. Nor force needed to splinter very hard tail lights. imo

 

[sunshineray]

OHHH so not the only reason. ALL his cases are under scrutiny I read here in MA. He is not to be trusted he is GONE. He lied, he mishandled evidence, did no proper procedure. It goes on. More we do not have privy to, but the STATE POLICE Board did.. got rid of him. This is not good ol' boy crass behavior that sounds it is alluded to. It is basing evidence ONLY on the word of a friend, that he also lied about knowing as well as he and his family did. Accepting a gift (to his wife, please) per one of the people in the party house as thanks.. thanks for what exactly??? For who exactly? Make it make sense as they say please. House people supposedly had nooo clue about anything, nothing to see, don't ask us anything, no need. What was the thank you gift for. He needs to be asked in public. IMO

Links, TIA

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Didn’t the forensic engineer expert testify though that due to be limited to using mitochondrial DNA he could not exclude the single strand of hair belonging to any males from JOK’s maternal line, including JOK’s own nephew Sean O’Keefe, nor could he definitely say how the hair got there or how long it has been on the bumper? Since JOK lived with his nephew and he and KR were dating it is possible that the hair could have come from either male, particularly if they have interacted or been in vicinity of that portion of her car, or even have been transferred incidentally. The DNA on the taillight came JOK and three other unidentified males, according to their testimony.

Also, according to her testimony, the other forensic expert couldn’t definitively state either how the shards in JOK’s clothes got there considering she was not aware or involved in how these pieces of evidence were stored, packaged, maintained or managed. She did not receive them from Proctor until 6 weeks after JOK’s tragic passing. It is unclear if any formal record was available to them at trial concerning these aspects of securing evidence but I think the defense alluded to the potential risks of contamination, especially when one thinks about the fact that they languished for six weeks in a paper bag by Proctor’s desk.

you are correct on both points!!

 

[AngTxGal]

"Horrid" behavior, IMO, is subjective in the scheme of what he said. Was it crass language used, yes absolutely. Does that then mean everything the officer did was to frame an innocent woman, not in my view. I have that view from knowing many officers, local and state, over the years. Some are not anyone I'd like to hang with, invite over for dinner or date my kid. Their personalities are what my Dad (a 34 year State LE) would have called "Sandpaper" Al or Joe etc...That doesn't then translate to them being crooked cops who would break the law and/or try to frame someone.
All my views, from my experiences, my opinions.

Agree, being crass and being crooked are not the same thing. I have an uncle who was a sailor in all sense of the word, and a grand father who was a cowboy, and also cops in the famiy.
They engage in Guy Talk that is pretty crass, but they aren’t murderers.

BBM and not trying to call you out, but these are the kinds of words I consistently hear from people on fence. If on the fence, the verdict must be NG. Manslaughter isn't meant to be a compromise verdict. The CW needs to prove their case for EACH count BARD. If the defense has given evidence that provides a reasonable person to concede that there may be other ways JOK died, the only correct verdict is NG.

No eyewitness to the collision
No earwitness to the collision
Shoddy police work done by questionable people
The ME refusing to call his death a homicide (never heard of a muder case w/o COD/MOD a homocide)
I could go on....

Bottom line - every charge requires proof BARD that KR cause the death of JOK by hitting him with her car.

Murder 2 - she hit him - she meant to him him out of anger - she knew he would likely die
Manslaughter - she hit him - she didn't mean to hit him but did so out of recklessness, i.e. being drunk
Leaving the scene - she hit him - didn't mean to hit him - didn't realize she hit him

JMO

I agree with you, and have no issue if she is found Not Guilty based on what is presented. I have no horse in the race.
I’m interested in the forensic evidence that comes up, as I’m trying to figure out what could have actually happened.

Count 3 doesn’t make sense
How could a person be charged with leaving the scene of an accident they didn’t know happened?

IMO

 

[Wishbone]

Links, TIA

The fallout from Massachusetts State Police Trooper Michael Proctor's testimony in the Karen Read trial is continuing to grow.


Proctor is suspended without pay amid an internal investigation, and the situation is affecting other cases involving him.


New documents obtained exclusively by NBC10 Boston show the Norfolk County District Attorney's Office, which prosecuted Read, sent a Brady letter earlier this month to 13 criminal defense attorneys in four cases.

Fallout from Michael Proctor's testimony in Karen Read case could be wide-ranging

The fallout from Massachusetts State Police Trooper Michael Proctor’s testimony in the Karen Read trial is continuing to grow. Proctor is suspended without pay amid an internal investigation, and the situation is affecting other cases involving him. New documents obtained exclusively by NBC10...

www.nbcboston.com

 

[AngTxGal]

It's not about the expertise- sure education or not you could be an expert in something with or without - either way - .
It's the lying about your credentials - the actual deception that is the issue. And the decption was not really even consistent iirc. Different resumes/cvs with different degree programs and different degree dates on different platforms.
So in my world the deception kind of taints the work product.
If you are willing to be dishonest about your background to say secure a job, does that mean you will also be willing to be deceptive/or fudge things in a court of law if that is to your benefit ?
JMO

I understand, and Someone didn’t check his credentials either, they didn’t care if he had the degree he says he had.
It isn’t hard to ask for a transcript

IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

The fallout from Massachusetts State Police Trooper Michael Proctor's testimony in the Karen Read trial is continuing to grow.


Proctor is suspended without pay amid an internal investigation, and the situation is affecting other cases involving him.


New documents obtained exclusively by NBC10 Boston show the Norfolk County District Attorney's Office, which prosecuted Read, sent a Brady letter earlier this month to 13 criminal defense attorneys in four cases.

Fallout from Michael Proctor's testimony in Karen Read case could be wide-ranging

The fallout from Massachusetts State Police Trooper Michael Proctor’s testimony in the Karen Read trial is continuing to grow. Proctor is suspended without pay amid an internal investigation, and the situation is affecting other cases involving him. New documents obtained exclusively by NBC10...

www.nbcboston.com

Wow, if the corruption is widespread then this may be the opening of a can of worms!

IMO

 

[keek]

The fallout from Massachusetts State Police Trooper Michael Proctor's testimony in the Karen Read trial is continuing to grow.


Proctor is suspended without pay amid an internal investigation, and the situation is affecting other cases involving him.


New documents obtained exclusively by NBC10 Boston show the Norfolk County District Attorney's Office, which prosecuted Read, sent a Brady letter earlier this month to 13 criminal defense attorneys in four cases.

Fallout from Michael Proctor's testimony in Karen Read case could be wide-ranging

The fallout from Massachusetts State Police Trooper Michael Proctor’s testimony in the Karen Read trial is continuing to grow. Proctor is suspended without pay amid an internal investigation, and the situation is affecting other cases involving him. New documents obtained exclusively by NBC10...

www.nbcboston.com

VERY different than crass or boy talk. People really need to watch the trial in whole. Watch him watch all testimony from the people in the house. Watch and listen to them in the first trial.. watch and listen to them in the 2nd trial. This includes the EMT'S. Includes every canton police officer involved. Watch the videos from this trial that were showing KR and JMc at the lawn. Otherwise, not informed on all things and people to see clarity and reasoning of the big picture.. IMO

 

[Maat99]

The guy who doesn’t have the background he says he is an expert in- would not be an expert in the sense of having an education in the topic. He would have engaged in a lie- but could have done great work. Some people are experts due to experience in an area and not education.

If education is the deciding factor- Dr. Welcher would have the most expertise. He has a PhD in Biomedical Engineering.

IMO

This is incorrect. If education is the deciding factor: DiSogra is testifying as a digital forensics expert. He is testifying on the same topic as Burgess. DiSogra has a Masters degree. SB doesn’t even have a bachelors degree.
Dr. Welcher doesn’t have expertise on this topic which is why he was forced to rely on the shoddy analysis done by SB.

Dr Welcher is an expert on Accident Reconstruction. Although his knowledge appears to be somewhat outdated, he does have a PhD. The expert(s) in accident reconstruction that were hired by the FBI, who will testify on behalf of the defense, also have PhDs. So Dr Welcher unfortunately has no educational advantage whatsoever.

 

[jepop]

"Horrid" behavior, IMO, is subjective in the scheme of what he said. Was it crass language used, yes absolutely. Does that then mean everything the officer did was to frame an innocent woman, not in my view. I have that view from knowing many officers, local and state, over the years. Some are not anyone I'd like to hang with, invite over for dinner or date my kid. Their personalities are what my Dad (a 34 year State LE) would have called "Sandpaper" Al or Joe etc...That doesn't then translate to them being crooked cops who would break the law and/or try to frame someone.
All my views, from my experiences, my opinions.

"Horrid" behavior, IMO, is subjective in the scheme of what he said. Was it crass language used, yes absolutely."

Quoted from your post above.

Moo. Proctor was spreading and encouraging misogyny amongst his colleagues and others. It affected his work and it affected his investigation of KR from the very beginning. Personally I cannot and will not minimise or justify the behaviour of those who spread hatred against women in the community and in institutional settings. Jmo

My opinion is that there is no situation within a civil society whereby such behaviour should be minimised, written off, excused or interpreted as something else. Misogyny is rampant and it damages women, families and communities in numerous ways. Imo KR was a victim of Proctor's toxic misogyny.

 

[keek]

OHHH so not the only reason. ALL his cases are under scrutiny I read here in MA. He is not to be trusted he is GONE. He lied, he mishandled evidence, did no proper procedure. It goes on. More we do not have privy to, but the STATE POLICE Board did.. got rid of him. This is not good ol' boy crass behavior that sounds it is alluded to. It is basing evidence ONLY on the word of a friend, that he also lied about knowing as well as he and his family did. Accepting a gift (to his wife, please) per one of the people in the party house as thanks.. thanks for what exactly??? For who exactly? Make it make sense as they say please. House people supposedly had nooo clue about anything, nothing to see, don't ask us anything, no need. What was the thank you gift for. He needs to be asked in public. IMO

Meant to add, the mother of a son in that house that was said to not have been at the time. Timeline he gave along with his cousin Allie, was found to be not true..not true at all.. He is not to be considered for some reason per judge c. IMO

 

[keek]

This is incorrect. If education is the deciding factor: DiSogra is testifying as a digital forensics expert. He is testifying on the same topic as Burgess. DiSogra has a Masters degree. SB doesn’t even have a bachelors degree.
Dr. Welcher doesn’t have expertise on this topic which is why he was forced to rely on the shoddy analysis done by SB.

Dr Welcher is an expert on Accident Reconstruction. Although his knowledge appears to be somewhat outdated, he does have a PhD. The expert(s) in accident reconstruction that were hired by the FBI, who will testify on behalf of the defense, also have PhDs. So Dr Welcher unfortunately has no educational advantage whatsoever.

Could the gap be even bigger in so many ways. IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

This is incorrect. If education is the deciding factor: DiSogra is testifying as a digital forensics expert. He is testifying on the same topic as Burgess. DiSogra has a Masters degree. SB doesn’t even have a bachelors degree.
Dr. Welcher doesn’t have expertise on this topic which is why he was forced to rely on the shoddy analysis done by SB.

Dr Welcher is an expert on Accident Reconstruction. Although his knowledge appears to be somewhat outdated, he does have a PhD. The expert(s) in accident reconstruction that were hired by the FBI, who will testify on behalf of the defense, also have PhDs. So Dr Welcher unfortunately has no educational advantage whatsoever.

Absolutely, but I’m watching Law&Crime channel and they have DiSogra labeled on the screen ans Accident Reconstruction Expert.
Of course he didn’t testify about accident reconstruction at all.

I don’t have a pony in the race, I watched Welcher testify. He comes across as an all knowing joke. I look forward to hearing experts that come across more professionally to hear what they have to say.

IMO

 

[keek]

"Horrid" behavior, IMO, is subjective in the scheme of what he said. Was it crass language used, yes absolutely."

Quoted from your post above.

Moo. Proctor was spreading and encouraging misogyny amongst his colleagues and others. It affected his work and it affected his investigation of KR from the very beginning. Personally I cannot and will not minimise or justify the behaviour of those who spread hatred against women in the community and in institutional settings. Jmo

My opinion is that there is no situation within a civil society whereby such behaviour should be minimised, written off, excused or interpreted as something else. Misogyny is rampant and it damages women, families and communities in numerous ways. Imo KR was a victim of Proctor's toxic misogyny.

She instantly was. p picked a side and went running with it on a personal level, creepy. Instantly. IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

"Horrid" behavior, IMO, is subjective in the scheme of what he said. Was it crass language used, yes absolutely."

Quoted from your post above.

Moo. Proctor was spreading and encouraging misogyny amongst his colleagues and others. It affected his work and it affected his investigation of KR from the very beginning. Personally I cannot and will not minimise or justify the behaviour of those who spread hatred against women in the community and in institutional settings. Jmo

My opinion is that there is no situation within a civil society whereby such behaviour should be minimised, written off, excused or interpreted as something else. Misogyny is rampant and it damages women, families and communities in numerous ways. Imo KR was a victim of Proctor's toxic misogyny.

I agree in theory that there is no situation where such behavior should be overlooked or minimized… anyone who follows true crime knows that stats on male on female crime. It is sickening and comes out of some kind of twisted belief

Problem is that behavior is so prevalent today, a zero tolerance policy would mean most males would be out of work

IMO