MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #31 Retrial

[Maat99]

Have you tried googling pictures of dog bites on a person‘s arm? They look very similar OJO’s injuries. I wouldn’t rule that out if you haven’t researched what they look like.

On the other hand, if I look up arm injuries caused by a taillight I can’t find a single picture. It’s almost as if that isn’t actually a thing. But somehow that doesn’t matter.

 

[justwannahelp]

Weird that KerriR said she had to brush snow off his face, and had he been lying there face down since 12:30 ish, any snow that had been under him would have melted by his body heat.

And had he actually been on his face, with as badly as head wounds bleed (and he had a sizeable one), the sides of his head/face would have been completely covered in blood.

Yet we saw blood streaking down his t-shirt and front of his jeans (not to mention vomit as well), wonder how that could have occurred whether he ended up face down or up? Peeps are not telling the truth.

BBM

i did not watch the first trial and not ALL of this one. Has the vomit and lack of it in the snow ever been discussed during one of the trials? What about blood pattern? If he was hit by a car causing him to fall on the back of head then the blood would be in the snow under his head. Not soaked into his sweatshirt, right? To me, this and the body temp prove he was not hit by Karen and that he was in that house or some form of shelter until at least 3:15ish am (after Lucky’s last pass and after all guests left the house/ didn’t see him lying in the snow)

 

[TristanP]

I don't think there's a question at all about that but I'll be very surprised if the defense doesn't call him. Isn't he the cornerstone of their cover-up and planting evidence defense?

Proctor does not need to be called for the evidence of his many misdeeds to be presented.

 

[angelainwi]

Forgive me, but I'm missing something.

Why and what was the purpose of JMc lying and saying she was her sister?

To buy herself some time to think.

 

[Tortoise]

I mean, I expected it to line up, since you can see Dr Welcher positioning himself and crouching down to ensure it does. MOO

No, I can't see that.

It doesn't appear that the very large defence team saw that either, because that was't put to him. MOO

 

[jepop]

On the other hand, if I look up arm injuries caused by a taillight I can’t find a single picture. It’s almost as if that isn’t actually a thing. But somehow that doesn’t matter.

The ME did not and could not account for what had caused the arm injuries. In trial x1 she conceded that they could have been caused by the application of blunt force if a dog's claw was putting pressure on the arm. AJ elicited from her that this was a possibility (she could not rule it out), but she basically said she simply did not know, nor was it her job, apparently, to conduct further research (I was disappointed in trial x1 that she never testified to looking at a wound data base, getting a second or more learned opinion). Jmo

In this trial I think it was noticeable the cw didn't really ask her anything about the arm wounds apart from the way she documented them. Moo, what the jury will gather from this is the ME did not have the expertise or perhaps motive, maybe protocols, to investigate further. This is where the defense experts will fill in the gap with appropriate expertise. Moo

 

[jepop]

<modsnip>

IMO it seems that it is the CW and prosecution that has ‘muddied the waters’. And the case is also IMO heavily impacted by the absence of proper ‘Chain of Custody’ and protocol matters. And IIUC the defense has barely begun their case in Trial 2. MOO

Yes, I agree it's the CW who is doing the 'muddying of the waters' in this case. It's a bizarre( IMO) stereotypical role reversal, so much so that I've noticed posters on here occasionally mix up the defense and the prosecution, lol.

 

[Tortoise]

It seems tampering with evidence and <RSBM for focus> would create plenty of reasonable doubt.

RSBM

Are you referring here to possibly alleged planting of taillight pieces in the snow?

Because I think it's been proven, IMO, that there wasn't opportunity for that on 29th Jan 2022.

SERT was on scene while the Lexus was enroute to the sallyport, and dug out the first pieces of taillight (about 5 or 6 pieces IIRC in total just from the road area) from fresh undisturbed snow at the side of the road at 5.45pm. The Lexus arrived at the sallyport on the transporter at 5.35pm, before it was then unloaded and driven into the sallyport. Proctor was still at the sallyport when those first taillight pieces were found. 22 inches of snow had fallen by 6pm. They started with the road so that any evidence in the snow wouldn't then be disturbed by a plow.

SERT continued to dig and found John's shoe up against the kerb, under the snow, before they left for the night at about 6.30pm. His broken bar glass had already been found under the snow about an hour after his body had been removed from the grass area, near to where his body had lain.

IMO there wasn't opportunity, or perhaps more importantly, a motive to plant evidence.

As regards motive for planting evidence, Karen hadn't told anyone John went in the house, and had told police she didn't see John go inside the house, which is why there was no probable cause for getting a search warrant for the house, together with statements from other witnesses at the scene that morning and at the house the night of the incident, and she had already told two paramedics separately that she hit him, so they had no reason that day to think she would change her story.

Additionally, what difference would it make to the police if they found less or more of the taillight at the scene? Just one piece matching Karen's Lexus is enough to show she broke it there. If Proctor took more taillight pieces from the sallport to plant over coming days, why would it make any difference to him how much was found in total, after those first pieces had been found, or whether it was all found on one day or over several days? Why not do it all on one day so that there would be less chance of him being spotted by anyone tampering with the scene? How did he get a hair with John's mitochondrial DNA and get it to stick on the car while it still had snow on it, and stay there after melt so that the technician would find it? How did he get John's DNA onto the taillight housing? Why would Proctor have a theory for how John was injured, if he knew crime scene technicians would be processing the evidence and it might not match up with his theory? The ME hadn't even conducted the autopsy yet. It was years before the techstream evidence and John's complete phone evidence (including battery temperature) would be fully analysed, showing the timeline of events. There has to be a method and a reason for theories advanced, yet I've seen no critical thinking applied to it. It doesn't withstand scrutiny, IMO.

All IMO

 

[jepop]

If the tail light had injured John’s arm and caused a wound, as Welcher said, the wounds would have been going in one direction - big lateral scrapes across the arm.

Instead, his wounds are almost in a ‘V’ shape, pointing one way one his upper arm, and another below the elbow. IMO the tail light could not have caused those wounds in the way Welcher stated.

"Instead, his wounds are almost in a ‘V’ shape, pointing one way one his upper arm, and another below the elbow. IMO the tail light could not have caused those wounds in the way Welcher stated."

Quoting you from your post.

Agree. And moo ARCCA will demonstrate this. Then the dog attack experts will testify to the most likely scenario, given JOK's wounds cannot be manipulated and his body does not lie. Repeating, the cw has finished their case in chief and not once did they elicit any expert medical testimony addressing the causation of those arm wounds. And quite frankly, imo Welcher's pure speculations re the arm wounds are unqualified. He simply does not have the requisite expertise to understand what he's even talking about. Jmo

 

[Tortoise]

"Instead, his wounds are almost in a ‘V’ shape, pointing one way one his upper arm, and another below the elbow. IMO the tail light could not have caused those wounds in the way Welcher stated."

Quoting you from your post.

Agree. And moo ARCCA will demonstrate this. Then the dog attack experts will testify to the most likely scenario, given JOK's wounds cannot be manipulated and his body does not lie. Repeating, the cw has finished their case in chief and not once did they elicit any expert medical testimony addressing the causation of those arm wounds. And quite frankly, imo Welcher's pure speculations re the arm wounds are unqualified. He simply does not have the requisite expertise to understand what he's even talking about. Jmo

There is no better an expert than a biomechanical/biomedical engineer for this subject area. Dr Welcher's qualifications and expertise are not in dispute.

He showed he knew the physics and the defence didn't crack him. In fact Alessi backed off during several challenges he started, which surprised me because it's commonly expected legal counsel will know the answer to their question before they ask it, IMO.

MOO

 

[jepop]

There is no better an expert than a biomechanical/biomedical engineer for this subject area. Dr Welcher's qualifications and expertise are not in dispute.

He showed he knew the physics and the defence didn't crack him. In fact Alessi backed off during several challenges he started, which surprised me because it's commonly expected legal counsel will know the answer to their question before they ask it, IMO.

MOO

Fair enough, I got a little hyperbolic there at the end. What I mean is that moo Welcher's testimony showed many flaws in his thinking, and his belligerent talking back during cross was an extra red flag. He did not satisfactorily explain how the tail light could have left the wound pattern on JOK's arm. And that's just for starters ( speed of impact issues, speculation with questionable grounds etc etc)..

There have been numerous posts pointing out the flaws (moo) in his so called analysis and experiment so I'm not repeating them here ad nauseum.

The ARCCA experts will provide the jury with a more learned and reasonable analysis. Jmo

 

[AngTxGal]

Have you tried googling pictures of dog bites on a person‘s arm? They look very similar OJO’s injuries. I wouldn’t rule that out if you haven’t researched what they look like.

Have you seen locations of defensive wounds when people try to protect themselves from being hurt?
Hold your hands and arms up to protect your face and head- what part of your hands and arms are exposed to damage from hits or bites? It isn’t where he was injured.

JOs injuries are on the outside of the right lower, elbow, and upper arm- where you would get sun tanned. That isn’t where defensive wounds would be if he was standing and attacked or on knees, or laying down. Wrong location for defensive wounds.

Bites are shallow, many locations up and down the arm, no paired deep punctures from canines, no bruising, no tearing of flesh.

Did you see evidence of bites on any of these locations? I didn’t hear or see where I would expect bites to be if there was any type of significant attack by a German Shepard dog.
None on…
- face or ears, or cap
- either hand
- left arm
- right arm underside where defensive wounds would be
- legs, pants
For me the dog bites evidence holds up as the backing into a person and shattering a plastic tail light. It doesn’t work

IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

There is no better an expert than a biomechanical/biomedical engineer for this subject area. Dr Welcher's qualifications and expertise are not in dispute.

He showed he knew the physics and the defence didn't crack him. In fact Alessi backed off during several challenges he started, which surprised me because it's commonly expected legal counsel will know the answer to their question before they ask it, IMO.

MOO

Agree, Welcher has the expertise for sure.
It seems many here think he came across as a cocky jerk, a little too light hearted and joking, and to some that means unprofessional, and also combine his data with Burgess who seems to have misrepresented his credentials. Sure, a jury must trust a person to buy their testimony. For me- expert testimony isn’t about personality. Personality isn’t evidence.

Tests not done- I would have expected Welcher to do that either were not done. The blue paint on a living person at 2 mph wasn’t convincing. Why not a crash test dummy standing and a glancing blow of a Lexus backing at a speed of 15 mph or 20 mph?
I find it perplexing that Welcher seems adamant that the human arm can shatter a tail light and barely be injured. Really? He did not convince me that is the case and that was his job. Why did he avoid tests that could convince a jury that an arm can break a tail light? This is interesting!

The dropping of the crash test dummy footage by Welcher made me nauseated- but I can clearly see that this is a way JO could have obtained his head injury. A raised area would be necessary- we saw a curb on the street, and I know a flagpole is planted in concrete, and there is a fire hydrant in the vicinity. This seems possible where he was located.

IMO

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Have you seen locations of defensive wounds when people try to protect themselves from being hurt?
Hold your hands and arms up to protect your face and head- what part of your hands and arms are exposed to damage from hits or bites? It isn’t where he was injured.

JOs injuries are on the outside of the right lower, elbow, and upper arm- where you would get sun tanned. That isn’t where defensive wounds would be if he was standing and attacked or on knees, or laying down. Wrong location for defensive wounds.

Bites are shallow, many locations up and down the arm, no paired deep punctures from canines, no bruising, no tearing of flesh.

Did you see evidence of bites on any of these locations? I didn’t hear or see where I would expect bites to be if there was any type of significant attack by a German Shepard dog.
None on…
- face or ears, or cap
- either hand
- left arm
- right arm underside where defensive wounds would be
- legs, pants
For me the dog bites evidence holds up as the backing into a person and shattering a plastic tail light. It doesn’t work

IMO

If he was knocked unconscious by either the injury to his face or the one to the back of his head and Chloe went after him when he was in this state, it would have taken a couple of seconds for Brian or whoever to pull Chloe off JOk, therefore, no further wounds.

 

[Wishbone]

Agree,
The issue is the taillight evidence they are using- not if she hit him- imo.
Pros is using the taillight evidence to connect KRs car to JO- that is all they have there, and her temperament in the phone calls/texts afterwards, and the timeline.

Could she still be responsible? Yes. If we assume his phone locking up is when he stopped moving around normally- incapacitated- the timeline is too tight for it not to be near when she was leaving.
Either she bumped him, someone else bumped him, or he tripped and fell and hit his head.

What a horrible way to go

It seems tampering with evidence and also other ways he could have tripped and fallen and hit his head would create plenty of reasonable doubt. I wonder if all the press about dirty cops and her being framed and such doesn’t quite work in her favor with all jurors. The Defense really didn’t have a choice but to using the being framed story- because the taillight evidence doesn’t work.

IMO

The taillight pieces are a non issue for me especially after listening to ashley vallier's testimony. She testified that there were pieces of taillight that did not belong to the reassembling of the taillight she did. She ended up with extra pieces. IMO there is a way that happens and it isn't from an accident.
Vallier said several plastic pieces found on the lawn “fit together mechanically” during a physical match analysis, while other items did not match.

Crime lab analysts testify on DNA evidence on John O’Keefe’s clothes, pieces of taillight found at scene - The Boston Globe

On Friday, Prosecutor Adam Lally called Andre Porto and Ash Vallier, analysts at the State Police crime lab, to the stand. Here's how the day unfolded.

www.bostonglobe.com

 

[Wishbone]

I’m praying the judge doesn’t allow Proctor’s friends to read his texts. If the defense wants state of mind - let them call Proctor.
The defense can’t call him.
Why?
Proctor read Karen Reads text messages. They can’t open that can of worms

IMO

Not clear on what text messages you are referring to. I remember listening to proctor read his disgusting texts to the court during that trial 1. As for KR and BH flirty texts, YB already read those during this trial.

 

[Warwick7]

I would buy that the cops banded together to frame KR to coverup a murder the committed if I could see a motive for that murder. I don’t. Did he uncover some corruption he was intending to share with higher ups? I’ve not heard a motive.
If he was killed in the house- how was he killed? Still we have fractured skull- an impact from the back as per the autopsy. To me the autopsy doesn’t support attack by dog or fist fight.

The injuries I saw and heard described do not look like fist fight injuries. The marks on his arm don’t look like dog bites- they are not even in the location typical of defensive wounds.
His eyes being swollen resulted from the fracture of the back of his head- they don’t look like fist hits at all- skin isn’t torn up around his eyes. And- the single cut is above his right eye which is consistent with the arm injuries. Most people are right handed- his left side of his face should be tore up if those injuries are a fist fight. His face isn’t tore up.
The Prosecution should have asked these questions of the ME- she likely has done cases of dog bite and cases of head injury by being beaten up.

So he was pushed and fell and hit his head in the house? Someone else bumped him with their car and they had to cover that up? I do think the cops tried to make the case against KR solid by planting the taillight evidence- and it doesn’t work. Why would they do that- to stop the questions of why a guy was found dead in the yard of a cop.
IMO she should get off- there is plenty of reasonable doubt- but to me it doesn’t mean that someone killed him in the house that kicked off a huge coverup.

IMO

BBM

Motive? Most times, the right answer is just plain and simple the easy one.

Watch Waterfall again...

One can see how bad Jen and Higgins wanted JO to go to Fairview that night through texts. You can clearly see there was a issue Higgins had with John right at the Waterfall.

In M00 Higgins felt he got disrespected by KR and then next by John, who at the bar, put his hands up kind of intagonizing him. And we can clearly see Brian grab/hold Higgins arm and tell him to wait.

Yes, there's a whole "wait to see if he shows up" to the house party. And when he does, they were going to make sure to teach him a lesson.

At the house was nothing but drunk testerone fueled shmucks. It probably started out in a verbal altercation (maybe about Higgins and Karen), and quickly someone threw a punch and it got out of hand resulting in John getting a beating, hitting his head on something hard and suffering a severe traumatic brain injury.

In M00 in the brawl Chloe attacked and John defended himself by holding up his arm.

There was no conspiracy to kill him.

The only thing that made it worse for them was they were so drunk so they most likely didn’t realize they would’ve ended up killing him.

After that, immediately the cover up began....

 

[AngTxGal]

The taillight pieces are a non issue for me especially after listening to ashley vallier's testimony. She testified that there were pieces of taillight that did not belong to the reassembling of the taillight she did. She ended up with extra pieces. IMO there is a way that happens and it isn't from an accident.
Vallier said several plastic pieces found on the lawn “fit together mechanically” during a physical match analysis, while other items did not match.

Crime lab analysts testify on DNA evidence on John O’Keefe’s clothes, pieces of taillight found at scene - The Boston Globe

On Friday, Prosecutor Adam Lally called Andre Porto and Ash Vallier, analysts at the State Police crime lab, to the stand. Here's how the day unfolded.

www.bostonglobe.com

Absolutely- but cops trying to make a solid case is tampering with evidence.
Since it seems they did tamper- some assume they must be covering up a crime that cops were involved in doing. That does not have to be the case, I’m not convinced.

Cops could be just acting as the blue wall acts- to seem to come to the aid of a cop and protect the family of a former cop.
It is possible what happened was simply an accident. The cops and DA made it more- and they did not expect KR to call their bluff and fight it.
I think the DA and ADA are stretching their charges- just to be right it seems.
Trust of LE in this area near Boston isn’t high, but LE and DA can’t seem to help but insert egos here. So now this case is a national circus opening a can of worms of macho egos with badges who think they can do whatever they want. Not a good look

It it likely that if this hadn’t been a dead cop in the yard of a powerful former cop- the case would not have come to trial. It’s a cop thing

IMO

 

[Warwick7]

Forgive me, but I'm missing something.

Why and what was the purpose of JMc lying and saying she was her sister?

She panicked. In M00 she played her part in the cover up, so she knew the fbi were on her tail.

 

[ChasingKaty]

Absolutely- but cops trying to make a solid case is tampering with evidence.
Since it seems they did tamper- some assume they must be covering up a crime that cops were involved in doing. That does not have to be the case, I’m not convinced.

Cops could be just acting as the blue wall acts- to seem to come to the aid of a cop and protect the family of a former cop.
It is possible what happened was simply an accident. The cops and DA made it more- and they did not expect KR to call their bluff and fight it.
I think the DA and ADA are stretching their charges- just to be right it seems.
Trust of LE in this area near Boston isn’t high, but LE and DA can’t seem to help but insert egos here. So now this case is a national circus opening a can of worms of macho egos with badges who think they can do whatever they want. Not a good look

It it likely that if this hadn’t been a dead cop in the yard of a powerful former cop- the case would not have come to trial. It’s a cop thing

IMO

I don't even know if it's specifically a cop thing - it's giving me OJ vibes where the cops were sure KR had done it and wanted to strengthen their case and moved/fabricated evidence in a bid to do so. (Not saying KR did it or OJ didn't, just the cops' actions in both cases seem similar to me.)