MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #33 Retrial

[AngTxGal]

That's excellent. Thank you for posting that. I converted the temps to F to compare.
So, is it accurate that after 2-1/2 hours, the body temperature would be expected to drop to about 56F-58F and a person would have zero survival rate lower than this point?
His temperature was about 80F at the hospital which is on the cusp of Moderate to Severe Hypothermia after 5-1/2 hours. I wonder if him getting warmed up in the ambulance affected his temperature registering at 80F at hospital.

That was my question in a discussion several days ago and this information came out here..

A person cannot be pronounced dead while cold from hypothermia- they are warmed up first. The body systems can slow down and then kick back in and come to ‘life’.
He was Non-responsive when found around 6, they did CPR chest compressions and rescue breathing, and the EMTs put in a vent tube- some of those have thermometers on them used to measure core body temp.
You can also measure the core temp of a body using an anal thermometer- not sure that is easy to do in ambulance.

Exposed Five Hours ??
Air was going into his lungs?
His chest compressed?
They could get a vent tube down his trachea?
Karen describes blood flowing when she pulled a piece of glass from his nose. ( No way the blood was flowing out of a small cut on his nose. Surface blood is brought to the core of the body when we are exposed to sub freezing temps.)

He wasn’t nearly as cold and frozen as I had expected.
So how does that make sense??

IMO

 

[ShadyLady]

That was so profound that KK said that! It stood out to her how strange it was. I don't imagine they are still friends. It didn't seem KK was impressed by JenMc's family after meeting them all at the bar. She asked her husband where all the other basketball moms were when she got there.

And KK had known Jen for many more years (10) than she had known Karen. So why only invite Karen? An then of course BH waving at John to come. BH texted John, Jen texted John.
CA invited John to Waterfall, Jen invited John and Karen to BH's home and BH made sure John went.

 

[keek]

See I could interpret that differently.

Wasn’t this the first time Jen and Karen had met?
Wasn’t it the first time John had hung out with that crowd?
Wasn’t Jen the basketball coach of John’s niece? Isnt’ that right?

Jen’s actions would be consistent with someone wanting to welcome John and Karen into the group? Not necessarily nefarious.

Jen is a peculiar personality- I’ve watched her testimony…
I was raised in a small town and I remember Moms that were like Jen. A bit bored, likes to stir things up and watch the drama… kinda like some 14 and 15 yr old girls.

IMO

No, KR had met JenMc before and knew her. John had known JMc a long time due to the kids. She knew what she was doing, her part, at that time to begin with. They all knew each other but KR was not of their 'crowd' nor did she seem to want to be, not relating, just through bringing and attending kids together and sport games for the kids. Gossip of course via BH to BA to the rest of that little 'group', she THRIVES on that, her with her no memory of anything though printed what she said right in front of her from the grand jury and so on. Pathological. IMO

 

[DropthePuck]

Can we really rule out Jen McCabe for the bite marks?

Y'all are going to make me become a guardian so I can use the laugh emoji

 

[keek]

That was so profound that KK said that! It stood out to her how strange it was. I don't imagine they are still friends. It didn't seem KK was impressed by JenMc's family after meeting them all at the bar. She asked her husband where all the other basketball moms were when she got there.

Right, absolutely NOT her crowd at all. KR was though as we saw and heard, KK's kind. The basketball moms are very different than the McCabe type of basketball 'mom'. IMO

 

[nightowl1975]

He does have expertise in EDR according to his CV

In any event I agree that DiSogra was on the team to be the EDR / Infotainment data guy, but some had suggested ARCCA would contest 1162.

Personally i never believed they would, as Brennan already said in the motions hearing back on 15 May that ARCCA's reports did not address it.

IMO

Interesting. Perhaps the defense opted not to have ARCCA address key cycles since they’re actually having to pay out of pocket for these costs vs draining it off of hardworking taxpayers. They invested $50k vs the CWs pilfering nearly $400k off of taxpayers for the ridiculous paint experiment.

 

[AngTxGal]

So i talked with my husband about what they could have potentially been fighting about. I told him I believed the theory that they were mad about something involving law enforcement. (OJO was going to report something, maybe, for example. We know these folks are corrupt….)

I told my husband i didn’t believe grown men this age would argue over a woman and told him about KR and BH’s text messages that night and John’s kiss on the forehead happening right in front of BH’s face then some arm motions later that looked to be aggressive in some way. I reenacted the arm motions and said I just don’t think a grown man in public would be like “bring it man” over a woman. I STILL can’t figure out what the arm motions were about. It could have been a reenactment. I could have been anything. But OJO was looking right at Higgins it seems when this took place, right? He was standing in front of KR at the bar with his head turned to his left as if to be watching something. After a few seconds he kind of directs his head to the ground. It seems like he could have been thinking “THIS guy…what a tool.” You know what i mean? Again this is all speculation - what the motions were about and what OJO could have been thinking.

ANNNNNY, way, my husband was like “oh now that you’ve told me about the texts etc, I absolutely think it was over a woman!” He said, “Drunk men fight all the time over women!” This fight was one that just went terribly wrong, as many do. No one planned on killing anyone. He said “it happens a lot but we just don’t hear about it. In lots of fights people end up SERIOUSLY injured or dead when that wasn’t the intention, especially when it involves groups of men amping each other up.” Then I showed him pics of the men and he said, “Yeh, big guys drunk and amped up — there are SO many ways John could have ended up on the back of his head.”

<modsnip>

Anyway, just throwing that out there. I didn’t think grown men really fought over women. According to my husband, I’m wrong. And from the local case, we can assume it doesn’t take much to split a head open accidentally. I reallllly want to see the wound on the back of the 26 year old’s head to compare.

I was like you, thought surely grown men would not behave like frat boys over a woman, and I too was told I was wrong.
There is possibly other fuel for the fire- an instigator- JMc.
After watching her testimony I’m convinced she is the kind to toss kindling, lighter fluid, and fuel on drama.
She knew KR and BH had been texting, and she was going to push them together into a confrontation.
I had thought all of that was drama until I saw her on the stand- Oh My, she is a piece of work!!

All of us know girls like Jen Mac from High School- and some of them Never Grew Up!

And she is a high school basketball coach? I cannot imagine how she could get along with parents and high school girls for very long. My daughter would not be playing on her team, and my son would not be anywhere around her daughter.

IMO

 

[rescuemom]

The dog vanished into thin air. Yuri said he tracked her down but even if he did and it really was Chloe, who’s to say how they could prove it was her? All we know is Jen M said Chloe wasn’t in the bedroom but in Season 1 Brian Albert said she was. We know this but the jurors don’t know what happened then so unless they call him to the stand, he won’t speak to the situation.

I mean how can they talk about dog bites without mentioning there was a dog at the scene, somewhere? They have the bites, now prove there was a dog, any dog. You're a juror so wouldn't you expect to be told about the dog the defense is claiming to have caused these injuries.

 

[Forest_Wood]

"For as long as I can remember, they have never parked a vehicle in front of their house," Loughran (Lucky) testified. "They've always had enough ample parking in the driveway."

SO I think BA would have told BH where to park. WHY lie about where he parked his jeep? What was the "story" that they agreed on before Karen decided to not take the plea deal, and per MM it became an "episode".

That is quite the profound statement from Brian Loughran that as long as he can remember over the course of decades of his travels on those roads, he has never seen a vehicle parked in front of their house. And yet coincidentally here was a Ford Edge parked during a major snowstorm on the side of the road between the mailbox and the flagpole facing the opposite direction of Cedarcrest that Lucky couldn't help but notice since it was right in his path of plowing. Brennan tried to say it was Kerry's Ford Edge at a different time, but Kerry was parked facing Cedarcrest and Lucky was not allowed to go down that road again after the cops arrived.

 

[AngTxGal]

It would be real interesting to see the damage that Chloe did to the neighbors she attacked. There has to be photos? I wonder why the defense didn't try to get a hold of them.

I wonder if the Alberts settled with this neighbor out of court. It is someone who was walking their dog past the Albert’s home and Chloe attacked their dog. Evidently the woman tried to break them up and she was hurt too. The dog- Labradoodle that was attacked had wounds on its throat- Chloe had tried to kill it.

Did Chloe escape the yard to do this attack?

It would be interesting to know how many phone calls have been made from the Albert’s phones to this neighbor’s phone since this trial started!!
That is a good place for a Wire Tap- if those are possible these days!!
Phone records would link numbers!

IMO

 

[anglolawyer]

Another issue bothering me is the conflict between what Dever told the FBI (which I believe) & the very reliable timing of the SUV’s arrival at the Sally Port (c. 5.15pm 29 Jan). For both to be true something has to give. I can think of 2 possibilities:

1 Dever stayed on way past the end of her shift
2 Dever told the FBI something she had been told by someone else (in which case it was indeed a false memory but in a different sense)

Can anyone help with this one?

 

[Forest_Wood]

I truly believe that the way Brennan has talked to some of the witnesses and experts, is going to work against him in the mind of most of the jurrors. He is a person who shows no empathy an̈d most humans are empathetic. He may be his own worst enemy in this case. Imo

I think anyone with a brain and critical thinking skills will see right through Brennan's obvious lawyering techniques. He's going through the motions. He doesn't have passion and I bet he doesn't even believe what he's saying to the witnesses. I bet Brennan never laughs or smiles in real life. He looks like he lives without joy. Contrast to Allan Jackson and we can observe the difference. AJ is passionate, fun, funny, confident, alive. Same with Karen Read.
MOO

 

[AngTxGal]

Y'all are going to make me become a guardian so I can use the laugh emoji

I suppose JMc does provide entertainment value as I grew up in a smallish town so I know…
The phones in Canton have been lit up but many of those women!!

You could feel the gossip potential- she could not contain herself.
I only wish there had been an audio recording from the Waterfall, or from the Albert’s car as Jen and Brian drove home!
She is a piece of work, if you have not watched her testimony. Get a strong drink first

IMO

 

[rescuemom]

That is quite the profound statement from Brian Loughran that as long as he can remember over the course of decades of his travels on those roads, he has never seen a vehicle parked in front of their house. And yet coincidentally here was a Ford Edge parked during a major snowstorm on the side of the road between the mailbox and the flagpole facing the opposite direction of Cedarcrest that Lucky couldn't help but notice since it was right in his path of plowing. Brennan tried to say it was Kerry's Ford Edge at a different time, but Kerry was parked facing Cedarcrest and Lucky was not allowed to go down that road again after the cops arrived.

The Edge was there at 3:30am and gone by 6am. Who moved it there abt 3:30?? Who moved it before 6am??

 

[AngTxGal]

Another issue bothering me is the conflict between what Dever told the FBI (which I believe) & the very reliable timing of the SUV’s arrival at the Sally Port (c. 5.15pm 29 Jan). For both to be true something has to give. I can think of 2 possibilities:

1 Dever stayed on way past the end of her shift
2 Dever told the FBI something she had been told by someone else (in which case it was indeed a false memory but in a different sense)

Can anyone help with this one?

My speculation only…

Dever was present, her shift had ended so she was off the clock but she had stayed
She is a rookie cop and a possible murder had taken place- she was showing initiative.
When the story came out she remembered what she had seen and it was incriminating.
She came forward- to the FBI and told them what she saw.
She got cold feet, felt pressured, whatever… and remembered she had technically clocked out- she was not on duty.

So- she technically wasn’t there. By claiming what her time card showed- she could not have seen what she saw.
So, she wiggled out of it- went to the FBI and told them she was mistaken.

Completely my speculation, but it works
IMO

 

[MerlinFalcon]

…..so hard to remember everything….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

I don’t think they ever thought she did this. I think you might have to go to Trooper Paul’s testimony in Season 1 where AJ was questioning how John would have had to do a pirouette in order to land where he did. I may be wrong about when he said that, though.

 

[ShadyLady]

Another issue bothering me is the conflict between what Dever told the FBI (which I believe) & the very reliable timing of the SUV’s arrival at the Sally Port (c. 5.15pm 29 Jan). For both to be true something has to give. I can think of 2 possibilities:

1 Dever stayed on way past the end of her shift
2 Dever told the FBI something she had been told by someone else (in which case it was indeed a false memory but in a different sense)

Can anyone help with this one?

Because it involved a murdered cop that looked like he had been beat up, and they were short on LE, she was asked to stay. And her time was altered later, after she spoke with FBI. I am not sure they even punch a timecard. Proof would be her paycheck. How many hours did she actually get paid.

Or she stayed (off the clock) because she wanted to know what happened to a fellow cop. They probably knew each other. Single guy, nice looking and a cop!

 

[HarmonyE.]

"For as long as I can remember, they have never parked a vehicle in front of their house," Loughran (Lucky) testified. "They've always had enough ample parking in the driveway."

It is a large driveway. And it's illegal to leave a car on the street in the winter after 1 am.

When we consider the party was over before Lucky made his first pass, it makes no sense for any vehicle associated with 34 Fairview to have been out there at that time.

 

[ShadyLady]

The Edge was there at 3:30am and gone by 6am. Who moved it there abt 3:30?? Who moved it before 6am??

And who asked all the neighbors in that community for security videos of that night?

 

[rescuemom]

…..so hard to remember everything….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

It doesn't matter because there was no collision bewteen a body and any vehicle according to the expert team from AARCA and CW has not proven otherwise.