MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #33 Retrial

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Sorry for the double post, but hoping to get a serious answer this time….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

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I do not think the defense have explicitly acknowledged this and imo they do not have to. I think they leave it alone because with the rest of their case as laid out, the jury can draw their own conclusions; if it's true then it is irrelevant (there were 19 other trigger events after 1162 and none of them collision related), or the jury will conclude the cw mucked this up and dismiss because ARCCA, when paired with Dr Russell, just so happen to prove BARD for the defense (here's the role reversal in action once again) that JOK's injuries are not the result of vehicular impact. Jmo
 
Shivering does buy not to the extent needed to stay 80.1 degrees

& Shivering stops in stage 3 hypothermia

But i see what you mean - could movement from seizure keep him warm. I don’t think it would slow down temp drop nearly enough to have him 80.1 degrees (if he was really on the lawn for 5 hrs 45 mins.) i say 5 hrs 45 because i don’t think he was put into the ambulance until 6:15am.

I did a very detailed study on warming methods today and used the timeline we know exists. I’ll post it tomm. My conclusion is they couldn’t have increased his body temp by more than 6.75 C from 6:15am to 7:50am using both passive and active warming methods.

I break it down way more than anyone will feel like reading. It’s loooong, but i NEEDED to know for myself 🤦🏻‍♀️

Much appreciated!
It is my understanding that core temp has to be attained in order to pronounce death, to be certain vitals aren’t slowed due to hypothermia.
That would be why he was not pronounced until around 9AM

We could infer then that normal 37C body temp wasn’t reached until around 9AM. It took hours- then possibly core temp when found could be estimated using rate of warming.

The ME said temp was measured 80F, this would be core. Not sure when or how this was measured- I do know core temp can be measured with tracheal tubes or anal thermometer-
But have not seen it reported how or when

I wondered if low body temps are recorded as below 80F and the actual temp was lower
OR if 80F was the actual measured temp.

80F is too warm
How did JOK stay this warming being exposed to subfreezing temps for over 5 hours?
Other factors too light clothing, wind, cold ground, snow


IMO
 
Didn’t she say she worked overtime that day??
Yes, as per her testimony- asked to stay and to work desk- they needed more officers
And I believe part of her desk duties were to buzz people in and out of the sally port
Officers where moved around and asked to stay- they were stretched due to the JOK case

Then she got off from those duties- so there are records somewhere
After this she could have have hung around to be involved in the case progress- JOK

IMO
 
So i talked with my husband about what they could have potentially been fighting about. I told him I believed the theory that they were mad about something involving law enforcement. (OJO was going to report something, maybe, for example. We know these folks are corrupt….)

I told my husband i didn’t believe grown men this age would argue over a woman and told him about KR and BH’s text messages that night and John’s kiss on the forehead happening right in front of BH’s face then some arm motions later that looked to be aggressive in some way. I reenacted the arm motions and said I just don’t think a grown man in public would be like “bring it man” over a woman. I STILL can’t figure out what the arm motions were about. It could have been a reenactment. I could have been anything. But OJO was looking right at Higgins it seems when this took place, right? He was standing in front of KR at the bar with his head turned to his left as if to be watching something. After a few seconds he kind of directs his head to the ground. It seems like he could have been thinking “THIS guy…what a tool.” You know what i mean? Again this is all speculation - what the motions were about and what OJO could have been thinking.

ANNNNNY, way, my husband was like “oh now that you’ve told me about the texts etc, I absolutely think it was over a woman!” He said, “Drunk men fight all the time over women!” This fight was one that just went terribly wrong, as many do. No one planned on killing anyone. He said “it happens a lot but we just don’t hear about it. In lots of fights people end up SERIOUSLY injured or dead when that wasn’t the intention, especially when it involves groups of men amping each other up.” Then I showed him pics of the men and he said, “Yeh, big guys drunk and amped up — there are SO many ways John could have ended up on the back of his head.”

Then i reminded him about the local case with a tall scrawny 21 year old college kid now facing manslaughter. While walking backwards out of a college bar, a 26 year old father of 2 in a bachelor party group after a LSU game, swung at a 21 yr old student who was walking out forwards. The 21 year old ducked and totally dodged the punch thrown at him then stood up and pushed the 26 year old. Just PUSHED. The 26 year old fell backwards onto his head and it split open. 911 was immediately called. He was in a coma for a day or 2 then died from brain injury. This 21 year old was kicked out of LSU and is now facing manslaughter.

It’s scary! I have repeatedly lectured my 22 year old son: “Walk away walk away walk away! You could kill someone or someone could kill you! If no one is killed you could still be charged with something. It’s not like the wild wild west anymore where fights are just overlooked. Legal actions are often taken now. Walk away and LEAVE!” Of course he’s like moooooommmmm 😒

Anyway, just throwing that out there. I didn’t think grown men really fought over women. According to my husband, I’m wrong. And from the local case, we can assume it doesn’t take much to split a head open accidentally. I reallllly want to see the wound on the back of the 26 year old’s head to compare.
I’ve come around to thinking that all of this started because of KR’s texts with BH. She was hurt after the NYE trip and she and JO were arguing a lot. She picks BH as a diversion . He’s like ‘whoa’, where did this comes from? He’s wary but on the other hand, can’t believe his luck. After 2 weeks of texting, they meet in person at his humble abode in Boston (Roxbury neighborhood?). She is there less than 2 hours and they text when she gets home at 11:13. ‘“I made it home.- Thoughts?- No, you?’” He reaches out next day, she cracks wise and then ghosts him. What the heck happened? Did they hook up or did something else turn KR off?
It’s possible that they hooked up, it wasn’t fireworks for KR and she decided not to continue with BH. OR, BH wasn’t comfortable hooking up with the live in GF of a friend/acquaintance and gave her somewhat of an ultimatum? BH wanted a shot at a relationship, not just an affair that would likely come to light bringing a shitload if unwanted drama and attention. Whatever the situation, days go by and no more fun and flirty texts from KR. Morning of the 28th, KR and JO in an argument most of the day. KR is badgering him when he clearly cannot talk on the phone and doesn’t want to. If she really likes BH, why didn’t she invite him to Mansfield to hang out during the storm? JO had family and kids at the house and wouldn’t be dropping by. But, NO, she drove to Canton to go drinking and be JO’s designated driver. And that night JO is affectionate and in a good mood at McCarthy’s. Earlier in the day CA invites JO to Waterfall so the couple enters that bar around 11….
Or IMO a booty call? I remember being that age and doing such things… (another life)
Did Caitlin not have her own car?

If she knew a blizzard was coming - and Jan 29 is a Sat- then she could be stuck at her parents house the rest of the weekend if she doesn’t get out of there before it hits?? My thinking not hers

Did the boyfriend have his own place- or live with his parents? That seems important here
It could be libido here and not conspiracy- IMO

IMO
iIRC , she (CA) lived with BF Tristan and he left early to go sleep. She planned on staying overnight at parents but apparently changed her mind and called BF to pick her up sometime after 1pm. IIRC, this was from T1 testimony.
 
Much appreciated!
It is my understanding that core temp has to be attained in order to pronounce death, to be certain vitals aren’t slowed due to hypothermia.
That would be why he was not pronounced until around 9AM

We could infer then that normal 37C body temp wasn’t reached until around 9AM. It took hours- then possibly core temp when found could be estimated using rate of warming.

The ME said temp was measured 80F, this would be core. Not sure when or how this was measured- I do know core temp can be measured with tracheal tubes or anal thermometer-
But have not seen it reported how or when

I wondered if low body temps are recorded as below 80F and the actual temp was lower
OR if 80F was the actual measured temp.

80F is too warm
How did JOK stay this warming being exposed to subfreezing temps for over 5 hours?
Other factors too light clothing, wind, cold ground, snow


IMO
Temp -3C 26 F but the wind is between 26 km/h and 43 km/h, the apparent temp is 14F -10C

Hard to imagine body warmth staying that high.
 
Temp -3C 26 F but the wind is between 26 km/h and 43 km/h, the apparent temp is 14F -10C

Hard to imagine body warmth staying that high.

Yes, from what I know- body temp should have been much lower than 80F after 5 hours of sub freezing exposure

Stage 3 hypothermia is about 28C or 82F non responsive, heart slow or irregular beat
Pronounced dead at hospital around 9AM
Can we infer that normal body temp 37C was reached until around 9AM. It took hours

EMT Matthew Kelly- Ambulance Driver

Firefighter/ Paramedic- Ambulance Timothy Nuttall testimony paraphrase/summary
6:04 AM Emergency Tone- Dispatch relay unresponsive male in snowbank
Dark, snowing, windy, cold, visibility low
Follow screaming sounds to find patient- on back 6-8 ft from road into yard
1st to lay hands on OKeefe Not breathing, skin cold, no carotid pulse/ neck cold, fingers white stiff, Airway- valve mask bagging/ team member chest compressions
Suction to clear airway of blood mucus saliva- prep, intubation- managing endotrach tube, notice cut on large bump over right eye
Abrasions on right arm, deep but not bleeding
Matted blood in hair on back of head
Others- Turn on heat high, strip wet clothing, attempt IV, cervical collar

Lead Paramedic- Ambulance 1 Anthony Flematti testimony paraphrase/summary
On Patient- 6:15AM Followed Nuttall to double check work on ground
Dark visibility very low, blowing snow
Downhill from Chapman to 34 Fairview on left
Observe female pushing on chest of patient, and another female, snow halfway up body 4-6 inches, front of body was clear, jeans long sleeve shirt
Hard to see patient from ambulance, body shape
10 ft from road, middle aged male, on back
Assess/Decide workable arrest- viable arrest- not rigor or blood pool, limbs and jaw movable
CPR successful but no change, mask O2, strip clothing wet and cold, turn heat on
Obs active bleeding from mouth, eyes, eyes swollen, pupils 4mm fixed, nose, red skin posterior of body, swollen abd, signs frostbite cold rigid fingers, bruise on forehead, abrasion rt arm blood
Suction fluid from airway- 150 mL , then 50 mL blood and sputum, endotrach tube, vomit aspirate?
Needle into tibial bone IO warm fluid
Epi through IO several times in route, Cardiac flatline remain flatline
Rectal core temp 80F- extreme hypothermia
NO mention of injury on back of head??
Also on scene- Engine 3 and Car 5 Frank Walsh, Katie McLaughlin, Capt xx
Transport 6:27AM- Ambulance Driver McLaughlin
Arrive 6:45AM
Shown photo of yard- identifies with laser pointer location of body- white on white I can’t see it
Cross up to break
Mounds of snow in area but he wasn’t covered in snow
Laceration or contusion over right eye- contusion
Both eyes swollen shut
Lacerations on nose- not seen but bleeding coming from nostrils
Swollen abdomen- no injuries or bruising noted

Completed in Another Post

ME states body temp 80F in report
Does not describe frostbite, Signs of Lividity- blood pooling

Question-
Do Paramedics measure actual core temp OR report as < 80F- Stage 3 Hypothermia to ER?
If JOK was exposed to subfreezing temps for over 5 hours- How could core temp be 80F??


IMO
 
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Sorry for the double post, but hoping to get a serious answer this time….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

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If you want a technical answer

1. The 1162 techstream data from the EDR module was not contested in either T1 or T2. I think you could fairly describe it as an accepted fact, because to contest it, you'd have to take it up with Toyota.

2. The recovery of the user data from the SD card following a BERLA extraction was also uncontested by the defence in this case (user data included ignition on/off timestamps, odometer reads, phone logs). ditto - take it up with BERLA and Toyota.

As such it appears to be implicitly accepted in the defence case, that the vehicle drove at 24mph in reverse at 34F but;

a) the defence dispute clock variance between Johns IOS clock and the Lexus clock by some small number of seconds

b) the defence dispute where exactly the reversing ocurred within some number of feet.

I think you see this in their case. ARCCA would not recreate a reversing accident at 24mph if the defence case was this speed never occurred.

IMO
 
Why pull down to the flag pole and not in the driveway?
Right and why is the question, crucial area of interest that the person NEEDED to be there, right there where JOK was found a few hours later. Car not there at first plow pass...then it was. It was driven to that spot from whoever owns it for a reason is the thing. Reason Lucky the plower was on the stand both trials. NO JOK at that site on Lucky's first pass, then car was there later, then JOK found the few hours later tops. KEY points. IMO
 
Interesting. Perhaps the defense opted not to have ARCCA address key cycles since they’re actually having to pay out of pocket for these costs vs draining it off of hardworking taxpayers. They invested $50k vs the CWs pilfering nearly $400k off of taxpayers for the ridiculous paint experiment.

There is no way to dispute it. Of course Toyota built a diagnostics system that tells you to the second when the trigger event occurred. In trial 1 it was simply the case that the user data was not recovered, and the user data includes the day and time and odometer info for each key cycle. I think somehow people got the idea that the EDR can never be reconciled to the actual Lexus clock due to that data being missing in trial 1 - but of course Toyota would not build such a system. DiSogra agreed on the stand. If he could have contested any of this he would have.
 
Why pull down to the flag pole and not in the driveway?
This I believe was not the time her bf came to get her, it may not be HIS car, there are a few amongst the family and friends. THere is the time said that he did come to pick her up but I forget it myself. He would of gone to driveway to pick her up. It is all about the time as no, he would not of had her walk down to the car. IMO
 
The Judge has allowed extensive cross examination and impeachment of witnesses on cross all trial - not just for Mr Brennan.

Brennan examined Dr Wolfe for less than 2 hours IIRC

Alessi and AJ had Yuri and Burgess on the stand for days.
 
The Judge has allowed extensive cross examination and impeachment of witnesses on cross all trial - not just for Mr Brennan.

Brennan examined Dr Wolfe for less than 2 hours IIRC

Alessi and AJ had Yuri and Burgess on the stand for days.
One only needs to count that matter of sustains granted for the CW as compared to the sustains given to the defense to see the judge's impartiality here. There has never been an equal playing field for this case. Imo
 
I’ve come around to thinking that all of this started because of KR’s texts with BH. She was hurt after the NYE trip and she and JO were arguing a lot. She picks BH as a diversion . He’s like ‘whoa’, where did this comes from? He’s wary but on the other hand, can’t believe his luck. After 2 weeks of texting, they meet in person at his humble abode in Boston (Roxbury neighborhood?). She is there less than 2 hours and they text when she gets home at 11:13. ‘“I made it home.- Thoughts?- No, you?’” He reaches out next day, she cracks wise and then ghosts him. What the heck happened? Did they hook up or did something else turn KR off?
It’s possible that they hooked up, it wasn’t fireworks for KR and she decided not to continue with BH. OR, BH wasn’t comfortable hooking up with the live in GF of a friend/acquaintance and gave her somewhat of an ultimatum? BH wanted a shot at a relationship, not just an affair that would likely come to light bringing a shitload if unwanted drama and attention. Whatever the situation, days go by and no more fun and flirty texts from KR. Morning of the 28th, KR and JO in an argument most of the day. KR is badgering him when he clearly cannot talk on the phone and doesn’t want to. If she really likes BH, why didn’t she invite him to Mansfield to hang out during the storm? JO had family and kids at the house and wouldn’t be dropping by. But, NO, she drove to Canton to go drinking and be JO’s designated driver. And that night JO is affectionate and in a good mood at McCarthy’s. Earlier in the day CA invites JO to Waterfall so the couple enters that bar around 11….

iIRC , she (CA) lived with BF Tristan and he left early to go sleep. She planned on staying overnight at parents but apparently changed her mind and called BF to pick her up sometime after 1pm. IIRC, this was from T1 testimony.
Yes, you’re spot on regarding BH’s response to KR’s initial texts - he was like “you’re sure you’ve got the right guy? Are you serious or is this some sort of prank?”
And then at the very end - she texts him “John’s dead” and we get complete silence from BH. Probably because he was too busy calling his lawyer….bizarre. IMO, he knew that anything he said at that point could get him into trouble.
 
Temp -3C 26 F but the wind is between 26 km/h and 43 km/h, the apparent temp is 14F -10C

Hard to imagine body warmth staying that high.

Esp. when the phone he was lying on was so much colder (as indicated by the battery temp). Why wasn't the phone warmer if he'd been laying on it all night and somehow never being colder than 80*?
 
do you have those numbers to hand?

One only needs to count that matter of sustains granted for the CW as compared to the sustains given to the defense to see the judge's impartiality here. There has never been an equal playing field for this case. Imo
Maybe this is what AJ and his team are doing by building a record in my opinion.
 
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