MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #33 Retrial

[missy1974]

Welcher did have some pics that should 34 feet forward and 53 feet back, but she has to get to 29 mph (at end of but wonder how much of that is wheel spin. Problem was he basically wouldn't provide any other details, as the police didn't record things, so we don't have enough details.

Where was JoK precisely? We have in testimony 6 to 8 feet, or 10 feet etc but issue is police didn't actually properly measure his location, nor was the pieces of plastic properly located.
The ARCCA reconstruction at high speeds does show a debris area, but it was not more than 1.5m or 4 feet from the car. Where the debris here whilst not precisely located it was spread over a larger area.

I have read anywhere from 6-10 feet from the road Malleboy... but who knows because nothing was properly documented.

All of Whelcher's calculations of distance is when the vehicle was actually moving. There was wheel spin, but it didn't factor into the distance.

So 34 feet forward minimum because remember, it only records 5 seconds before and 5 seconds after.

When the data was captured, the vehicle was going 13.67 mph and was decreasing.

It stopped, wheels spin.

Then it reversed 34 ft + another 53 ft, for a total of 87 ft in reverse but is still going in reverse at 23.61 mph with no braking at all. So it has to be 87+ feet.

There is no indication that she went on to the lawn, didn't hit the curb, nothing under the SUV suggesting that happened (no scratches/scrapes/grass). She didn't hit the mailbox or a vehicle parked near the mailbox.

Also note.. that the road has a curve in it too.

I just don't understand what the CW is suggesting happened at this point? he was in the middle of the road? But then how did he end up where he did? What speed was she going? Because we all saw the tests ARCCA did. It had to be over 10 mph, right?

Can't go too slow, no damage to the tail light or very little damage, if faster then 24 mph... surely there would be more damage to her vehicle?

It is really hard to 'make it work'.





(photo is from google maps)

 

[Malleeboy]

But then you have the witnesses who saw her sitting in her car alone, with the dome light on.

Surely a belligerent man walking around yelling and provoking her would have been noticed?

MOO

I know it is unlikely, trying to steelman the cw position.

Maybe he walked off passed the shrubs near the flagpole, or across to the officer across the road house, then came back.

 

[Malleeboy]

I have read anywhere from 6-10 feet from the road Malleboy... but who knows because nothing was properly documented.

All of Whelcher's calculations of distance is when the vehicle was actually moving. There was wheel spin, but it didn't factor into the distance.

So 34 feet forward minimum because remember, it only records 5 seconds before and 5 seconds after.

When the data was captured, the vehicle was going 13.67 mph and was decreasing.

It stopped, wheels spin.

Then it reversed 34 ft + another 53 ft, for a total of 87 ft in reverse but is still going in reverse at 23.61 mph with no braking at all. So it has to be 87+ feet.

There is no indication that she went on to the lawn, didn't hit the curb, nothing under the SUV suggesting that happened (no scratches/scrapes/grass). She didn't hit the mailbox or a vehicle parked near the mailbox.

Also note.. that the road has a curve in it too.

I just don't understand what the CW is suggesting happened at this point? he was in the middle of the road? But then how did he end up where he did? What speed was she going? Because we all saw the tests ARCCA did. It had to be over 10 mph, right?

Can't go too slow, no damage to the tail light or very little damage, if faster then 24 mph... surely there would be more damage to her vehicle?

It is really hard to 'make it work'.





(photo is from google maps)


View attachment 593239

I hadn't notice how curved the road was, has anyone checked if Karen Read has trick car driving training, some feat to go that fast on a curved road. No evidence she went up onto the nature strip or front yard, yet alone the berm which would have been difficult to cross accurately.

 

[Soulmagent]

I know it is unlikely, trying to steelman the cw position.

Maybe he walked off passed the shrubs near the flagpole, or across to the officer across the road house, then came back.

He may have , I think if I was going to throw up in my panties ,I may require privacy in some shrubs.

Not to be a pain or anything but there has to be an untold thing somewhere.

 

[missy1974]

I hadn't notice how curved the road was, has anyone checked if Karen Read has trick car driving training, some feat to go that fast on a curved road. No evidence she went up onto the nature strip or front yard, yet alone the berm which would have been difficult to cross accurately.

Exactly. I just can't picture it at all. ARCCA did their tests in a parking lot and went straight back and still couldn't exactly hit it right. I have said for awhile, that KR must have had some serious driving skills.

 

[Angelwatch]

I hadn't notice how curved the road was, has anyone checked if Karen Read has trick car driving training, some feat to go that fast on a curved road. No evidence she went up onto the nature strip or front yard, yet alone the berm which would have been difficult to cross accurately.

According to the car data, her steering wheel was nearly straight while reversing. The CW’s theory is simply not possible, IMO.

 

[missy1974]

According to the car data, her steering wheel was nearly straight while reversing. The CW’s theory is simply not possible, IMO.

Yep, I forgot that .. that curve in the road makes it even more unlikely IMO

 

[Warwick7]

They had had a fight about BH, and he was yelling at her (whichno one heard) maybe daring her to hit him??

At the intersection RN's car group let KR's car go first. When they pull up to 34F they were literally seconds behind KR. Then parked right behind KR. They even testified there were two in Karen's car.

They each testified there was no jeep.

When they arrived they saw no body on the lawn. When the pulled around her to leave, they could one woman with the dome light on.

 

[Malleeboy]

According to the car data, her steering wheel was nearly straight while reversing. The CW’s theory is simply not possible, IMO.

That makes sense about the questions about going onto the lawn in cross to Welcher.

 

[jepop]

I hadn't notice how curved the road was, has anyone checked if Karen Read has trick car driving training, some feat to go that fast on a curved road. No evidence she went up onto the nature strip or front yard, yet alone the berm which would have been difficult to cross accurately.

RBBM. Well, isn't it obvious? As the jury will no doubt have noted, anything is possible according to Welcher's expert opinion... so maybe they will speculate that Karen activated a hidden lexus hover function on the curve, allowing her to continue in a straight line to where JOK was waiting with his arm stuck out like a hitchhiker.

Tracing this idea back to make it logical, the jury need only speculate a wee bit more to the effect Burgess must have forgotten to testify to the possible hover function data being potentially and possibly destroyed during the chip removal. Jmo

 

[Malleeboy]

At the intersection RN's car group let KR's car go first. When they pull up to 34F they were literally seconds behind KR. Then parked right behind KR. They even testified there were two in Karen's car.

They each testified there was no jeep.

When they arrived they saw no body on the lawn. When the pulled around her to leave, they could one woman with the dome light on.

Two options either he has
1) Quickly gone to the house
2) Quickly gone to the shrubs (vomit? surely not for a "bush wee"?

Just had a left field thought, jumped in BH car and taken off together before Nagle's arrived, which sounds insane but it does get the jeep with snow plow out of the way.

 

[Warwick7]

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[Warwick7]

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[Tortoise]

RBBM. Well, isn't it obvious? As the jury will no doubt have noted, anything is possible according to Welcher's expert opinion... so maybe they will speculate that Karen activated a hidden lexus hover function on the curve, allowing her to continue in a straight line to where JOK was waiting with his arm stuck out like a hitchhiker.

Tracing this idea back to make it logical, the jury need only speculate a wee bit more to the effect Burgess must have forgotten to testify to the possible hover function data being potentially and possibly destroyed during the chip removal. Jmo

It was Rescue Randy who had his arm stuck out straight like a hitchhiker:

visual @ 6.19.33

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Dr Welcher's arm was by his side, flexed at the elbow, glass in hand:

visual @ 6.06.03

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Also the Lexus did not drive straight in reverse. There was a slight leftwards steer.
(5.20.28 in Dr Welcher's testimony linked)

 

[PamCake]

I have been looking at tail lights too lol

This post is a good reminder that not everyone has personal experience with some of the aspects of this case. The temperature, the snow plow, the light snow, the blizzard, driving in that weather, and in your case even driveways/garages.

I hope all the jurors understand all if they are from the area.

Personally, without knowing the temperature leading up to this blizzard, I am not convinced the ground was frozen, it doesn't freeze like that in one day. The fact that when the snow first started falling, it made the roads wet, tells me it was not frozen. JMO

The good thing about the jurors is that they're all from Norfolk county.

 

[mrjitty]

It was Rescue Randy who had his arm stuck out straight like a hitchhiker:

visual @ 6.19.33

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Dr Welcher's arm was by his side, flexed at the elbow, glass in hand:

visual @ 6.06.03

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Also the Lexus did not drive straight in reverse. There was a slight leftwards steer.
(5.20.28 in Dr Welcher's testimony linked)

For me the most obvious indicator of guilt at this stage is that the Nagel eyeball+text testimony corroborates the Waze data for a 12.24 arrival time. John's final 36 steps do not start until after 12.31 on his phone time. This means Karen is lying about waiting for him. The data proves he never left the vehicle until 7 minutes later, at which point Karen drives forward, reverses at 24mph, and then we know she must drive straight to 1 Meadows. Then she beings calling him even before she gets back. None of that data is contested by the defence.

All of that is completely incompatible with her video statements. For whatever reason, she is clearly lying.

This is also implicitly conceded in the ARCCA testing. Dr Wolfe would not include video of a lexus hitting a crash test dummy at 24mph in reverse if the defence could in any way challenge that the vehicle was reversing at high speed within seconds of John's final movements. Instead they are reduced to arguing about a clock variance of a few seconds.

MOO

 

[Malleeboy]

Also the Lexus did not drive straight in reverse. There was a slight leftwards steer.
(5.20.28 in Dr Welcher's testimony linked)

Have you tried reversing at that speed, when drunk in snow, not easy to make slight adjustments/

 

[Malleeboy]

For me the most obvious indicator of guilt at this stage is that the Nagel eyeball+text testimony corroborates the Waze data for a 12.24 arrival time. John's final 36 steps do not start until after 12.31 on his phone time. This means Karen is lying about waiting for him. The data proves he never left the vehicle until 7 minutes later, at which point Karen drives forward, reverses at 24mph, and then we know she must drive straight to 1 Meadows. Then she beings calling him even before she gets back. None of that data is contested by the defence.

All of that is completely incompatible with her video statements. For whatever reason, she is clearly lying.

This is also implicitly conceded in the ARCCA testing. Dr Wolfe would not include video of a lexus hitting a crash test dummy at 24mph in reverse if the defence could in any way challenge that the vehicle was reversing at high speed within seconds of John's final movements. Instead they are reduced to arguing about a clock variance of a few seconds.

MOO

Except for 3 people not seeing John in the car, the around 10 people who didn't see John in the snow, the fact that 3 doctors have been able to confirm he was hit by a car, the car taillight inner plastic to break would take a very high speed impact which would cause far more damage to the car.

That is without the absurdly implausible 6 but dial nd but hangs without vmail, that Jen Mccabe then tried tom delete from her phone. People in the house having but dial conversations.

 

[Tortoise]

For me the most obvious indicator of guilt at this stage is that the Nagel eyeball+text testimony corroborates the Waze data for a 12.24 arrival time. John's final 36 steps do not start until after 12.31 on his phone time. This means Karen is lying about waiting for him. The data proves he never left the vehicle until 7 minutes later, at which point Karen drives forward, reverses at 24mph, and then we know she must drive straight to 1 Meadows. Then she beings calling him even before she gets back. None of that data is contested by the defence.

All of that is completely incompatible with her video statements. For whatever reason, she is clearly lying.

This is also implicitly conceded in the ARCCA testing. Dr Wolfe would not include video of a lexus hitting a crash test dummy at 24mph in reverse if the defence could in any way challenge that the vehicle was reversing at high speed within seconds of John's final movements. Instead they are reduced to arguing about a clock variance of a few seconds.

MOO

And she knows he never made it inside the house, because at 12.59 am she says 'nobody knows where the fk you are', without asking anyone in the house. MOO

 

[pcrum12]

Karen first parked by the driveway. Per Ryan's testimony, he was the driver that pulled up just after her, behind her. THEN she pulled up about a car length, probably because she saw them behind her. I think as soon as she first pulled up by the driveway, John jumped out and headed for the front door. Ryan and crew would not have seen JOhn approach the house as there were cars in the driveway which would have block their view. 90ft. Into the house.

Somehow, my post didn't include the original message I was responding to. I was speaking of TM coming to pick up Caitlyn. Someone mentioned he had a Ford Edge also, and Lucky saw that Ford Edge parked on the street near the flagpole. So I wondered if it was TM's Edge; why wouldn't he just pull into the driveway to pick her up?