MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #34 Retrial

[anglolawyer]

Harping on some more about this dang business with the hoodie, the defence could have objected at once for lack of foundation, forcing Brennan to set it out & then kneecapping him when it turned out there was none and this would all have been seen by the jury!

 

[Angelwatch]

I wish Dr Russell would have “held her own” with Brennan a little more. She let him push her around a bit when she could have been more like laposata. I could tell she wanted to be but was afraid of cannone

I love Dr Russell. I hope she connects with Dr Laposata and they can have a professional chit chat about those abrasions that are so obviously dog bites. Dr Russell could learn from watching Dr Laposata on how to handle a really tough cross examination. Laposata was amazing. Didn’t give an inch.

 

[Lost mittens]

The hypothermia segment was a train wreck

i really like Dr laposada and think she did a good job in all areas EXCEPT the hypothermia.

Loved when she said she saw pics of the garage. Loved that she “fought back”

but did she say “Bull-**i*”?

I was driving and listening and couldn’t tell. But i started laughing my toosh off because she reminds me of my mother-in-law born and raised in Brooklyn. She’s a pistol in a sweet way. Little modest lady who comes across harmless, but super super smart and SLY AS A FOX when she needs to be. She even looks like her.

Yes! She said “bull” and then covered her mouth, sort of like she caught herself and stopped because she knew it probably wasn’t appropriate for this situation. But then said it anyways right after that! She’s so funny, I loved her attitude.

 

[lohrtabitha]

Would you love to see small animals tortured as well ? I thought websleuths members had some integrity and would maintain respect for victims. But small hearts and minds seem to dominate.

Except these victims have treated an innocent woman horribly who did nothing but great things for John and the children A woman who bailed the brother Okeefe out of jail and paid for his lawyer when he was drunk driving and wrecked his car.A woman who watched over the children and gave them love. A woman who couldn't even properly mourn the loss of her partner nor attend his funeral. An innocent woman who has lost everything because of corrupt LE and their families. All one has to do is open their eyes before they open their mouth. Moo

 

[lohrtabitha]

The hypothermia segment was a train wreck

i really like Dr laposada and think she did a good job in all areas EXCEPT the hypothermia.

Loved when she said she saw pics of the garage. Loved that she “fought back”

but did she say “Bull-**i*”?

I was driving and listening and couldn’t tell. But i started laughing my toosh off because she reminds me of my mother-in-law born and raised in Brooklyn. She’s a pistol in a sweet way. Little modest lady who comes across harmless, but super super smart and SLY AS A FOX when she needs to be. She even looks like her.

Her knowledge of medicine outweighs all of the others by far in my opinion.

 

[AngTxGal]

I love that he keeps asking about the details of the car and why she wasn't asking about the details and she responds that "he wasn't hit by the car so it's not important!!!" LOL!!!

La Posada vs Brennan
It is so entertaining to watch a mature professional expert woman who looks like a grandmother school a much younger attorney who tries to discredit her 40+ year reputation.
When push comes to shove- this isn’t her first rodeo. How do we think she got to where she is?

IF ONLY Dr. Lapasada had explained to the jury that differential diagnosis implies explorations of possible explanations without bias- but not waste time in areas that are NOT POSSIBLE.

For this reason she did NOT spend time exploring the possibility that the wounds were caused by
strangulation,
gun shot,
stabbing,
electrocution,
fire,
or drowning,
because ALL of these would be as inconsistent with JOKs wounds, just as VEHICLE COLLISION.
Doing so would negate her education and experience of 40+ years.

She is not new to sparring as you can tell. This is exactly the kind of Mom Brennan needed!

IMO

 

[SteveS]

Karen Read requested to add Attorney Mark Bederow to her legal team. In a brief ruling, Judge Cannone ruled against allowing Bederow to join the defense-- citing a conflict of interest with no evidence. Given the gag rule in place, I'm grateful that Attorney Bederow opines on the case since others are prohibited from discussing the case.

"with no evidence" -- Actually, this is one ruling in which JudgeB ruled fairly and got it right. And, while it would be nice for KR to have the legal mind of Bederow on staff, adding him to the team created potential pitfalls for both KR and TB. (Bederow is TB's attorney IIUC.) JudgeB's ruling avoided them.

BTW - KR couldn't get Bederow's help in an informal way, because unless she has actually hired him, there is NO attorney-client protection for what he might learn. You don't want to open that door where he's being put on the stand in some Brennan fishing expedition for information.

Anyhow - The conflict of interest was factual! It stemmed from the reality that the cw had charges looming against both KR and TB. Their actions intersected. It's possible that one or the other might need to say 'They did that, and I wasn't involved at all' for something or another.

AT THE SAME TIME, the cw wanted to link KR and TB together, claiming they had coordinated illegal actions (supposed witness intimidation by TB at the request of KR). JudgeB wouldn't let them have the same attorney, saying each needed their own independent attorney in dealing with the nuances of such charges - who did what, why, who knew, etc. Each being able to work for their own best interest would be vital when one or the other was on trial for such actions. That was 100% the right ruling.

That separation of attorneys worked liked it was supposed to, in fact (and in a way that the cw didn't like when it got there). Early in the KR case pre T2, the cw tried bring TB into the KR case, to force testimony/evidence from TB that supposedly was relevant to the KR trial. It was a classic Brennan fishing expedition on the flimsiest of pretenses and probable falsehoods, as always, but it was quashed legally because, with TB and KR fully separate and independent, TB's team asserted that the cw was just trying to use the occasion to violate TB's rights to refuse to testify against himself re his own case. Not having the same attorney made that separation very obvious and JudgeB had to rule for TB (which also helped KR, because it shut the door on that fishing expedition where Brennan had hoped to create side issues to later make KR look bad to the jury).

 

[mrjitty]

"with no evidence" -- Actually, this is one ruling in which JudgeB ruled fairly and got it right. And, while it would be nice for KR to have the legal mind of Bederow on staff, adding him to the team created potential pitfalls for both KR and TB. (Bederow is TB's attorney IIUC.) JudgeB's ruling avoided them.

BTW - KR couldn't get Bederow's help in an informal way, because unless she has actually hired him, there is NO attorney-client protection for what he might learn. You don't want to open that door where he's being put on the stand in some Brennan fishing expedition for information.

Anyhow - The conflict of interest was factual! It stemmed from the reality that the cw had charges looming against both KR and TB. Their actions intersected. It's possible that one or the other might need to say 'They did that, and I wasn't involved at all' for something or another.

AT THE SAME TIME, the cw wanted to link KR and TB together, claiming they had coordinated illegal actions (supposed witness intimidation by TB at the request of KR). JudgeB wouldn't let them have the same attorney, saying each needed their own independent attorney in dealing with the nuances of such charges - who did what, why, who knew, etc. Each being able to work for their own best interest would be vital when one or the other was on trial for such actions. That was 100% the right ruling.

That separation of attorneys worked liked it was supposed to, in fact (and in a way that the cw didn't like when it got there). Early in the KR case pre T2, the cw tried bring TB into the KR case, to force testimony/evidence from TB that supposedly was relevant to the KR trial. It was a classic Brennan fishing expedition on the flimsiest of pretenses and probable falsehoods, as always, but it was quashed legally because, with TB and KR fully separate and independent, TB's team asserted that the cw was just trying to use the occasion to violate TB's rights to refuse to testify against himself re his own case. Not having the same attorney made that separation very obvious and JudgeB had to rule for TB (which also helped KR, because it shut the door on that fishing expedition where Brennan had hoped to create side issues to later make KR look bad to the jury).

I agree Steve. One obvious example. TB will have considered whether to plead out before Karen's trial, in which case there is an obvious conflict for Bederow acting on both cases.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

If they saved it (a possibility) they badly miscalculated & also allowed their witness to be embarrassed. From the flustered way the application to dismiss was made, faffing around with the docs etc. I think they just missed it.

i think you are correct.

 

[jepop]

I wish Dr Russell would have “held her own” with Brennan a little more. She let him push her around a bit when she could have been more like laposata. I could tell she wanted to be but was afraid of cannone

I can totally see what you mean. Though I think Dr Russell did well in her own way. Haha Dr Russell " I did it myyy way". She had some spunk Dr Russell style!

I read another of your comments about Dr L having Brennan's number and I'm with you on that! That phrase was at the forefront of my mind during the recross. She's had past dealings with him and knows what's what! Jmo

 

[mrjitty]

I have no faith in Cellebrite data. I have worked with network packet analysis tools (eg SnifferPro). The oddity is still in the data, he just chose to remove it. His software does no real analysis, he is just scrapping data and guessing what it means. Wiffin sells his product to police forces, he has a financial interest to tweak the output.,

However, I just have no idea what to do with the data, unless from Apple gets involved, we will never really know what happened.

Just to note Cellebrite is a large company with over 1000 employees and subsidiaries around the world. So it's not as if Whiffin personally tweaked the output - Cellebrite engineers made an update. I agree he is just pulling reports and interpreting them but it is also pretty clear that the KnowledgeC and web databases did have the timing for this search and it was in the 6am hour. Green could have discovered this himself in the first place, but just went with a headline output without looking deeper. The defence could have had Green redo his analysis or supplement it, or get a new analysts to back up what Green said.

The FBI investigation will also have been all over this data, so I think it's safe to say it never happened.

Cellebrite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

It wasn't a complicated question yet Brennan had to ask her three times and the judge had to instruct her to listen to the question before she would answer him.

Turns out she finally agreed it was possible for a person to be alive for two hours and have a body temperature of 80 degrees after a total of six hours in sub zero temperatures.

5.35.14

The jury will never realise that the defence have completely changed their theory of the case on this to fit the battery evidence in this trial.

In the version we've heard for years including in Karen's documentary, John is fatally injured in a fight in the cellar, then kept in the cellar for 2-3 hours, before being put out to die in the snow (Hos long), before Jen begins the process of fitting Karen up.

Now suddenly John goes in the garage instead of the house (direct conflict to Karen's interview), gets attacked by a dog and falls over and dies in 15 minutes, then for some reason people in the house decide to put him out by the flagpole, with his phone magically moving there with no steps logged. Then Jen - who didn't search Hos long - decides to fit Karen up.

None of this fits with how Karen herself narrates the dropoff at 34F. The following vehicle never saw John get out at the driveway before Karen pulls up to the flagpole.

Nor does his data support getting out of the driveway at 12.24, unless he stood motionless shivering in the driveway from 12.24-12.32 before going in the garage? While Karen is reversing at high speed out front?

We understand the defence can present different versions between trials, or even different versions in the same trial - but I don't think i've ever seen something so blatantly reverse engineered and inconsistent with the defendant's public claims.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

The jury will never realise that the defence have completely changed their theory of the case on this to fit the battery evidence in this trial.

In the version we've heard for years including in Karen's documentary, John is fatally injured in a fight in the cellar, then kept in the cellar for 2-3 hours, before being put out to die in the snow (Hos long), before Jen begins the process of fitting Karen up.

Now suddenly John goes in the garage instead of the house (direct conflict to Karen's interview), gets attacked by a dog and falls over and dies in 15 minutes, then for some reason people in the house decide to put him out by the flagpole, with his phone magically moving there with no steps logged. Then Jen - who didn't search Hos long - decides to fit Karen up.

None of this fits with how Karen herself narrates the dropoff at 34F. The following vehicle never saw John get out at the driveway before Karen pulls up to the flagpole.

Nor does his data support getting out of the driveway at 12.24, unless he stood motionless shivering in the driveway from 12.24-12.32 before going in the garage? While Karen is reversing at high speed out front?

We understand the defence can present different versions between trials, or even different versions in the same trial - but I don't think i've ever seen something so blatantly reverse engineered and inconsistent with the defendant's public claims.

MOO

Yeah, last year Jen searched 'hos long...', even though John wasn't dying in the cold, and now John jumps out of the Lexus at the driveway while it's still travelling at 15 mph, not recording any steps, so he must have flown into that garage. And then his phone magically stops moving and lands in the snow by the flagpole, where he will end up on top of it, the same few seconds Karen is reversing up dangerously just down the street where she took a wrong turn. And she didn't break her taillight at Meadows, but she shows Kerry and Jen it's broken, so wherever she broke it Proctor must have discovered it and put the pieces in his pocket to plant at Fairview, before he got there, to frame Karen, while Karen was conveniently saying she hit him. And even now says she expected to find him there.

And Karen is coincidentally mad with John, and tells the paramedics her last conversation with him was an argument. Couldn't happen right, because they were on video only a few hours earlier all lovey dovey. What a crock. MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Yeah, last year Jen searched 'hos long...', even though John wasn't dying in the cold, and now John jumps out of the Lexus at the driveway while it's still travelling at 15 mph, not recording any steps, so he must have flown into that garage. And then his phone magically stops moving and lands in the snow by the flagpole, where he will end up on top of it, the same few seconds Karen is reversing up dangerously just down the street where she took a wrong turn. And she didn't break her taillight at Meadows, but she shows Kerry and Jen it's broken, so wherever she broke it Proctor must have discovered it and put the pieces in his pocket to plant at Fairview, before he got there, to frame Karen, while Karen was conveniently saying she hit him. And even now says she expected to find him there.

And Karen is coincidentally mad with John, and tells the paramedics her last conversation with him was an argument. Couldn't happen right, because they were on video only a few hours earlier all lovey dovey. What a crock. MOO

For me the real strength of this defence team is how well they've controlled the media narrative in general despite an objectively much worse version of the trial for them.

For instance, I tuned in to the discussion between Bederow and Tragos weeks back to get some indication as to how the defence was going to address the 1162 issue, and instead they simply didn't discuss it.

Back on 15 May, before Burgess testified, i posted that Alessi had quietly conceded 1162 and the high speed reverse outside Fairview. Now I can say i was right - yet this fact has barely penetrated - despite it conceding the big half of the charging language!

Maybe it's a hangover from Trial 1, where so many facts not in evidence this time (e.g the tow truck theory), are somehow still in play.

<shrugs>

MOO

 

[justwannahelp]

Yes! She said “bull” and then covered her mouth, sort of like she caught herself and stopped because she knew it probably wasn’t appropriate for this situation. But then said it anyways right after that! She’s so funny, I loved her attitude.

I found the clip of it and rewatched. Never has bull**it been said so adorably

 

[mrjitty]

And she didn't break her taillight at Meadows, but she shows Kerry and Jen it's broken, so wherever she broke it Proctor must have discovered it and put the pieces in his pocket to plant at Fairview, before he got there, to frame Karen, while Karen was conveniently saying she hit him.

RSBM

I was a bit shocked that Dr Wolfe apparently didn't do any work on the Lexus/Traverse incident. The defence has to have that!

IMO

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

I was a bit shocked that Dr Wolfe apparently didn't do any work on the Lexus/Traverse incident. The defence has to have that!

IMO

Probably all in the Signal encrypted messages.

He said he communicated with Read lawyer Alan Jackson via Signal, an encrypted app, at the defense’s request.
Wolfe told Brennan that was the first time he used Signal to communicate with a client.

Crash analyst testified about John O’Keefe’s arm injuries in Karen Read retrial. Here’s how the day unfolded. - The Boston Globe

Crash analyst Daniel Wolfe testified on whether Karen Read's SUV could have struck John O'Keefe in Friday's testimony.

www.bostonglobe.com

IMO

 

[justwannahelp]

Her knowledge of medicine outweighs all of the others by far in my opinion.

She was great! The wishkenewsy spots
(i misspelled) commonly found in stomach lining of hypothermic patients was a great new info to “chew on”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1752928X13003168

96% hypothermic patients at death have. Very good to know!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1752928X13003168

And i relooked at his head wound and it’s pretty deep if you look very closely. It doesn’t like like the skin split from falling backwards. It DOES look like he hit a “ridge”. I’ve been thinking maybe the edge of a wooden table but now i want to know WHAT is in that garage?

 

[anglolawyer]

She was great! The wishkenewsy spots
(i misspelled) commonly found in stomach lining of hypothermic patients was a great new info to “chew on”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1752928X13003168

96% hypothermic patients at death have. Very good to know!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1752928X13003168

And i relooked at his head wound and it’s pretty deep if you look very closely. It doesn’t like like the skin split from falling backwards. It DOES look like he hit a “ridge”. I’ve been thinking maybe the edge of a wooden table but now i want to know WHAT is in that garage?

Baseball bat? Edge of stair?

 

[nightowl1975]

RSBM

I was a bit shocked that Dr Wolfe apparently didn't do any work on the Lexus/Traverse incident. The defence has to have that!

IMO

One possibility is the defense doesn’t have unlimited taxpayer money to work with here. The defense paid ARCCA $50K for the work done, plus they’ll be on the hook for travel & lodging expenses yet again. If they set out to have ARCCA prove even more, that’s going to cost even more.