VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #35 Retrial

[AngTxGal]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

I listened to both trials. I have a strong opinion, and if I were sitting on the jury, I'd vote guilty of at least leaving the scene of an accident that caused a death. I believe the evidence of the "black box" from the SUV. I believe the health data from John's phone. I believe the temperature of the cell phone. I believe the defendant when she stated in interviews that she drank maybe 5 drinks, that she possibly clipped him, that she may have hit him. I believe the last steps JOK made were the few steps he took after getting out of the SUV. I did not see evidence that he walked to the house, entered the house, took a glass from inside the house, got into a life-ending fight inside the house. I believe her when she said in voice mails that she "F*ing hated" him. I believe the witnesses who testified that said KR said "John's dead" before going to look for him. I believe the witnesses who testified that she said "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. I found them credible. I believe the defense did everything every high-paid defense team is paid to do if the client is guilty, try to confuse the jury - bamboozle them with b***s***. Do I believe in some grand conspiracy that a houseful of people, firefighters, EMS personnel are all in on a cover-up? No. Do I believe there was an officer who said some really crappy things in texts about KR? Yes. Do I believe she intentionally hit JOK with her car to attempt to and succeed in killing JOK? No. But I believe she was culpable in his death. And now that the second trial has concluded, I can say that's my opinion. Not that my opinion means a hill of beans to anyone but me.

If people are not welcome to share opinions that may differ from others, and support them with the evidence they have heard- that the mission Tricia planned for Websleuths has been lost.

I agree with most all of what you have said, but the taillight evidence sure looks to me like someone helped create evidence to make a case firmer than an accident would have been.

A person can bump another person with their car and cause them to fall down without leaving an injury to the car or the person.

I don’t think any of his wounds are consistent with being hit hard by a car, and I don’t think the damage to the car was caused by his body.
The story inferred by the defense is not the only story that is possible.

I think reality sits between the two stories of the prosecution and defense

IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

It is very rare for a defendant to testify, and it never goes well, innocent or not.

I agree that for someone to have done so many interviews with the public, it seems odd that she didn’t speak for herself during the trial.
My guess is she paid her attorneys for their expertise and tried to listen to it, but not always. I doubt they were ok with her speaking so much in public.

If I was innocent I would do everything I could to stay out of prison, and it would be terribly difficult to sit there with his family to my left and know that I had been a part of the family and now was viewed as his killer.

She is a very strong minded and emotionally strong woman, and sometimes women with that kind of strength are characterized terribly by others. That is probably why she did not testify on her own behalf- it could be taken wrong and sink what appears to be a winning case.

IMO

 

[missy1974]

You know, this is an excellent point! CW had the opportunity to use ARCCA's services since they had the original report from the department of justice but the CW chose not to call them during Trials 1 or 2. Hank told the jury that ARCCA also does tech work just like Aperture does AND YET the CW hired Aperture instead of ARCCA to do the tech stream work. Hank is such a little little man.
MOO

I think the defense couldn't afford to have ARCCA do more. Most trials I watch, experts, if they do any testing, looking at data, etc, it is all discoverable (hence the reason Welcher didn't do more, so he wouldn't have to explain his results lol). So I don't even think ARCCA looked at it (which is a shame haha).

I think the defense got some really good advice from some of the 1st trial jurors and even the public in general for this trial. Don't bog it down with stuff that can be argued either way, or call all the people in the house (although, it was the CW that called them all last trial), go with the more definitive science/med testimony, because if he wasn't hit with a car, the rest is just fluff, it isn't their job to figure out what happened.

All JMO

 

[Dawookie]

Sure, push them off of your carpet if they are vomiting drunk. I buy that if it isn’t cold outside.
But-
He didn't’ seem vomiting drunk on the footage at the Waterfall.
I don’t know about his drinking history did he typically get falling down vomiting drunk?
If JOK did tend to get that drunk- why on earth did the family think he should get custody of his sister’s two kids?

I can’t speak to what people do in colder climates with vomiting drunks- do they move them outside at night?
Probably not?

IMO

But if the head injury causes the vomiting rather than being drunk and the head injury happened inside the house, meaning blood evidence as well as the vomit, it would
mean moving the body away from the evidence and making it seem like something else happened.

From personal experience, head injuries bleed like there's no tomorrow. IIRC there was very little blood found outside in the snow, did they find evidence of the vomit on his shirt outside or underneath him? Where did all the blood from two separate wounds and vomit go?

That combined with no search of the house, the basement being remodeled for the second time in 3 years along with Chloe being "rehomed" makes for some damning coincidences

 

[HarmonyE.]

Great question, I’m not sure he ever made it into the house and there are many steps outside that home. The possibilities are many when you are actually looking for explanations for what happeend that fit with the evidence.

The defense team just came up with one-

He could have hit his head on any one of the multiple steps outside, I suppose but I don’t know how far a person with such an injury could stagger before falling down.

IMO

There was medical testimony that the injury was immediately incapacitating and unsurvivable due to the brain swelling. I don't think anyone refuted that.

 

[missy1974]

People react differently in a crisis, and I don’t know the background of Jen, Kelly, or really Karen.
But they got baby blankets out of the house to try to warm him up, I’ve also read the Karen tried to use her body to warm him up.
Do I think JMcCabe thought her sister and the family in the home were all dead? No

Maybe they nearness to the road made them clearly think it looked like a hit by car or snow plow accident?
Maybe the sight of blood hinted to him that he was hurt more than just cold?

I cannot fault any of them for their actions- all three had to be traumatized by the fact that it is a dead cold body in the elements of someone they know.

I’m not sure what I would have done, or if I would act in a way that others would judge as lacking.

IMO

IIRC the blankets came from Kerri's car.

I can't remember which one, or if both Kerri and JMc testified to it, but they said Karen at one point thought she had blood on her because she had her period. THIS is how rational Karen was. She didn't even notice he was wounded as bad as he was. Like she said, he didn't look mortally wounded (when she saw him that morning).

I can see in the initial minutes Jen not going into the house, but at some point, I would have thought she would go in to check on them or let them know what was going on. We saw the dashcam videos, Jen was mostly standing around talking to different officers/first responders.

All JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Peter breaks down Brennan's argument

 

[missy1974]

Does anyone agree with me that in actuality, Chloe could have just attacked JOK and he fell backwards and hit his head on a hard floor, possibly in the garage or basement?

I agree with you it could have happened that way. Home owner panics because he would be liable for that still in that situation IMO

It doesn't necessarily involve everyone in the house, would make them all liars. Proctor could have had an idea or maybe not... but STILL planted evidence where there was none. It doesn't have to involve everyone.

But that is JMO.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Does anyone agree with me that in actuality, Chloe could have just attacked JOK and he fell backwards and hit his head on a hard floor, possibly in the garage or basement?

If Chloe did attack JOK and then he hit his head and died bye-bye Chloe when LE finds out she attacked him.
Now it's no dog for the Alberts and a huge lawsuit from JOK's family.
So instead of calling 911 immediately a plan is needed.

IMO

 

[HarmonyE.]

I agree with you it could have happened that way. Home owner panics because he would be liable for that still in that situation IMO

It doesn't necessarily involve everyone in the house, would make them all liars. Proctor could have had an idea or maybe not... but STILL planted evidence where there was none. It doesn't have to involve everyone.

But that is JMO.

Brian Albert doesn't strike me as the panicking type. And this scenario doesn't explain why others are lying and behaving so bizarrely. This was no accident.

 

[missy1974]

I’m not sure why that raised surface with texture (Lapasada describes as consistent with JOKs head wound) has to be inside the home- except to bring in a third party to blame.



IMO

RSBM

Dr. Laposata was asked if she saw anything consistent outside in that area that could cause it, she did not.

No idea how the flag pole was in the ground. But she didn't see anything.

All JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

You know, this is an excellent point! CW had the opportunity to use ARCCA's services since they had the original report from the department of justice but the CW chose not to call them during Trials 1 or 2. Hank told the jury that ARCCA also does tech work just like Aperture does AND YET the CW hired Aperture instead of ARCCA to do the tech stream work. Hank is such a little little man.
MOO

DId you notice HB used a clip from ARCCA in his closing, the one where the crash dummy spins around after being hit by the car!
He used it to show something that test was not designed to even show.

IMO

 

[mzmarymac]

My own anatomy of a cover-up:

ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS - BA/BH - scuffle with JOK, chloe jumps in, they pull her off too late, but fear their culpability and decide to try to cover it up

AFTER THE FACT CO-CONSPIRATORS WHO KNEW THE TRUTH - possibly JM/NA/MattM (possibly AMc/CA just due to the sketchy texts)

HELPERS WHO WANTED TO MAKE SURE KR DIDN'T "GET AWAY WITH IT" and/or the McAlberts & BH getting blamed for something "they didn't do"- MP/KB

CONFIRMATION BIAS PARTICIPANTS - anyone else who simply believed the McAlberts and the police and went along based upon their trust in this family and law enforcement - First responders (I hit hiim??) LE, etc...

Add in slimy prosecutors who just want a win for the CW at all costs. Perhaps they believe she's guilty. But they certainly have never been on a quest to prove her innocence or dare to look at any other options. $400k for a kindergarten blue man re-enactment??)

I'm sorry, but this theory doesn't seem too far off. There are plenty of examples of cases where people got away with stuff for a long time like Sarah Birchmore's case. Lots of coverup, lying, criminal activity, all by MA LEO, many the same players as here. Jimmy Hoffa, JonBenet Ramsey, Tupac, Biggie, and so many government conspiracies not uncovered for decades. 9 huge government conspiracies that actually happened

So no - I don't think it's that farfetched to believe that KR was framed by a small handful of people and got away with it (or have so far)

Makes more sense than a vehicle hitting him and breaking no bones, and she managed to do it where no one saw or heard a thing even though we know that Ryan Nagle saw JOK in her car and pulled in behind her. Saw her calmly sitting there with hands on 10 and 2 and no sign of JOK, and supposedly JM looking out the window every 2 seconds.

 

[missy1974]

I did-
Dr L described the wound as being consistent with a raised surface with a texture pattern.
It is not a fact that inside the house is the only location with this description.

I’m not saying the wound was caused by a fall into the yard on dirt- I’m saying there are several raised ledges consistent with what she describes.

She should not have pointed to the garage when there are several steps outside the home, unless she examined and compared them all to the wound.

Would steps down into a garage look exceptionally different than the steps up to the porch?
I don’t know
They would be raised ledges with a texture from brick or concrete, unless they are wooden.

In the images of the house I see
- four brick steps on the outside of the front door
- two brick steps on the outside of the door into the home near the garage
- a brick walkway from the drive to the doors
- and a door to the right into the garage- which the PI that measured distances in the yard evidently saw steps going down

A forensic expert could likely distinguish between these types of steps to see if one of them matches the patterns on the head wound. That would be solid science

IMO

I believe the garage had cement steps. They wanted the the PI to testify to it and show pictures, they were not allowed to do that. They wanted Dr. L to point them out... couldn't do that either. So my guess is, that is what Dr. L would have said it was consistent with the blunt force trauma and marks she pointed out, if she had been allowed to. It was from a short hearing when the jurors were not there.

JMO

 

[mzmarymac]

I wish we knew more about their garage. Did they usually park their cars in the garage? Or was it used as some kind of hangout space, say to go smoke. I'm really thinking that it happened in the garage. He went through that front side service door to the garage. "The guy never went into the house."

 

[missy1974]

But if the head injury causes the vomiting rather than being drunk and the head injury happened inside the house, meaning blood evidence as well as the vomit, it would
mean moving the body away from the evidence and making it seem like something else happened.

From personal experience, head injuries bleed like there's no tomorrow. IIRC there was very little blood found outside in the snow, did they find evidence of the vomit on his shirt outside or underneath him? Where did all the blood from two separate wounds and vomit go?

That combined with no search of the house, the basement being remodeled for the second time in 3 years along with Chloe being "rehomed" makes for some damning coincidences

I have wondered about the vomit too... if he vomited on himself, there had to be signs of it in that fresh white snow? It was cold, it would have froze (sorry, it's gross, but true)

 

[missy1974]

Brian Albert doesn't strike me as the panicking type. And this scenario doesn't explain why others are lying and behaving so bizarrely. This was no accident.

Maybe panicing is the wrong word for it, but I think he would be smart enough to know about the liability, possibly from past incidents with the dog. I don't think in this scenario everyone has to be a liar either. Do I think JMc was untruthful, I do... but it doesn't mean that every person in that house had to know what happened. All JMO

 

[missy1974]

DId you notice HB used a clip from ARCCA in his closing, the one where the crash dummy spins around after being hit by the car!
He used it to show something that test was not designed to even show.

IMO

If only John was suspended by strings.

It is good that Rentschlers testimony was only a few days ago, they should remember that

 

[missy1974]

My own anatomy of a cover-up:

ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS - BA/BH - scuffle with JOK, chloe jumps in, they pull her off too late, but fear their culpability and decide to try to cover it up

AFTER THE FACT CO-CONSPIRATORS WHO KNEW THE TRUTH - possibly JM/NA/MattM (possibly AMc/CA just due to the sketchy texts)

HELPERS WHO WANTED TO MAKE SURE KR DIDN'T "GET AWAY WITH IT" and/or the McAlberts & BH getting blamed for something "they didn't do"- MP/KB

CONFIRMATION BIAS PARTICIPANTS - anyone else who simply believed the McAlberts and the police and went along based upon their trust in this family and law enforcement - First responders (I hit hiim??) LE, etc...

Add in slimy prosecutors who just want a win for the CW at all costs. Perhaps they believe she's guilty. But they certainly have never been on a quest to prove her innocence or dare to look at any other options. $400k for a kindergarten blue man re-enactment??)

I'm sorry, but this theory doesn't seem too far off. There are plenty of examples of cases where people got away with stuff for a long time like Sarah Birchmore's case. Lots of coverup, lying, criminal activity, all by MA LEO, many the same players as here. Jimmy Hoffa, JonBenet Ramsey, Tupac, Biggie, and so many government conspiracies not uncovered for decades. 9 huge government conspiracies that actually happened

So no - I don't think it's that farfetched to believe that KR was framed by a small handful of people and got away with it (or have so far)

Makes more sense than a vehicle hitting him and breaking no bones, and she managed to do it where no one saw or heard a thing even though we know that Ryan Nagle saw JOK in her car and pulled in behind her. Saw her calmly sitting there with hands on 10 and 2 and no sign of JOK, and supposedly JM looking out the window every 2 seconds.

I'm still not sure where BH would even fit into a scenario with Chloe being around. She was not good with strangers, this was only the 2nd time BH had been in the home. He was a stranger to her.

 

[mzmarymac]

I'm still not sure where BH would even fit into a scenario with Chloe being around. She was not good with strangers, this was only the 2nd time BH had been in the home. He was a stranger to her.

I wish I knew for certain where he parked his Jeep. Many have said by the mailbox. But that can't be because Ryan didn't see it. Where did he say he parked it?