NOT GUILTY MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #38 Retrial

[Odeto BJ]

Does anybody think Hank threw the trial towards the end (with the defense expert), or just me?

Something seemed to change with him… I think!

Regardless, the verdict is so good.

I thought during cross of all the defense witness he was acting like a defense attorney: Being confrontational, sowing confusion, jumping from topic to topic, introducing supposition as fact.

I think he had been beat up pretty good by Dr LaSordra, because as HB tried to create scenarios that would include impact of the Lexus on JOK, she simply repeated that she could not agree with any such speculation because in her learned opinion no such impact ever occurred. He was obviously frustrated.

I did think that after he questioned Dr Wolfe and tried hard to discount the experiments performed without comprehending the impetus, and then tried to attribute holes created by the LE lab to road rash (and got caught), he was chastened greatly and from there on he was more or less seeking surrender. Certainly the biomechanical expert from ARRCA was having no problem holding his own during HB's cross.

I would agree, he recognized that he was beat and I don't think the verdict was any great surprise to him.
IMO throughout

 

[nightowl1975]

A little study on the distances involved: Both are 34 Fairview from Google Earth...I have measured many distances on GE and found it to be pretty accurate where the lighting was good. So two measurements shown: from the curb to the edge of the house and from the curb to the far side of the house. 57 feet and 85 feet more or less. Somewhere in testimony the 56 steps where attributed to the distance between the Lexus and the front door and represented about 87 feet.

I indicate on the second view the approximate location of the flag pole (oval) and the mail box (arrow). The latter is quite close to the curb as can be seen in some of the real estate photos.

I have never entirely bought into the scuffle between the cops theory but it has always been apparent that an animal was involved in roughing up JOK. This is not entirely original, but could JOK headed for the gate to the back yard, either because he heard something or was goaded into going that direction, got attacked by "the" animal, and fallen into the bulkhead opening? 3 rough concrete walls form the perimeter of that stairwell, each has a rough edge. He would have ended up at the bottom of those outdoor steps, possibly even blocking the interior door e/e of the basement adjoining. And thereafter bled all over wood steps, concrete lintel and profiled man door.... In all of that, there may have been no immediate contact between JOK and any other person.

Just a theory. MOO

I love reading other ideas on what could’ve happened. I desperately wish we had some assurance we would find out eventually.

The first thing that popped into my mind reading this would be if he fell down that flight of stairs, wouldn’t he have bruising somewhere?

 

[DustysMom]

A little study on the distances involved: Both are 34 Fairview from Google Earth...I have measured many distances on GE and found it to be pretty accurate where the lighting was good. So two measurements shown: from the curb to the edge of the house and from the curb to the far side of the house. 57 feet and 85 feet more or less. Somewhere in testimony the 56 steps where attributed to the distance between the Lexus and the front door and represented about 87 feet.

I indicate on the second view the approximate location of the flag pole (oval) and the mail box (arrow). The latter is quite close to the curb as can be seen in some of the real estate photos.

I have never entirely bought into the scuffle between the cops theory but it has always been apparent that an animal was involved in roughing up JOK. This is not entirely original, but could JOK headed for the gate to the back yard, either because he heard something or was goaded into going that direction, got attacked by "the" animal, and fallen into the bulkhead opening? 3 rough concrete walls form the perimeter of that stairwell, each has a rough edge. He would have ended up at the bottom of those outdoor steps, possibly even blocking the interior door e/e of the basement adjoining. And thereafter bled all over wood steps, concrete lintel and profiled man door.... In all of that, there may have been no immediate contact between JOK and any other person.

Just a theory. MOO

I thought about his being attacked by Chloe outside - then how did he get the cut above his eye? And why not call 911 if it was just an accident?

 

[Odeto BJ]

Not that I want to be the author of organizing anything, but if anyone were to feel compelled to communicate any dissatisfaction or agitation with the beloved Judge BC, Massachusetts has appointed a commission and created a web opportunity to do just that at:

https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-commission-on-judicial-conduct

JMO only because the language might indicate some rancour. SIDE BAHHHH

 

[nightowl1975]

I thought about his being attacked by Chloe outside - then how did he get the cut above his eye? And why not call 911 if it was just an accident?

I suppose I could envision some sort of freak out, let’s try to make this look like an accident sort of thing if it was just the dog involved depending on the laws of Massachusetts for aggressive dogs. I’m in Texas, and here, dog owners can be held criminally liable if their aggressive dog kills someone. I’m talking felony level, straight to prison, sort of consequences. It’s not just oh I don’t want my homeowners insurance to go up. It’s a felony with severe penalties.

That said, I think it’s much more likely that it’s far “closer to home” to involve this level of dedication to lies. This is why my top theory has always involved CA. People will do a lot of things to protect their kid. JMO.

 

[Odeto BJ]

I thought about his being attacked by Chloe outside - then how did he get the cut above his eye? And why not call 911 if it was just an accident?

....
The first thing that popped into my mind reading this would be if he fell down that flight of stairs, wouldn’t he have bruising somewhere?

TBM

What's always intrigued me: JOK's phone was cooling, he had vomited down his front, and for a head wound, there was not much blood on the lawn. There's always been indication he spent something more than 2 hours, somewhere other than the lawn. Obviously no one knows where the vomit and the greater volume of blood fell at this point but if it had been found it would be immediate indication of where the expiry took place.
There is the possibility he was attacked by one party and subsequently discovered and moved by another, a couple of hours later. It would take a pretty callous person to be involved in a confrontation or accident that resulted in that head wound and just leave him wherever he fell, to die. So I hypothesize that the incident that caused the deep trauma in the back of his head occurred out of immediate sight of those at 34F, and because of the phone data, occurred either outdoors or someplace that stayed at least relatively cold. I think JOK was prone but semi-upright somewhere for a considerable interval, that location was such that his phone kept cooling, and he was only discovered sometime later in the night. I think though that the animal played a role in it, that the wounds to the right arm were in close proximity, time wise, to the impact on the back of the head.

All that is speculation of course. The fact that we are still speculating in such diverse ways is reflective of how weak the investigation was, it should have been immediately apparent right after the first investigator talked to the EMT's that there was a puddle of blood and vomit somewhere and I never heard any evidence that anyone established where that was.

MOO where and as applicable

 

[trialobsessive]

How so? Honestly I was so tired of listening to his tone that I tuned out when he was crossX ing defense witnesses the last couple of days.

I don’t blame you. But, it seems he knew he was beat and was actually raising reasonable doubt himself by the end of the trial, and I don’t think that was accidental. He seemed to know that the CW wouldn’t get a Guilty verdict.

 

[trialobsessive]

I thought during cross of all the defense witness he was acting like a defense attorney: Being confrontational, sowing confusion, jumping from topic to topic, introducing supposition as fact.

I think he had been beat up pretty good by Dr LaSordra, because as HB tried to create scenarios that would include impact of the Lexus on JOK, she simply repeated that she could not agree with any such speculation because in her learned opinion no such impact ever occurred. He was obviously frustrated.

I did think that after he questioned Dr Wolfe and tried hard to discount the experiments performed without comprehending the impetus, and then tried to attribute holes created by the LE lab to road rash (and got caught), he was chastened greatly and from there on he was more or less seeking surrender. Certainly the biomechanical expert from ARRCA was having no problem holding his own during HB's cross.

I would agree, he recognized that he was beat and I don't think the verdict was any great surprise to him.
IMO throughout

Agreed!

 

[Warwick7]

Does anybody think Hank threw the trial towards the end (with the defense expert), or just me?

Something seemed to change with him… I think!

Regardless, the verdict is so good.

I said earlier he looked exhausted. And yes, in M00, it felt like he threw the trial towards the end.

 

[TDoc72]

TBM

What's always intrigued me: JOK's phone was cooling, he had vomited down his front, and for a head wound, there was not much blood on the lawn. There's always been indication he spent something more than 2 hours, somewhere other than the lawn. Obviously no one knows where the vomit and the greater volume of blood fell at this point but if it had been found it would be immediate indication of where the expiry took place.
There is the possibility he was attacked by one party and subsequently discovered and moved by another, a couple of hours later. It would take a pretty callous person to be involved in a confrontation or accident that resulted in that head wound and just leave him wherever he fell, to die. So I hypothesize that the incident that caused the deep trauma in the back of his head occurred out of immediate sight of those at 34F, and because of the phone data, occurred either outdoors or someplace that stayed at least relatively cold. I think JOK was prone but semi-upright somewhere for a considerable interval, that location was such that his phone kept cooling, and he was only discovered sometime later in the night. I think though that the animal played a role in it, that the wounds to the right arm were in close proximity, time wise, to the impact on the back of the head.

Garages aren’t usually heated.

 

[mickey2942]

I want the people responsible for JOK beating death held responsible. I hope there is further investigation and people are charged.

Never happen. I knew from the first trial that KR was innocent. And I wrote this earlier, no one there that night wants to really "know" what happened to JOK. It was buried. They wanted KR to be "guilty" and in prison forever.

 

[iamshadow21]

I said earlier he looked exhausted. And yes, in M00, it felt like he threw the trial towards the end.

I think it's an exaggeration to say he threw it. Threw implies he deliberately set out to lose. That's different to realising you're beat and can do little about it, which is what the situation seemed to be to me.

MOO

 

[SteveS]

A few thoughts about the verdict, and about some of the comments made ...
1 IN THEORY - the cw can appeal the verdict if they have legal reason to question the legitimacy of how it was obtained. (An appeal of the 1st trial is not a 2nd trial and therefore is not a violation of the restriction against "double jeopardy.") But appeals of such verdicts are rare, so while it's possible, it's VERY unlikely we'll see one here.

2 The civil case, while not needing a BARD finding, still has to overcome the barrier of proving that KR's vehicle hit JOK, and the overwhelming evidence is that it did not. The fact that she drove OUI doesn't by itself prove she hit anything, and the science and medical evidence says she didn't hit him. In fact, every witness agreed his injuries didn't show he was hit by a vehicle at all. The simple fact is that how his body injuries looked is NOT what someone looks like when a vehicle hits them.

3 Justtrish wrote the following in the last thread: "I hope she does not appeal the OUI. She admitted she did this. She was drinking at the bar, she was driving, she drove that morning and her BAC was over the .08 limit at 9am after she drove at 5-6am time frame. Clearly, she had alcohol in her system, and she drove her vehicle. If I was her, I'd just let it be. 1 year probation and do the classes. Move on with her life." I think that's good thinking, and I think it might point us to consider an overlooked aspect - what is KR's thinking?

4 To expand on that a bit, consider all the things that KR/def did that seemed to make no sense. Later on, that very day of JOK's death, she asked/spoke about the possibility of having hit him but wasn't clear at all on what happened. Much confusion in her words. Eventually she did the Body in the Snow thing in which she talked about too much drinking. At the trial, the defense pushed to have separate OUI charges added to the things she could be convicted of, when the prosec wasn't asking for it. When defining "what time" for OUI, the defense pushed for the broadest time possible (making it even easier to find her guilty). Why? Why? Why? Why? ....

When I ponder it, I am leaning to the idea that it was less about some sort of grand strategy, and more about KR having a jury decide the truth of KR's actions that night. Here's what I think: KR herself truly had (has) no clue what happened that night, didn't recall it (and still doesn't!!), was confused and grasping, but she does admit she could have been "overserved" as they say it, in light of her confusion and lack of recollection. Was she drunk driving? 'I dunno, I can't recall at all, but I'm glad to let the jury take a look and decide.' So I wonder if she is being willing to admit to what truth she knows rather than fighting it ("the truth will set you free"), and then let the science tell her and everyone else the facts of the things she does NOT recall.

5 While I was in support of a full NG verdict, I must admit I'm kinda liking this result. It's certainly a relief (and an unexpected blessing) JudgeB didn't arbitrarily impose her personal bias on the OUI sentence, so that KR got the same sentence as anyone else convicted of OUI 1st offense. And tbh, I must say that I like the idea KR is having to deal with her drinking issue (with a threat of significant consequences if she doesn't). The trial showed she and her circle all being VERY heavy imbibers. Drunk driving is horrendous and a potential killer, even if that outcome was not what happened this time. She dodged a bullet here. Hopefully having a probation hanging over her head can serve as a wake-up call to grow up and start to choose better actions.

 

[Bibbers]

Bederow's take on the 'house party participants' statement after the verdict...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1935450941278535878

I don't know if I am allowed to say that Bederow said last night that the gag order is now lifted and people are much freer to talk. He seems to suggest (and he ought to know because he is representing TurtleBoy and was going to join the Defense but Bev said he couldn't) that there is a lot of additional information out there that will likely get revealed now that the gag order is lifted. Should be fascinating. MOO only. Sorry if this isn't allowed.

 

[statt#1]

I said earlier he looked exhausted. And yes, in M00, it felt like he threw the trial towards the end.

He was whipped in more ways than one!

 

[kuromiiiilove]

That was interesting. I only know if Aidan/TB from this board. I never read, listened, or even knew what he looked like. He was not what I was expecting. I thought very young, lives in his mother’s basement type. He was pretty well spoken. It almost seemed like he’s daring the house gang to go after him, like maybe sue him.

Suit = discovery. That might be interesting!

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Proctor's 20/20 and Dateline serve 2 purposes.

1. Damage control.
2. Infiltrating the minds of future jury members for the civil case.

It didn’t help. All it showed was that he sees himself as the victim. Watching him hang himself bit by bit in that interview was a thing of beauty.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

I think it's an exaggeration to say he threw it. Threw implies he deliberately set out to lose. That's different to realising you're beat and can do little about it, which is what the situation seemed to be to me.

MOO

I think he also lost control of himself. There were times when he allowed Dr. Russell to speak when he should have just stopped her. She was basically hired as a dog bite expert but her comments about Karen’s grief reaction was a huge bonus. None of that would have come out if he had stopped her.

 

[katykat]

Does anybody think Hank threw the trial towards the end (with the defense expert), or just me?

Something seemed to change with him… I think!

Regardless, the verdict is so good.

I thought he was good with ARCCA but he really struggled with Laposata. Also didn't really make much headway with Russell and I think in general much of the methodology talk was lost on the jury in terms of its import.

 

[jepop]

I don’t blame you. But, it seems he knew he was beat and was actually raising reasonable doubt himself by the end of the trial, and I don’t think that was accidental. He seemed to know that the CW wouldn’t get a Guilty verdict.

I think Brennan made some questionable moves at the end there when crossing the defense's experts, but moo there's no way this was a deliberate decision to help along a not guilty verdict! Imo his 'mis-steps' resulted primarily from his loss of ability to think and strategise in a prosecutorial role.

I think his self discipline fell by the wayside under the reality and pressure of the defense's extremely well qualified and sound expert witnesses. He was unable to put a lid on his aggressive defense style of questioning. He became reckless, operating solely 'in the moment' with minimal self awareness. Jmo

After Drs Laposada and Rentschler and with a night to sleep on it, it seemed to me Brennan regained his balance and some measure of discipline. Hence, he made the rational decision to forego a rebuttal case, realising at this stage, it would have just made the hole he had dug that much deeper. The aim IMO was to help himself and at the very least not make things any worse for the cw's case, such as it was. At no time did Brennan abandon self interest. Jmo