MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #4

[ThinkHard]

Razz,
Interesting that's the interpretation you got from sock boy. That's not really what I picked up at all. He seemed like your average 29 something year old kid. I didn't pick up awkward or sexually inexperienced.

Kickoff,
Given the fact she lived in NYC and was murdered in MA, alone could be the reason the FBI was involved. Because technically it means the perp could have crossed state lines. And if he did or not, they'd still have to explore that angle to see if she had been stalked.

 

[FindHG]

Yes, people have differing opinions, understandably. Also FBI doesn't usually get involved with state level homicide which tells me other issues involved and also points me away from a younger person. But, I think law enforcement are being thorough, will solve it, and we will have the truth.

I agree, Kickoff61, he will be caught and face justice. The truth of why only matters in that it will help catch and prosecute him. Thank you for helping me process, as it were. Some more speculation:

So, a sophisticated older person, in their thirties or older, is what you'd point at? I would think, if he is that, then clean up time would be a somewhat childish concept, so a tad twisted maybe, but wouldn't ritualistically drawn to fire and water would be more sophisticated? There was the pond right across the road he could have used to wash off, if he did have a need for to clean up. He could have had water with him. In fact, the perp in the most recent rape in Queens offered his victim a bottle of water to clean herself off, IIRC, the rapist a man reported to be older, too.

Makes some sense, if he's done this before and never been arrested. That location though, I keep coming back to it, there's more significance then just anywhere, it seems possible. I think he may have felt empowered there for some sick or strange reason. Maybe it was a place he felt weak at some point too. Maybe stopped there to relieve himself, saw women jogging by before and felt impotent or undesirable, who knows? He needed this to happen there, it seems to me, due to some weak twisted reason to fit his plan and sense of himself. Not somewhere else where he would've had more time and less risk. That may be a point of pride with him, what do you think?

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree, Kickoff61, he will be caught and face justice, the truth of why only matters in that it will help catch him. It has no other significance otherwise, what he thinks, in my way of seeing things. Thank you for helping me process, as it were, so a sophisticated older person, in their thirties or older, is what you'd point at? Makes some sense, if he's done this before and never been arrested. That location though, I keep coming back to it, there's more significance then just anywhere. I think he may have felt empowered there for some sick or strange reason. He needed this to happen there, close to her family. Not somewhere else where he would've had more time and less risk. That may be a point of pride with him, what do you think?

Or it could be more of a case of flipping out and not planning a murder, and then had to stage the crime to cover his tracts. Perhaps he left her there because he wanted her found and he knew they would find her quickly if he left her on her running rt. not far from the road. To me the location and even the burning makes me feel like it's somehow personal, like remorse and guilt. Wanting to erase her personal identify so he wouldn't have to look at what he did and wanting her family to find her body quickly. jMO of course.

 

[Kickoff61]

By clean up, I am talking about wounds they reported he may have. Any age would have to do that , if there were some.

 

[rosesfromangels]

How so? It's a bit circular processing this, always come back to the same place. Why there, that day, why Vanessa? Her looks, competence, energy, or the right place at the right time? Her job, Vanessa's success, her being out of reach, if he knew her? Did her consistency of routine make her easier to plan for?

I appreciate your taking the time to process it with me, Kickoff61.

Was does any stalker fixate on a certain person. It could be anything, something seemingly innocuous to us, but deeply meaningful to them. Obsession. Possession.

 

[FindHG]

By clean up, I am talking about wounds they reported he may have. Any age would have to do that , if there were some.

LE emphasized the point that there were wounds in all the PC's. Yes, a practical thing, clean up, but I meant about him going off to clean up, then not being able to get back. Like clean up time was part of the process for him.

Was does any stalker fixate on a certain person. It could be anything, something seemingly innocuous to us, but deeply meaningful to them. Obsession. Possession.

Could it have began as an innocent crush, Roses, in Vanessa's perp's case, then grown twisted with time?

 

[FindHG]

Justice for Vanessa re-posting from earlier

http://www.telegram.com/news/20160907/month-after-runner-slain-princeton-waits-for-answers

 

[Indy Anna]

The murder of Jessica Ridgeway keeps coming to mind, although she was only 10 years old when she disappeared walking to school one morning and her torso found less than a month later. Her killer, Austin Sigg, was a few months shy of 18. Jessica was his first murder and sexual assault, but he attempted to kidnap an adult female jogger 4 months prior and neighbors' cats had mysteriously disappeared. From early adolescence, Sigg showed interest in child and mortuary science. LE collected DNA from residents in the area and as Sigg felt them closing in, he confessed to his mother, who called LE. The Denver Post has a good recap of the case: http://www.denverpost.com/2013/11/3...ath-that-led-austin-sigg-to-jessica-ridgeway/
There is also a thread here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...essica-Ridgeway-10-Westminster-5-Oct-2012-1#1

I don't think Vanessa's killer is quite as young as AS, but I think this was his first murder. He has likely tortured and killed animals and perhaps has attempted to kidnap females previously. He may have observed VM jogging in the past, but likely she was just a convenient target due to her petite size, possibly her weakness from the bout with Crohn's, and opportunity. Whether or not burning the body was to destroy DNA, it does demonstrate a sinister element. Like AS, VM's killer may have an interest in and have an obsession with death.

When LE said the killer would have wounds, my first thought was scratches on the arms and possibly the chest. The killer probably would have avoided contact with other people for a day or two as to not draw suspicion, and then wore long sleeve shirts to cover scratches and bruising. Someone on here also suggested the perp could have scratches on his face. That is an area he could not continue hiding from the public, but after avoiding contact with people a day or two, he could have an explanation and perhaps begin growing a beard. To be successful at avoiding contact and therefore suspicion, the perp is likely single and lives alone or has limited contact with family. JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

The murder of Jessica Ridgeway keeps coming to mind, although she was only 10 years old when she disappeared walking to school one morning and her torso found less than a month later. Her killer, Austin Sigg, was a few months shy of 18. Jessica was his first murder and sexual assault, but he attempted to kidnap an adult female jogger 4 months prior and neighbors' cats had mysteriously disappeared. From early adolescence, Sigg showed interest in child and mortuary science. LE collected DNA from residents in the area and as Sigg felt them closing in, he confessed to his mother, who called LE. The Denver Post has a good recap of the case: http://www.denverpost.com/2013/11/3...ath-that-led-austin-sigg-to-jessica-ridgeway/
There is also a thread here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...essica-Ridgeway-10-Westminster-5-Oct-2012-1#1

I don't think Vanessa's killer is quite as young as AS, but I think this was his first murder. He has likely tortured and killed animals and perhaps has attempted to kidnap females previously. He may have observed VM jogging in the past, but likely she was just a convenient target due to her petite size, possibly her weakness from the bout with Crohn's, and opportunity. Whether or not burning the body was to destroy DNA, it does demonstrate a sinister element. Like AS, VM's killer may have an interest in and have an obsession with death.

When LE said the killer would have wounds, my first thought was scratches on the arms and possibly the chest. The killer probably would have avoided contact with other people for a day or two as to not draw suspicion, and then wore long sleeve shirts to cover scratches and bruising. Someone on here also suggested the perp could have scratches on his face. That is an area he could not continue hiding from the public, but after avoiding contact with people a day or two, he could have an explanation and perhaps begin growing a beard. To be successful at avoiding contact and therefore suspicion, the perp is likely single and lives alone or has limited contact with family. JMO

I think your profile is good, and I align with most of it, especially the early earmarks of a developing deviant. Animal mutilation, fascination with the macabre, etc. I believe for whatever reason, even seemingly innocuous, this Perp had previous contact with the victim, and became obsessed. She was a very pretty girl, and perhaps everything he desired but could not possess in life, but could (in his mind) by killing her. He "took" her, possessed her, and then took her life. Therefore, he controlled and owned her. The only way he ever could.

 

[Indy Anna]

So you think he is planning his next act already?

Altho I'm not Kickoff, I thought I'd throw in my :twocents:. I think the killer will lay low until LE presence dies down. Hopefully, that is why they are being so quiet -- they want the killer to become comfortable again, while closely monitoring the area, and then be ready to move in quickly when he attacks again. :moo:

 

[Indy Anna]

I think your profile is good, and I align with most of it, especially the early earmarks of a developing deviant. Animal mutilation, fascination with the macabre, etc. I believe for whatever reason, even seemingly innocuous, this Perp had previous contact with the victim, and became obsessed. She was a very pretty girl, and perhaps everything he desired but could not possess in life, but could (in his mind) by killing her. He "took" her, possessed her, and then took her life. Therefore, he controlled and owned her. The only way he ever could.

I agree that it was about controlling and owning her but I think he will be ready to move on to his next victim when he feels 'safe' to do so without being caught. I think these types of murders do begin as an admiration for the victim and then grows into an obsession. Vanessa may well have known her attacker, probably just as an acquaintance. That's why I think he's older that Sigg (because he's IMO closer to VM's age). He would have to know that she'd been ill if one of the criteria for selecting her was that he perceived her as weak. Of course, she was stronger than he anticipated since it sounds like she put up a good fight (bless her heart); and if he was a fit man with a much larger physique, VM would not have stood a chance against him no matter how fit she was.

 

[ElemWatson]

I agree that it was about controlling and owning her but I think he will be ready to move on to his next victim when he feels 'safe' to do so without being caught. I think these types of murders do begin as an admiration for the victim and then grows into an obsession. Vanessa may well have known her attacker, probably just as an acquaintance. That's why I think he's older that Sigg (because he's IMO closer to VM's age). He would have to know that she'd been ill if one of the criteria for selecting her was that he perceived her as weak. Of course, she was stronger than he anticipated since it sounds like she put up a good fight (bless her heart); and if he was a fit man with a much larger physique, VM would not have stood a chance against him no matter how fit she was.

Indy - the profile you've created looks very interesting indeed. Agree with the young part - the perp is likely in his twenties. The burning of her body parts seems less of a ritual, and more of a confused action that an inexperienced perp would take. Almost like he didn't what to do at the end, wanted to desperately erase evidence, and did the burning.

Very likely he had known VM as well, maybe in passing. Although I doubt he'd have known about her condition. Crohn's is an awkward disease, and word about her suffering it would have been contained within her close family. He likely selected her because he was obsessed with her, and based on her size.


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[FindHG]

Kickoff makes some great points. Kickoff's very useful stream of thought got me thinking too. RosesfromAngeles and Indy Anna know so much better than I though. I marvel at how much sense you both make. Thanks to you both and to Kickoff61 too.

Roses, do you remember those FBI reports about how SK personality types dump their victims. Foxfire posted it while the search for Hannah Graham was on. I've been trying to find them, without much luck.

 

[Indy Anna]

Kickoff makes some great points. Kickoff's very useful stream of thought got me thinking too. RosesfromAngeles and Indy Anna know so much better than I though. I marvel at how much sense you both make. Thanks to you both and to Kickoff61 too.

Roses, do you remember those FBI reports about how SK personality types dump their victims. Foxfire posted it while the search for Hannah Graham was on. I've been trying to find them, without much luck.

Thank you for the compliment, FindHG. You have a lot of good input, too, as does everyone on this thread. It's so much easier to come up with ideas when we put our minds together. It seems, too, that patterns begin to emerge the more cases we follow.

This may be the SK personality types you're referring to:

Profilers use a list of factors such as whether the victim’s body was positioned or posed by the killer, whether sexual acts were performed before or after death and whether cannibalism or mutilation was practiced on the body. These factors are used to predict whether an unknown offender is an organized or disorganized killer. The organized/disorganized classification of offenders is the center piece of the FBI profiling approach...

[...]

In addition to the organized/disorganized dichotomy, a serial killer may leave traces of one or both of the following behavioral characteristics: MO (modus operandi or method of operation) and signature—the personal mark or imprint of the offender. While every crime has an MO, not all crimes have a signature.

[...]

The FBI profiler may also encounter deliberate alterations of the crime scene or the victim’s body position at the scene of the murder. If these alterations are made for the purpose of confusing or otherwise misleading criminal investigators, then they are called staging and they are considered to be part of the killer’s MO.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...llers-modus-operandi-signature-staging-posing



The FBI categorizes different personality traits of psychopaths and categorizes SKs by motivation:

The interpersonal traits include glibness, superficial charm, a grandiose sense of selfworth,
pathological lying, and the manipulation of others. The affective traits include
a lack of remorse and/or guilt, shallow affect, a lack of empathy, and failure to accept
responsibility. The lifestyle behaviors include stimulation-seeking behavior, impulsivity,
irresponsibility, parasitic orientation, and a lack of realistic life goals. The anti-social
behaviors include poor behavioral controls, early childhood behavior problems, juvenile
delinquency, revocation of conditional release, and criminal versatility. The combination
of these individual personality traits, interpersonal styles, and socially deviant lifestyles
are the framework of psychopathy and can manifest themselves differently in individual
psychopaths.

[...]

• Anger is a motivation in which an offender displays rage or hostility towards a certain
subgroup of the population or with society as a whole.
• Criminal Enterprise is a motivation in which the offender benefits in status or
monetary compensation by committing murder that is drug, gang, or organized crime
related.
• Financial gain is a motivation in which the offender benefits monetarily from killing.
Examples of these types of crimes are “black widow” killings, robbery homicides, or
multiple killings involving insurance or welfare fraud.
• Ideology is a motivation to commit murders in order to further the goals and ideas
of a specific individual or group. Examples of these include terrorist groups or an
individual(s) who attacks a specific racial, gender, or ethnic group.
• Power/thrill is a motivation in which the offender feels empowered and/or excited
when he kills his victims.
• Psychosis is a situation in which the offender is suffering from a severe mental
illness and is killing because of that illness. This may include auditory and/or visual
hallucinations and paranoid, grandiose, or bizarre delusions.
• Sexually-based is a motivation driven by the sexual needs/desires of the offender.
There may or may not be overt sexual contact reflected in the crime scene.

https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

 

[Indy Anna]

Here is another FBI document on SKs, including discussion about motivation and body disposal:

<snipped>

The most widely used “motive” based categorical study is Ronald Holmes and James DeBurger’s (1988)
motivational model, which was also developed in the late 1980’s. They identified four distinct motive types,
and delineated them as visionary, mission-orientated, hedonistic and power/control oriented. The visionary
type was described as killers who are classified as “psychotic”. These killers receive commands from voices,
or communicate with gods or other beings who demand the offender commit murder. Mission-orientated
offenders kill to fulfill a need to “take charge” and to rid society of victims who they believe are burdens or
are immoral. Hedonistic types kill to reinforce their quest for pleasure. They are divided into two subtypes,
lust-orientated and thrill-orientated. Lust-orientated murderers are offenders who kill for sexual gratification.
Thrill-orientated kill for their own excitement or thrills. Power/control orientated kill to exercise control
and dominance over another human being.

[...]

The categories utilized for body disposal were framed within two distinct contexts in which bodies were
transported from the murder scene and left at the murder scene.
• A body transported from the murder scene was further categorized as dumped or concealed.
-- Dumped was defined as the offender depositing the victim’s body with no apparent concern that
the victim would be discovered. Dumped bodies were usually left in public places.
-- Concealed was defined as the offender hiding or concealing the victim’s body for a number of
reasons. This was to either delay discovery of the victim’s body; to destroy physical evidence; or to
use time to distance the discovery of the victim’s body from any observable contact between the
offender and the victim. This also included placing the bodies of the victims in isolated locations
that delayed discovery of the victims.
&#9632;&#9632;There were three separate scenarios utilized under the concealment category: left in a body
of water, left on the surface of the ground, or buried in a clandestine grave.
• A body that was left at the murder site was further categorized as either left “as is” or concealed.
-- Left “as is” was defined as the body disposal scenario where the offender made contact with the
victim within the victim’s residence or took a victim into an abandoned building, killed the victim,
and afterward left the victim inside that same structure.
-- Additionally, bodies that were displayed were included within the category left “as is” due to
the small number of cases. Displayed was defined as the offender intentionally positioning the
victim’s body after death to shock the police, the victim’s family, or the general public; or to provide
a message concerning the offender’s opinion of the victim or class of victims.
-- Concealed was defined as hiding or concealing the victim’s body to delay discovery for a number
of reasons. This was to either delay discovery of the victim’s body; to destroy physical evidence;
or to use time to distance the discovery of the victim’s body from any observable contact between
the offender and the victim. This also included placing the bodies of the victims in isolated locations
that delayed discovery of the victims.

 

[FindHG]

Yes, exactly what I meant. Ever so grateful to you, Indy Anna. Completely agree with you, as you say,

"It's so much easier to come up with ideas when we put our minds together. It seems, too, that patterns begin to emerge the more cases we follow."

RSBM

 

[compassionate]

Yes, exactly what I meant. Ever so grateful to you, Indy Anna. Completely agree with you, as you say,

"It's so much easier to come up with ideas when we put our minds together. It seems, too, that patterns begin to emerge the more cases we follow."

RSBM

Yes, thank you so much, Indy Anna!!

 

[Kickoff61]

Thank you Indy Anna.

 

[Kickoff61]

Kickoff makes some great points. Kickoff's very useful stream of thought got me thinking too. RosesfromAngeles and Indy Anna know so much better than I though. I marvel at how much sense you both make. Thanks to you both and to Kickoff61 too.

Roses, do you remember those FBI reports about how SK personality types dump their victims. Foxfire posted it while the search for Hannah Graham was on. I've been trying to find them, without much luck.

Thank you.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Find: I don't remember the profile on how killers dump their victims. However, I've created my own little science, as you know. (And of course mine is amateur, LE has the true science).
For the most part, I find them quite predictable depending on their profile, their deviancy. I find them especially predictable i they are the macho, possessive types that just "snapped". The Perps with various, more complex psychological disturbances are harder to predict, and have varying disposal methods depending on their sense of reality, and particular deviancy.

In this case, I believe the Perp falls in to the latter category. Again, this is just my amateurish deductive reasoning.
I think he had adjustment issues from a very young age. Probably some maternal lineage history of mental illness. I see him as a bedwetter, animal abuser, beat up younger siblings, if he had them. Lacks empathy. Secretive and ritualistic in many aspects of life. Has had minor brushes with trouble, but clever enough to avoid detection for the most part. Very few friends, if any, maybe one "stoodge".
Heavily in to video games, has history of fire setting. Lots of stories and rituals in his head, knows he needs help but his impulses are too strong. I don't think he ever viewed VM with admiration, this was pure fulfillment of his ritualistic impulses. However, I do think despite his lack of empathy, he does know he did wrong and wishes he wasn't the way he is.

I 100% believe his parent (I believe it's a single mother most likely) knows he did this horrific act, and is staying silent to avoid the disgrace the revelation will cause. Of course it would alter the course of that family's life forever. It already has. I believe his crime is known, and I pray those with knowledge will have the guts to step forward. Further, I believe that forensics will ultimately confirm what I believe LE already knows.

Lots of opinions and speculations from me today! And of course, as always, all amateur speculations. LE's got this. I know they do.