MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[ForensicMass]

Can someone run down the phone timeline, written in non-techy terms?

I'm thinking she was attacked early in the run, but that her phone was not disabled until the end of the attack - perhaps the perp was even reminded of the phone's existance when someone tried to call or text her and the phone made a noise??

Does that make sense?

jmo

Yes this makes quite a lot of sense to me and that is also how I think of it. The phone went from her possession to either his pocket or perhaps his automobile and he did not Disable it until other more pressing issues were resolved. Someone had suggested previously that perhaps he turned it off and pulled over at Mountain barn to throw it in a dumpster there. That sounded plausible to me and I hope that law-enforcement checked any such nearby dumpsters. I would assume that he would have turned it off and retained it to destroy it or further remove it from the area if he was not from that immediate area.

as far as a phone timeline there really hasn't been anything established to this point other than the following PHONE RELATED FACTS:

She left her house by 1:15, and a witness saw a woman matching her description talking on the phone and walking along the BSR, I believe it was stated that it was right around that time 1:15-1:25 (could be slightly inaccurate on that time detail)

At around 4:30 Her aunt was searching for her and told a neighbor that her phone's last "ping" was in the area of the mountain barn restaurant. This was reported by that neighbor. We do not know the source of the "ping" data point.

Separating this from the FACTS. If The ping location Was from a smart phone app like "find my iPhone" her aunt or mom could have checked her phone's location with their phone and seen the approximate last known location instantly (gps and internet based location). If the data was determined by which cell phone tower was used, my understanding is that it would have taken a phone call or perhaps several phone calls to the cell phone service carrier and some research to figure out which tower the phone had last been in contact with.

Therefore I believe the ping was the actual location of the phone, plus or minus 300 feet. And not the location of the nearest tower to that phone. Hope that makes sense.

Can anyone verify what time the witness reported seeing a woman walking and chatting on the phone on BSR?

 

[ForensicMass]

Clip from CNN

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, employees at this restaurant, Mountain Barn restaurant, have said that Vanessa`s family came

there looking to see if possibly she was there because her cell phone had pinged off of the tower that`s literally right across the street.

GRACE: OK. So Ben Levitan, her cell phone pings -- Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert joining me tonight out of Raleigh. Her cell

phone pings off the Mountain Barn restaurant.

What does the telecommunications expert have to say about this ? Because to me this is just a misconstruing of what was initially meant by herself phone pinged at the mountain barn. Other than this third hand knowledge from Nancy Grace who said anything about a cell phone tower? Her aunt told the neighbor that her phone pinged near MTn barn at 225. Now, we have third hand, Nancy Grace, relating what Mountain barn employees said about Vanessa's aunt stopping there.

I am not aware of any way in which someone could learn about which tower phone pinged off of in such a short period of time. This was literally just as the police became involved, possibly earlier, and the aunt already knew the last location of the phone. Does anyone on here have find my iPhone? If you simply download the program you will see exactly what I mean. It shows you the phones last location. This is much more likely to be how they got this mountain barn ping information.

 

[Inthedetails]

What does the telecommunications expert have to say about this ? Because to me this is just a misconstruing of what was initially meant by herself phone pinged at the mountain barn. Other than this third hand knowledge from Nancy Grace who said anything about a cell phone tower? Her aunt told the neighbor that her phone pinged near MTn barn at 225. Now, we have third hand, Nancy Grace, relating what Mountain barn employees said about Vanessa's aunt stopping there.

I am not aware of any way in which someone could learn about which tower phone pinged off of in such a short period of time. This was literally just as the police became involved, possibly earlier, and the aunt already knew the last location of the phone. Does anyone on here have find my iPhone? If you simply download the program you will see exactly what I mean. It shows you the phones last location. This is much more likely to be how they got this mountain barn ping information.

Yes, I think it was a Find my Phone app that the aunt was describing when she used the word "ping."

No proof for that opinion, just a familiarity with aunts.

 

[ForensicMass]

Ok need some brainstorming-

Based on where she was left, the killer must have known that she would be found relatively quickly.

What does it tell us about the killer? His getaway plan? His actions immediately upon fleeing the scene? Does anything come to mind?

 

[ForensicMass]

In fleeing, we can assume he still had her clothes, her phone, 1 shoe, possibly a torch or other apparatus. It seems like he would have had his hands full.

It is also of note that she presumably was not stabbed or shot or bound. Just guessing as I would assume these details might have been released given that LE did go so far as to say she had been burned. That points to someone who perhaps wasn't prepared or planning to kill as a motivator, but someone who was motivated to commit sexual assault. Pure spec.

 

[Rocky1]

Ok need some brainstorming-

Based on where she was left, the killer must have known that she would be found relatively quickly.

What does it tell us about the killer? His getaway plan? His actions immediately upon fleeing the scene? Does anything come to mind?

First time killer?
Pumped, sweating, nervous, in a panic, anxious, trying to get as far away as possible, as fast as possible.
Seasoned serial killer?
Relaxed , relieved, calm, collected, still trying to get away, but not in a panic.

 

[Rocky1]

In fleeing, we can assume he still had her clothes, her phone, 1 shoe, possibly a torch or other apparatus. It seems like he would have had his hands full.

It is also of note that she presumably was not stabbed or shot or bound. Just guessing as I would assume these details might have been released given that LE did go so far as to say she had been burned. That points to someone who perhaps wasn't prepared or planning to kill as a motivator, but someone who was motivated to commit sexual assault. Pure spec.

Not sure if he had her clothes, but, if he had all that, backpack on a bike.
If he had all that, I'm dismissing all together that he was on foot. It may be one thing for someone to miss remembering someone walking down BSR, but with a backpack?
Easy if a car was involved, but still leaning away from that theory.
At one time, I thought maybe he was parked at the Mountain Barn or some other parking lot, then took a bike from there, did the crime, pedaled back and loaded his bike in/on the vehicle, and left. I'm still on the fence with that.

 

[DeDee]

In fleeing, we can assume he still had her clothes, her phone, 1 shoe, possibly a torch or other apparatus. It seems like he would have had his hands full.

It is also of note that she presumably was not stabbed or shot or bound. Just guessing as I would assume these details might have been released given that LE did go so far as to say she had been burned. That points to someone who perhaps wasn't prepared or planning to kill as a motivator, but someone who was motivated to commit sexual assault. Pure spec.

If the UnSub wasn't prepared to attack with the purpose of killing the victim, then her murder was not premeditated; thus, it becomes a crime of opportunity to sexually assault. Since the UnSub removed her clothing items from the CS, it is a fair assumption.

How long was the UnSub with VM? For 10 minutes? 15 minutes? Longer?

Snatched her off the road.
Took her to location along cart path while she struggled.
Forcibly removed her clothing.
Burned the victim's hair, hands and feet.
Grabbed articles, in haste, that belonged to VM.
Left the scene.

UnSub likely grew up with abuse and/or controlling behaviors.
UnSub engages in risky behavior.
UnSub has no conscious or caring, no fear of killing, no remorse for actions.
UnSub is fascinated by fire.

 

[Cem75]

I am not sure I agree here. In looking at the part of the road where she was attacked it just seems so obvious it was a planned location. You can see a country mile down both ends of the road, which would give him a good sense whether cars were coming. That's not to say meth heads can't plan, but it just smacks of a freakshow lurking.

I have family in Mt. Vernon NH and was in the town the night Kim Cates and her heroic daughter fell victim to a home invasion. 4 young kids - late teens, 2 ring leaders who were primary offenders. It was a terrible thrill kill. To this day it just blows my mind this could have happened in Mt Vernon. It reminds me of how dark it was when looking at the Princeton killing. Similar towns. So it COULD be teens, but I just sense this was a lone wolf person. It does not sound like there were multiple DNA samples.

I really hope Google has some data mining jocks on this case. There are some crazy machine learning/AI things that could be done to isolate the perps web search activity. If perp was driving an SUV, he most likely wasn't a homeless person with no smart phone. So it is likely he has been performing search and web activity more likely to be conducted by him. "Dark SUV" "VM suspect?" "DNA". A lot of things can be reversed engineered if the effort is made.

 

[Kickoff61]

Not sure if he had her clothes, but, if he had all that, backpack on a bike.
If he had all that, I'm dismissing all together that he was on foot. It may be one thing for someone to miss remembering someone walking down BSR, but with a backpack?
Easy if a car was involved, but still leaning away from that theory.
At one time, I thought maybe he was parked at the Mountain Barn or some other parking lot, then took a bike from there, did the crime, pedaled back and loaded his bike in/on the vehicle, and left. I'm still on the fence with that.

I can see what you are saying about the bike all along. That would surely make sense too.
Correct, we don't know if he had all the clothes. But it also explains how someone could be on foot then return in vehicle quickly with matches or something and retrieve items.

However, then we also have the fact they said she was found there, no report she was killed there yet. This still leaves the opportunity for him to do this somewhere else and put her there. The time frame is long enough IF it was someone close by.

The last activity on phone at 2:25 is interesting, because one would think he would know she had a cell phone with ear buds and be doing something with that right away.

 

[Kickoff61]

I think it can go either way with the location. He either wanted her found and it to be known (likely) ... OR he didn't expect her to be found that quickly. It is not known if he knew she was supposed to get on a bus and an immediate search with a (dog) being the dog that found her to happen within hours. Had he run out of time and planned to go back in the dark? That may be farfetched, because I don't know enough about the path location. But even being as close as it was it took hours and took the dog to find her.

 

[Kickoff61]

First time killer?
Pumped, sweating, nervous, in a panic, anxious, trying to get as far away as possible, as fast as possible.
Seasoned serial killer?
Relaxed , relieved, calm, collected, still trying to get away, but not in a panic.

I agree more with seasoned serial killer, and your description.

 

[Kickoff61]

I could be completely wrong, but I get the feeling that he did not expect her to fight to that degree (God Bless her soul) . Being then that things went wrong for him with knowing how much of his DNA was left behind and he went with his cover up plans from there.

 

[ForensicMass]

I spoke with my high school friend who trains police canines. He is an expert and owns a company that provides these dogs for searches just like this. Here is what he had to say regarding whether the dogs would have been able to follow the killers trail through the woods:

"Police dogs do not need a scent article to track a human, however if it was a high traffic area it would be hard for the dog to scent discriminate and pin point which exact trail to follow, a low traffic area the dog would go off of the freshest odor. If the police searched the area before a dog it would be considered contaminated and even more difficult. If the perp fled in a vehicle the trail would go cold there!"

My take away from this is that if the police had already been traipsing around in the woods in that area prior to the use of search dogs, that leaves the possibility that the dogs may not have been able to track the perpetrator through the woods. It would probably have been useful to start a search with the dogs behind the mountain barn restaurant and light department to see if there was any trail leading from there to Vanessa, but we obviously don't know if this occurred.

 

[Rocky1]

I spoke with my high school friend who trains police canines. He is an expert and owns a company that provides these dogs for searches just like this. Here is what he had to say regarding whether the dogs would have been able to follow the killers trail through the woods:

"Police dogs do not need a scent article to track a human, however if it was a high traffic area it would be hard for the dog to scent discriminate and pin point which exact trail to follow, a low traffic area the dog would go off of the freshest odor. If the police searched the area before a dog it would be considered contaminated and even more difficult. If the perp fled in a vehicle the trail would go cold there!"

My take away from this is that if the police had already been traipsing around in the woods in that area prior to the use of search dogs, that leaves the possibility that the dogs may not have been able to track the perpetrator through the woods. It would probably have been useful to start a search with the dogs behind the mountain barn restaurant and light department to see if there was any trail leading from there to Vanessa, but we obviously don't know if this occurred.

The trouble with starting the search behind the Mountain Barn, is, (as your friend will tell you) It's all pavement, along with Rt.31. Trailing dogs rely on softer foliage like grass, or leaves... something soft that the dog smell when stepped on. The grass is compressed, and the odor released.
Hopefully, LE, knowing about contaminating the scene, knew enough to wait for the trailing dog(s) before canvassing the woods.
If the perp was trailed on foot to BSR, the scent would end there as well, if he was on foot, left in a vehicle, or on a bike.
If LE had an article of his, like clothing, they could have used a tracking dog that smells raft. (dead skin cells) If he was on foot, the dog could still track that smell, even on pavement, and less so on a bike. Carbon Monoxide makes the tracking harder, along with cars driving by that would have blown the raft around more. If he left in a car, the trail would have gone cold. I doubt they had anything of his, but I guess it is possible.

 

[ForensicMass]

I am not sure I agree here. In looking at the part of the road where she was attacked it just seems so obvious it was a planned location. You can see a country mile down both ends of the road, which would give him a good sense whether cars were coming. That's not to say meth heads can't plan, but it just smacks of a freakshow lurking.

I have family in Mt. Vernon NH and was in the town the night Kim Cates and her heroic daughter fell victim to a home invasion. 4 young kids - late teens, 2 ring leaders who were primary offenders. It was a terrible thrill kill. To this day it just blows my mind this could have happened in Mt Vernon. It reminds me of how dark it was when looking at the Princeton killing. Similar towns. So it COULD be teens, but I just sense this was a lone wolf person. It does not sound like there were multiple DNA samples.

I really hope Google has some data mining jocks on this case. There are some crazy machine learning/AI things that could be done to isolate the perps web search activity. If perp was driving an SUV, he most likely wasn't a homeless person with no smart phone. So it is likely he has been performing search and web activity more likely to be conducted by him. "Dark SUV" "VM suspect?" "DNA". A lot of things can be reversed engineered if the effort is made.

I agree that the location, if known to the perp, would be the best place along her known Route. But if this was a planned location, how does a vehicle fit in? No pre-planning rapist or murderer would PLAN to leave a car right along the road there. Doing so would completely negate the benefit of the remoteness of the site. That's a good spot to attack if you are jumping out of nowhere. But it's really not a great spot at all if you have a vehicle along the road. And by LE's knowledge, I do believe a vehicle was seen right there in the time period in question or they wouldn't be asking the public about it. Therefore, despite how perfect the spot seems, I'm inclined to think that if a car was there, it wasn't someone jumping out of the woods. It was someone cruising along, and looking for a remote place near where he saw Vanessa return from the store. Whoever it was seems to me to have known where she would be emanating from. That leaves long-time planner/admirer and random guy that spotted her at the store and watched where she went. Long-time planner wouldn't use a vehicle, and would have had a plan for where to hide her body. I believe this person became aware of Vanessa very shortly before the assault.

OR knew of her. Saw her earlier that day, got the idea

 

[Kickoff61]

I agree that the location, if known to the perp, would be the best place along her known Route. But if this was a planned location, how does a vehicle fit in? No pre-planning rapist or murderer would PLAN to leave a car right along the road there. Doing so would completely negate the benefit of the remoteness of the site. That's a good spot to attack if you are jumping out of nowhere. But it's really not a great spot at all if you have a vehicle along the road. And by LE's knowledge, I do believe a vehicle was seen right there in the time period in question or they wouldn't be asking the public about it. Therefore, despite how perfect the spot seems, I'm inclined to think that if a car was there, it wasn't someone jumping out of the woods. It was someone cruising along, and looking for a remote place near where he saw Vanessa return from the store. Whoever it was seems to me to have known where she would be emanating from. That leaves long-time planner/admirer and random guy that spotted her at the store and watched where she went. Long-time planner wouldn't use a vehicle, and would have had a plan for where to hide her body. I believe this person became aware of Vanessa very shortly before the assault.

I have explained earlier how a vehicle could fit in without being there the entire time, but only briefly.

 

[Kickoff61]

No-one knows that he was prepared for her level of fight. If he was left with scratches and wounds as reported by LE (I don't think he expected that). Therefore, he wouldn't expect to leave so much DNA behind either. Therefore, the choice to get rid of the DNA left behind would be a spontaneous quick planning to do so IF that is what he did. If that is the case, no-one knows if he had a lighter, a match, a torch or whatever with him. He would then have to get it.

 

[Kickoff61]

I may be wrong but do people honestly think he expected to walk out of this with wounds to be seen?

 

[Kickoff61]

Does anyone have the source re: her being a the store?