MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #6

[Rocky1]

I agree. Unplanned in many ways seems the most likely.
But did she end up meeting up with someone she knows and things went bad quick? Or was she spotted by a prawler?

Where they planning to do it? Just not that day?

Could someone who knew her have driven by and pulled over to talk? Could they have gone into the woods to get off the road? Maybe some fight escalated?

What if she tried to leave and he tried to stop her? And something happens they are fighting she gets pushed down and is fighting back...maybe he gets a bloody nose and bleeds on her clothes (which is why he removed them), she scratches at an eye perhaps knocking out a contact (perhaps that's how LE knew he might have an eye injury)....he's trying to silence her and perhaps he strangled her, or breaks her neck, or bangs her head....or perhaps she bangs her head or breaks her neck just trying to get away....and now he has a dead girl on his hands....and panicks.....maybe he's married and he can't explain to his wife why he was there in the first place...all he has are some tools in his car...so he does what he can to cover it up.

When did LE say he might have an Eye injury?

 

[ThinkHard]

When did LE say he might have an Eye injury?

I don't remember the first time but someone posted the quote again from an article several pages back on this thread.

 

[Rocky1]

Yes ambushed from behind explains why no one heard her, still I don't find that scenario to be most likely...he'd still have to do that and get her out of sight before anyone saw him and I think that would have been an unlikely plan.

Fair enough. Think it would take less time to park along the road, get out, walk around the car, drag a body out, close the door, then drag the body down the path without being seen?

 

[DeDee]

This is just my opinion but it really seems like the fire wasn't part of the plan and was more of a rushed and ineffective coverup perhaps by someone with minimal crime experience.

It really doesn't feel like someone got in their car that day or woke up that morning and planned to kill her.

The cover up tools just feel more like a scramble then a plan.

The cover up tools just feel more like a scramble then a plan.

What do you consider to be the coverup tools?

I think he planned to kill her but maybe not that say but something happened that he had to or he got his shot. Could she have been visiting said close houses? Also why didn't the one that smelled smoke call cops? I think as far as that day goes it was unplanned. She could have caught him lurking or he coaxed her into his house on the way

VM was a 27yo college graduate employed by Google in NYC. Fairly certain that VM could not be coaxed into a house or a vehicle.

I agree.
Someone that lives close, but not real close.
Someone that didn't have his DNA in the system, but, wanted to destroy evidence so if he is ever arrested in the future, his DNA wouldn't be in the codis.

If UnSub is burning VMs feet, what evidence got onto her feet that he was trying to destroy?

I cannot agree that Perp was destroying evidence as a reason for the fire. LEO has his DNA so it was not destroyed. This Killer chose fire. I suspect the killer had a pile of nicely gathered sticks and twigs ready. If not, there was plenty of small timber to scoop, if needed. In the end, she is placed on the pyre. Perp left the crime scene.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that there was another crime scene involved. There is absolutely no reason to believe that VM was ever in anyone's vehicle other than one belonging to her own relatives.

 

[Rocky1]

What do you consider to be the coverup tools?



VM was a 27yo college graduate employed by Google in NYC. Fairly certain that VM could not be coaxed into a house or a vehicle.



If UnSub is burning VMs feet, what evidence got onto her feet that he was trying to destroy?

I cannot agree that Perp was destroying evidence as a reason for the fire. LEO has his DNA so it was not destroyed. This Killer chose fire. I suspect the killer had a pile of nicely gathered sticks and twigs ready. If not, there was plenty of small timber to scoop, if needed. In the end, she is placed on the pyre. Perp left the crime scene.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that there was another crime scene involved. There is absolutely no reason to believe that VM was ever in anyone's vehicle other than one belonging to her own relatives.

I thought maybe she kicked him after he removed her clothing, or at least her running shoes, and maybe he thought his DNA was under her toenails.
True LE has his DNA, but he could have been trying to destroy it.
If only her head, hands, and feet were burned, I see her in a sitting position, hunched over on the fire.
I don't believe he had any "tools', outside of a cigarette lighter, and I am with you, only wood was used. I can't say if it was gathered before hand, but either way, it wouldn't have taken long to gather it.
I also agree there was no other crime scene.

 

[DeDee]

Interesting point about the cab driver.
Unless I missed something, we have no clue how VM got from Worcester to Princeton, and back.
For all we know her Mom/Uncle/Aunt played Bingo on Friday nights and weren't around to pick her up, and she may very well took a cab/uber back and forth.
Even if she only did it once, that could have planted the thought in the guys mind, and just in conversation during the ride, she may have told him she jogged before she went home etc.
I'm not saying that is the case, but there is no reason it can't be.
Good thought.

Why would VM go to Princeton on Fridays if she knew her mother, aunt and uncle were previously engaged in other activities such as Bingo? Isn't it more likely that VM was off half a day on Fridays?

So, there are appx five train stations in Worcester. I chose Union Station because it looks really cool. One may have been closer but looked unfriendly. US is 17.7 miles (26 min.) to BSR. Round trip cab fare twice each weekend, once on Fri. and another on Sunday, for 70.8 miles would not be inexpensive. Seems more probable that a member of her family drove her to the station and picked up her from the station.

https://www.bing.com/mapspreview?&t...1_Red Cab_YN385x6870422~&v=2&sV=1&FORM=MAPAGG

 

[Rocky1]

Why would VM go to Princeton on Fridays if she knew her mother, aunt and uncle were previously engaged in other activities such as Bingo? Isn't it more likely that VM was off half a day on Fridays?

So, there are appx five train stations in Worcester. I chose Union Station because it looks really cool. One may have been closer but looked unfriendly. US is 17.7 miles (26 min.) to BSR. Round trip cab fare twice each weekend, once on Fri. and another on Sunday, for 70.8 miles would not be inexpensive. Seems more probable that a member of her family drove her to the station and picked up her from the station.

https://www.bing.com/mapspreview?&t...1_Red Cab_YN385x6870422~&v=2&sV=1&FORM=MAPAGG

I was using friday night bingo for an example. I don't know what time she would have arrived in Princeton. She took a bus from NY to Worcester.(same location Union Station)
And you are right, it would not be inexpensive for cab fare ,(although I think it's fair to say she probably could afford it) nor am I saying she took a cab. What I am saying is we don't know, and although I doubt that was the case, Eveys' thought is valid.

 

[DeDee]

I was using friday night bingo for an example. I don't know what time she would have arrived in Princeton. She took a bus from NY to Worcester.(same location Union Station)
And you are right, it would not be inexpensive for cab fare ,(although I think it's fair to say she probably could afford it) nor am I saying she took a cab. What I am saying is we don't know, and although I doubt that was the case, Eveys' thought is valid.

VM rode a bus from NYC to Worcester. Good to know, thanks. I've never read anywhere anything about taking her to the bus station or picking her up from a bus station as it was always to the train station which lead me to erroneously believe she traveled by train. Obviously, I am obsessed with finding this young lady's killer. What happened to her and her family is unfair. Her killer needs to be sent to a special place.

Oh, my apologies are extended for I may have been misunderstood. Indeed, Evey and everyone's opinion is valid and of value. We discuss the ideas and opinions to decide the most probable answer is usually the most basic one. Occam made sure of that.

I wish one of her friends would join us. Let us know more about her routine. What time did she typically depart and arrive back in NYC? What hours did she work? Who was her last boyfriend? Did she live alone? I would have hired a PI to use a finetooth comb thru my daughter's NYC belongings searching for clues. How did she travel when in NYC to work and home? Did she leave work early on Fridays?

At least three of my buddies work for huge corps and take a half day off because the bosses believe in the team being able to accomplish the work expeditiously. PeopleSoft does it. CocaCola does it by employees earning days off during every four week period. Time Warner in FL does it for their employees. It's an earned perk when one reaches a certain level or status. A buddy in Cali works in the Valley with a group of IT program writers who uses hover boards to go from cubicle to cubicle. The same bunch used electric scooters to putt around from cubicle to cubicle before that. Their building has an entire floor dedicated to workout and exercise. All to say, this may have been similar to the type environment VM worked in and we need to know that. Did she exercise in the same building where she worked?

Because the problem here is that this young, single lady was definitely targeted while doing something she only did twice each month on a particular day of the week, Sunday, and at a certain time on that day, she leaves home to run around one o'clock. The odds of this horrific occasion being partially or completely happenstance are nil or almost nonexistent.

 

[ThinkHard]

What do you consider to be the coverup tools?



VM was a 27yo college graduate employed by Google in NYC. Fairly certain that VM could not be coaxed into a house or a vehicle.



If UnSub is burning VMs feet, what evidence got onto her feet that he was trying to destroy?

I cannot agree that Perp was destroying evidence as a reason for the fire. LEO has his DNA so it was not destroyed. This Killer chose fire. I suspect the killer had a pile of nicely gathered sticks and twigs ready. If not, there was plenty of small timber to scoop, if needed. In the end, she is placed on the pyre. Perp left the crime scene.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that there was another crime scene involved. There is absolutely no reason to believe that VM was ever in anyone's vehicle other than one belonging to her own relatives.

What I meant by cover up tools was something to burn her with.

I do not see this like you do. I do not believe the fire was part of the crime plan...I think it was an attempt by someone with minimal experience trying to cover their tracks.

I do not believe for a minute he built a fire and placed her body on top of it and left. She wouldn't have ended up with precise parts of her body burned if that were the case and the chances of the fire going out on its own in that draught i feel would be slim. If he created a fire like that in the woods the smoke it could create and smell would draw more attention then just a neighbor smelling some smoke.

Finally we do not actually know if she was taken from that spot or not....the police would know where a struggle took place though...I don't really see how we know for sure she wasn't removed and brought back there.

I understand that's your opinion and it's ok for us to disagree but I'm just not seeing that stuff as definitive or absolute as you.

 

[ThinkHard]

I thought maybe she kicked him after he removed her clothing, or at least her running shoes, and maybe he thought his DNA was under her toenails.
True LE has his DNA, but he could have been trying to destroy it.
If only her head, hands, and feet were burned, I see her in a sitting position, hunched over on the fire.
I don't believe he had any "tools', outside of a cigarette lighter, and I am with you, only wood was used. I can't say if it was gathered before hand, but either way, it wouldn't have taken long to gather it.
I also agree there was no other crime scene.

Maybe she kicked him and caused him to have a bloody nose and bleed on one shoe and her clothes.

 

[ThinkHard]

Why would VM go to Princeton on Fridays if she knew her mother, aunt and uncle were previously engaged in other activities such as Bingo? Isn't it more likely that VM was off half a day on Fridays?

So, there are appx five train stations in Worcester. I chose Union Station because it looks really cool. One may have been closer but looked unfriendly. US is 17.7 miles (26 min.) to BSR. Round trip cab fare twice each weekend, once on Fri. and another on Sunday, for 70.8 miles would not be inexpensive. Seems more probable that a member of her family drove her to the station and picked up her from the station.

https://www.bing.com/mapspreview?&t...1_Red Cab_YN385x6870422~&v=2&sV=1&FORM=MAPAGG

There is only one train station in Worcester it's Union station. It's the ONLY train station in Worcester. I don't know where you got five from. And it's roughly 30 minutes by car to Princeton. Union station is also where the bus station is.

Also for what it's worth, taking the train from NYC to Worcester makes very little sense and you'd only do it if you had too. But it's more expensive and it takes longer then any other option...because the train follows the Connecticut coast right along 95 till it starts going north in RI through Providence and up to Boston, (at this point it would be 4.5hrs) plus you still have an hour train ride from Boston to Worcester. Meaning you are talking 5.5hts plus the drive to the house from the station.

Now a car or bus would take you 3-3.5hrs. And if you do take the train you'd be more likely to take it to Hartford and get picked up there. But taken it to Boston and back to Worcester means you end up doing this big unnecessary rt.

 

[ThinkHard]

VM rode a bus from NYC to Worcester. Good to know, thanks. I've never read anywhere anything about taking her to the bus station or picking her up from a bus station as it was always to the train station which lead me to erroneously believe she traveled by train. Obviously, I am obsessed with finding this young lady's killer. What happened to her and her family is unfair. Her killer needs to be sent to a special place.

Oh, my apologies are extended for I may have been misunderstood. Indeed, Evey and everyone's opinion is valid and of value. We discuss the ideas and opinions to decide the most probable answer is usually the most basic one. Occam made sure of that.

I wish one of her friends would join us. Let us know more about her routine. What time did she typically depart and arrive back in NYC? What hours did she work? Who was her last boyfriend? Did she live alone? I would have hired a PI to use a finetooth comb thru my daughter's NYC belongings searching for clues. How did she travel when in NYC to work and home? Did she leave work early on Fridays?

At least three of my buddies work for huge corps and take a half day off because the bosses believe in the team being able to accomplish the work expeditiously. PeopleSoft does it. CocaCola does it by employees earning days off during every four week period. Time Warner in FL does it for their employees. It's an earned perk when one reaches a certain level or status. A buddy in Cali works in the Valley with a group of IT program writers who uses hover boards to go from cubicle to cubicle. The same bunch used electric scooters to putt around from cubicle to cubicle before that. Their building has an entire floor dedicated to workout and exercise. All to say, this may have been similar to the type environment VM worked in and we need to know that. Did she exercise in the same building where she worked?

Because the problem here is that this young, single lady was definitely targeted while doing something she only did twice each month on a particular day of the week, Sunday, and at a certain time on that day, she leaves home to run around one o'clock. The odds of this horrific occasion being partially or completely happenstance are nil or almost nonexistent.

Regarding NYC and summer hours....if you work or have worked in NYC a lot of companies honor what they call "summer hours" for each company it can be different but it's usually half days on Fridays type of thing.

It's also possible of course she always had a flex schedule working at google, but it's also a possibility she was getting out earlier in the summer because of these ammendaed summer hours.

 

[Kickoff61]

The only reasons to be speculated the vehicle was there for shorter period of time, such as attacked on foot, then left and brought back vehicle to retrieve items and/or start fire and hide scratches , (which would not be hard if living nearby on her route) ...or it happening somewhere else on route and vehicle returning with her to there...is because this is very close to houses. A person is said to have smelled smoke, another driveway on the opposite side of the road is very close to the entry to this path. It is not a common place for someone to park, therefore it is the time line in question. To attack her, bring her into the woods, kill her, then get whatever is needed from vehicle to do a fire (no-one knows the person had a lighter), (by the way the torch is only speculation also) ...then do a specific type fire all while this vehicle is parked there, (for anyone of those people to come along or check things out near their houses... is very difficult to believe.

 

[Kickoff61]

I think the biggest risk, would be getting out of the vehicle right there and having it there throughout all of this.

And again, would probably have to be parked there already, due to the guard rail . If driving up behind her, would have had to time it perfectly.

It is the location of the scene and things around the scene that lead to these theories.

 

[Evey]

Hey just throwing this out there...but what if they have reports that VM was seen in a dark SUV around town at some other point, and then they have reports with a vehicle of similar description being seen near the murder sight on the day she was murdered? Maybe that's could explain why they seem so sure it's connected yet we can't wrap out heads around why it would be there long enough to stand out so much in their theory.

My mind has wondered that also and believe she wouldn't be in the car on her own free will so perhaps she did something odd enough to make someone remember it in an attempt to be rescued and just a thought but if the person is a family friend or close neighbor and pulled up beaidw her and said something had happened to her parent and they said they were sent to take her to the hospital but took her to the kill site.

 

[Kickoff61]

It does appear since someone may have smelled smoke according to a local here, then it was a 'fire'. Not just someone doing spot on injuries. That is indication it was a fire to destroy DNA or trying to rid of everything, starting fire in 3 locations on her.

 

[Kickoff61]

As usual, we have very little information and this is all speculation without facts. LE has the information re: their crime scene investigation, autopsy, etc, to know how this was done. The cause of death with medical examiner report has not even been released to my knowledge.

 

[Evey]

If he did smell burning , it would more than likely not be from harming her in spots as some speculated, but actually a fire set after she passed, to destroy evidence.

Wouldn't there be a no burn thing up if the area could easily go up in flames? I forget the term but Oregon has it something like burn ban for no outside open fires if the weather has the area that dry and if so I bet we can find out that and then the person or persons who smelled smoke would have been concerned and especially if it smelled odd and they i feel would have been outside to smell it or near a window and then likely also saw smoke. For instance if some place near my house is burning stuff we can smell it and see smoke usually. So I now find it more suspiciois and think the kill site was somewhere else even in the back of the SUV there'd be room and he dropped her off there with enough stuff that he assumed would start the woods on fire but either it went out or she was found too quickly afte. Or he was trying to burn off DNA before at the kill site and lives near and they smelled the smoke but couldn't see any because it's hard to believe someone wouldn't be alarmed by smoke and the smell of body burning. And wouldn't they see birds circling over dead meat and wouldn't any dogs nearby bark and smell it? Maybe familial DNA could catch him so he wasn't hoping he burned all his DNA away from spots he know touched him

 

[Evey]

I think it was someone close by, who does not have to volunteer dna, so is safe, add long as they stay clean with the law. This, to me, points to a long , tedious path to conviction. Not one they would jeopardize by making any mistakes, in gathering evidence that are not iron clad.

I agree and think everything they've done so far is to make the perp feel at ease so he messes up. So he like some of us assume they have nothing to go on. Does that state require license plates on both back and front btw? I wonder if he makes the plates somehow when parked or if parked. Could someone drive into that path? Maybe they looked into tire tracks

 

[Evey]

Interesting point about the cab driver.
Unless I missed something, we have no clue how VM got from Worcester to Princeton, and back.
For all we know her Mom/Uncle/Aunt played Bingo on Friday nights and weren't around to pick her up, and she may very well took a cab/uber back and forth.
Even if she only did it once, that could have planted the thought in the guys mind, and just in conversation during the ride, she may have told him she jogged before she went home etc.
I'm not saying that is the case, but there is no reason it can't be.
Good thought.

Exactly and in my town which is small we often use the same cab and same driver each time so who knows how many times he could have drove her and her divulging more info each time about herself. What's creepy is in my case when I took the cab the other day(I always use the same one) my moms friend who is usually my driver told me they don't have anyone that fits the description and told me to report him because that was very creepy..I hope hope hope somehow I just called the other company by accident but she's heard there's a creepy driver working for one