Found Deceased MA - Zachary Marr, 22, Boston, 13 Feb 2016 #2

[Sillybilly]

And can dogs smell through water? What is that all about? They had the dog on the boat??? I've never seen anything quite like that...Which made me wonder...

<rsbm>

Yes, dogs can "smell through water". They are highly specialized water cadaver dogs and they can smell gases emanating from a submerged decomposing body.

Ohio Valley Search & Rescue is just one of many, many links that explains it in part:

http://www.vsar.org/watertraining.html

Another interesting forensic link:

http://www.forensicmag.com/news/2015/09/cadaver-dogs-locate-underwater-corpses

HTH

 

[CARIIS]

<rsbm>

Yes, dogs can "smell through water". They are highly specialized water cadaver dogs and they can smell gases emanating from a submerged decomposing body.

Ohio Valley Search & Rescue is just one of many, many links that explains it in part:

http://www.vsar.org/watertraining.html

Another interesting forensic link:

http://www.forensicmag.com/news/2015/09/cadaver-dogs-locate-underwater-corpses

HTH

Hi my Silly Billy miss your writing style!!

 

[CARIIS]

Repectffuly!

I will clear up a few misunderstandings regarding a couple of my posts

1==by implication said our medical examiners are unqualified:

No implications in that post. I did not know there was a cornerer and or a medical examiner, I was stunned to find out that corners dont have any real training. They are elected. Wereas a medical director is a foresic MD. In light of all the controversy -- I wanted to find and provide for folks here, a llist of which states have what, so that if there were a particular case someone was following and wanted to see in that area of the country; if a gardener, who was elected to sign off in a death certificates on a as needed basis was the person who determined accidnetal drowning.

I also thought if loved ones of other family members were here, they might want to know that as well if they did not already know.

If it were my loved one , I would prefer, a doc over a pizza driver telling me the reasons for loved ones death.....just my wishes tho....

stated that evidence has been covered up :

That is fact, not speculation, in the one case the parents after 4 years got the LE to admit it was a homicide. Links provided on more than one occasion.

In the other instance, again wildly reported fact, linked several times that the lead investigator on one of these cases owned the land the bar was on and the wife of the other detective on the case owned the bar. Many have some questions there. (conflict of interest?)

Another reported and linked case was (linked more than once) the claim that this guy fell off a high bridge, yet his shirt was tucked in when found.Defies velocity etc.

And the final one linked several times, was the man found with his head at a 90 degree angle, which according to a medical examiner is an imposibilty , indicating the the man was forcefully held under water.

incompetence ...... bar employees:

. There have been dozens of posts expressing concerns about the actions of staff that fateful night.

railroad employees :

I love the NTSB and have read many of thier aviation and railroad final accident reports. The public and employees are not to be exposed to dangerous situtions as a result of maintneance issues. It is the law. No different than a "wet floor" sign

speculations about substance abuse :

The tradegy started at a bar on a birthday.There is no inapprioprate discussion when the story starts there. This dialog has certainly been thrown in the mix on this thread, newspapers, radio, television all of which MSM

mental state:

again, although a view not held very strongly here, is certainly an option in light of the situtation. There are reasons why many reports regarding this incident reference suicide statistics, explore the difficultites in differating the the differnce between a fall or intended entering the water forensicaaly. The cross referencing of is suicidie makes total sense IMO..

and I wish I hadn't done it:

that is fine. Ones conclusion about wishing one has not done something, typically, does not translate that others need to come to a similliar conclusion.

some of the speculation was mine:

Same thing as last notion. One being fine with doing something , then changing their mind, does not indicate that others who have not done so , in any sitution, need to align with another individuals decisions, and/ or be judged by those differences


very disrespectful to Zach and his family:

Posters here are being no more diesrepsectfull than news organziation Tweets, FB anything. Disscussion "about" is not "judging: it is disscusisng.

And to be frank imo it is somewhat of a silly notion to think that family memebers have not thought and or discussed among themselves and/or been asked by LE the same questions.NOthing posted here has been a shocking notion. His famly is pondering the same options as most, IMO

Sluething: to track or trail ...

....there has been a trail of very simllar situtions. Most articles on Zach reference another case. Mentioning another similiar event in and of itself does not imply they are the same while pointing out simillarites.

It implies they are they are similiar and nothing more. Any inferences by the reader , who are confusing a comparing statement by concluding that the writer is stating that they ARE the idnetical is the readers notions not the writers . The ole' compare and contrast!

Chocolate and Vanilla are both ice creams. Does not imply that the writer believes the are identical!

"100% tragic accident", confounded me totally. I would have to say family members are speculating (based on what?). I was really surprised that, to some here, had some signfigance ...just struck me as peculiar. What different would one expect a family member to say? moo with respect

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sleuthing

I hope this had cleared up some of the confusion!

 

[frisson]

I come here hoping that he's been found *sigh*

 

[Steleheart]

Confusion while both speaking the English language. My thoughts were if he were allowed to wait inside the door, after he finished smoking, while waiting for his family to collect the coats so he could leave with them. He wasn't allowed reentry for whatever reason. At least according to the last known interaction he had with his cousin.

We're all hurting over someone losing their life. No where near the hurt the family is experiencing. I think that may be causing some defensiveness, and affecting the ability to express how we're feeling, or what I'm trying to say.

Yes there is responsibility in our actions. Likewise in accidents, if we can look at what lead up to the situation, perhaps we can prevent that same accident in someone else. Workplaces even do that to prevent the same accident from happening again. I don't know that we can prevent all accidents, and events that lead up to someone's death. But if we can change so that a life is saved, IMO, it's worth looking into. Even policies within an establishment can be changed according to situations. Maybe in the future, if someone steps out to smoke in freezing weather, an exception can be made to allow the person to wait for their party in the warmth of the establishment.

BBM: :facepalm:
Yes. Not like I never get emotional. I understand now. Tanky.

MOO

 

[darring21]

The linked chart you provided shows a Feb 13 (Saturday) high 0f -3.5C (25.7F) and a low of -18.3C (0.93F). Typically the low would be for the early morning hours of Feb 13 with the morning hours dipping towards the coldest temps of the day. I’d say 0.93F is very cold, not considering any wind chill factor at all.

ETA: Temps for Friday through Sunday (high/low/mean)

Friday Feb 12
Temperature -3.5 °C -13.3 °C -8.2 °C

Saturday Feb 13
Temperature -3.5 °C -18.3 °C -8.6 °C

Sunday Feb 14
Temperature -11.3 °C -22.1 °C -16.1 °C

So yes, it did get much colder by Sunday, but Friday night into Saturday was not a walk in the park by any means.

The weather underground is quite accurate and you can follow it fairly easily. The low on Friday was 8 degrees Fahrenheit and occurred at 5am (early Friday morning). The high on Friday was 24 at 3pm. Friday at midnight, the temp was 18 degrees and wind speed of 9 miles per hour. At 2am Saturday morning, temp was 17 degrees and wind speed at 5 miles per hour.

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBOS/2016/2/12/DailyHistory.html?&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

 

[carbuff]

?
And can dogs smell through water? What is that all about? They had the dog on the boat??? I've never seen anything quite like that...Which made me wonder...
?

Snipped by me: yes, in areas with lots of water rescues and recovery, they have scent and cadaver dogs who are trained to work in and on water.


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[CARIIS]

Hi Trigger my dear!

Nice yo see you. Whats your take on this mess?

 

[Safeguard]

So, I have been following this case and I have to say it does to make any sense to me. First off, It was actually around 20 degrees when Zach was outside as it was 1:30 am on February 13...http://www.wunderground.com/persona...storyTable#history/s20160213/e20160213/mdaily
Still cold, but no -9 and wind chill at 16 mph. Don't know how many times people have incorrectly stated this.
Media has stated several different stories, the last two are that he was "seen on video walking on railroad tracks then disappeared into the water", the other was "he was seen on video walking into the water". Initially I had read an article stating they had seen him jump a barrier onto the tracks but then he disappeared.
From all accounts Zach was not inebriated, so if he did fall in the water, is there any likelihood he could have made it out? Swam across? Gone off on the foot bridge? Met up with friends he had in Somerville?
And can dogs smell through water? What is that all about? They had the dog on the boat??? I've never seen anything quite like that...Which made me wonder...
Also, could Zach have set up something to get away for some reason? I know 22 year old's, and even if stuck outside a bar, with family inside, they aren't leaving till all their family are with them unless they have an ulterior motive. Especially when not from there, and all having come together. And he was on the phone and then on the move before anyone could get to him. So, thinking... was he in any kind of trouble, he had to disappear?
Did he accidentally take anything from grandma's house and decide to start out somewhere new before his family found out? He obviously had a burner phone, you don't, as a 22 year old, just have one of those either. Generally for illegal things. Or for his disappearance? Maybe he owed to the wrong people?

Wow. Did he STEAL from gramma and run off? ( How does one "accidentally" take something?). Where on earth are you getting that little tid-bit? Oh and FYI... I don't give ratz @ss what the weather channel reported. It was FREEZING here, that morning. JMO!!

 

[Safeguard]

I recall there was a safety campaign a while back, " There's No Such Thing as an Accident"...

And I remember thinking, "That's just wrong. You could slip and fall, or something, and it would be an accident right?

Maybe it's human nature to want to find a reason, or a way to place blame. Maybe this is a way we try and distance ourselves, from feeling like bad things could happen to us, or someone we love...

None of us are "safe" from life. It is a terminal condition. 100% fatal.

Anyone, could make a mistake, at any given time, that has tragic consequences. This case was one of those, I believe.

*Note To all my friends who smoke, please use the "Buddy System" when you are out on on the town, can't hurt!

 

[carbuff]

Wow. Did he STEAL from gramma and run off? ( How does one "accidentally" take something?). Where on earth are you getting that little tid-bit? Oh and FYI... I don't give ratz @ss what the weather channel reported. It was FREEZING here, that morning. JMO!!

I wasn't here that weekend. We were visiting family in California. The neighbor who was watching my house called to ask whether she needed to take steps to protect my pipes from freezing. The house next to us had pipes burst and flood the basement. So at least zero, more likely several degrees below.


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[capegirl33]

Since we are in Fahrenheit this has no relevance....And the chart shows that at 1:30am February 13, it was 21.2 degrees Fahrenheit

 

[Steleheart]

The linked chart you provided shows a Feb 13 (Saturday) high 0f -3.5C (25.7F) and a low of -18.3C (0.93F). Typically the low would be for the early morning hours of Feb 13 with the morning hours dipping towards the coldest temps of the day. I&#8217;d say 0.93F is very cold, not considering any wind chill factor at all.

ETA: Temps for Friday through Sunday (high/low/mean)



Friday Feb 12
Temperature -3.5 °C -13.3 °C -8.2 °C

Saturday Feb 13
Temperature -3.5 °C -18.3 °C -8.6 °C

Sunday Feb 14
Temperature -11.3 °C -22.1 °C -16.1 °C

So yes, it did get much colder by Sunday, but Friday night into Saturday was not a walk in the park by any means.

Thank you, yes, I was mistakenly relating Saturday night temps to early Saturday morning temps. It got down to 0 to -2 as I recall and the wind was about 10mph where I am just north, so Boston around the harbor would have been similar. In any case wind chill was dangerous. The weather.com alerts were for a 'watch' Friday night to a 'warning' Saturday night. It was cold for anyone near the harbor that night.

:cow:

 

[CARIIS]

The mechanism of death by drowning is complex.

It is important to remind that the death by drowning is defined as a death due to submersion in a liquid and the mechanism in acute drowning is hypoxemia .......



Accidental or suicidal injuries due to the way the person fallsor enters into the water may also be observed.


Post-mortem injuries linked to the way ofrecovery of the body using ropes and hooks can also be seen. These kinds of post-morteminjuries can mimic ante-mortem wounds and the differentiation between ante and postmorteminjuries


is quite difficult because of the lack of the usual criteria of ante-mortem.
The signs of drowning depend on the delay in recovering the body and on thedevelopment of the putrefaction phenomenon which alter the positive signs of drowning.

Wet' Drowning

.....a conscious person immediately begins to struggle when he or she gets into difficulties in the water. Every time the person comes to the surface they will try and take a breath and hold their breath when they become submerged again. Inevitably, they will inhale some water and begin to cough vigorously. Breathing becomes more difficult ............and snatched breaths become shorter and shorter.
.

. .........death may take 4 - 5 minutes in fresh water and 8 - 12 minutes in sea water......

'Dry' or 'Atypical' Drowning

........ also die as a result of sudden and unexpected immersion in cold water........

..............caused by cardiac arrest owing to 'vagal inhibition'. This means that the vagal nerve, which lowers the heart rate .............so that the heart stops beating. ........almost immediate loss of consciousness and death follows soon afterwards......

The Forensic Pathologist's Problem

Drowning cannot be proved by autopsy. The pathologist has to take into account all the circumstances surrounding the death. He or she has to prove that the victim was alive when they entered the water ......................

Here is a link to an article which explains in detail how a pathologist should investigate a possible drowning.

The Diagnostics of Drowning

can the pathologist determine whether the death was murder, suicide or simply an accident?

Accidental Drowning

The majority of drownings are accidental. Alcohol intoxication is often a factor ...................

In the absence of any other evidence to contradict a verdict of accidental death by drowning, the pathologist will be able to form his or her opinion accordingly.

Suicidal Drowning

............ difficult to prove without corroborative evidence, such as a suicide note

............ had a significant history of mental illness.

If a person does decide to take their own life by drowning, the bathtub is the place of choice. .............. may also have taken an overdose of medication or drunk a lot of alcohol beforehand......

..........pathologist must carefully correlate the circumstances preceding the death and the circumstances of the recovery of the victim from the water with the autopsy findings

Homicidal Drowning

........ pathologist must establish whether the person was dead or alive before they entered the water.......

.......... injuries to the body, were they inflicted before or after drowning? Was the cause of death the result of the injuries or the result of drowning?

..........not always possible for a pathologist to form a definite opinion about the cause of death in these instances.............

Homicide may be suspected where an adult victim is found drowned in shallow water ............

......if a healthy person is pushed into the water and drowns, there will be no evidence of homicide..........

]over-inflated and heavy with fluid. However, this is not invariable and, when present, is not distinguishable from &#8220;fluid on the lungs&#8221;

There are no universally accepted diagnostic laboratory tests for drowning.
(
What aggravates these situations is the fact that no reliable tests permitting an unequivocal diagnosis of drowning are available. (Spitz and Fisher at p 353)
At autopsy, the

lungs of a drowning victim commonly resemble those seen in deaths associated with severe pulmonary edema, as in cases of arteriosclerotic heart disease. (Spitz and Fisher at p 353)

The presence of pulmonary edema is of no help, as it might be present in drug overdoses, heart failure or drowning. (at p 406)

Many corpses are recovered from water, but not all have drowned. Of those that have drowned, pathological proof is often difficult or even impossible to obtain.

The autopsy diagnosis of drowning presents one of the major problems when there is delay in recovering the victim. (Saukko and Knight at p 395)

&#8230; the actual fact of drowning, as opposed to sudden death from cardiac arrest, is often impossible to prove. (Plueckhahn at p204.18)

No excuse can be made for any final examination of suspected &#8220;drowned&#8221; persons that fails to be a well-planned and complete autopsy examination including the head and neck. (Plueckhahn at p204.19)
Proper int


erpretation of the findings also requires the skills of an experienced pathologist, supported by adequate histological, biochemical and toxicological analysis of material taken at autopsy.

bolding not me !
mpossible to say to any degree of certainty in some cases whether death was due to drowning or not and the practitioner is advised to refuse to give a decided opinion on insufficient grounds.

If there are no signs of any other cause of death it is for the legal authority to make the assumption that the body taken from the water in such conditions was drowned. (Smith and Fiddes at p 268)


Bodies may be found after immersion in either fresh or salt water, but proof that death was due to drowning may constitute one of the most difficult problems in forensic medicine. (Camps and Cameron at p 315)

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/19161/InTech-Diagnostic_of_drowning_in_forensic_medicine.pdf
http://netk.net.au/Reports/DiagnosticsofDrowning.asp http://forensicsforwriters.blogspot.com/2013/04/death-by-drowning-murder-suicide.html

 

[capegirl33]

Basically, I put out some common sense questions with the information I have read, as the story does not fit. Why does a 22 year old, not from the city, take off from his family, after making a phone call? Knowing they are on their way out to meet him? And that your phone is dying. Then walk across town to try to "make a train" when the last one was hours earlier. I'm pretty sure he was aware. You don't come into the big city via commuter rail and not know when the last train out is. And why would the cousins not worry til 10am? When the last you knew was he was waiting outside for you? Sorry, but, I wouldn't have left the area without everyone I came with.
And why's the kid wandering the tracks? Something more seems to have been going on.
<modsnip>And maybe it's my hope that he just got out, got away. Is safe somewhere and will live a long, happy life, because the situation doesn't make sense.

 

[carbuff]

Non-contract phones are very popular around here, especially among students and others on limited budgets.


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[CARIIS]

the chart shows that at 1:30am February 13, it was 21.2 degrees Fahreneit

Here is a wind chill calculator

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/epz/?n=wxcalc_windchill

 

[TMAN2014]

Sometimes I think people overestimate the judgement of someone drinking for hours. Not everyone thinks rationally in that state of mind, and therefore, they made mindboggling decisions that don't make sense. I know. Been there, and done that, and wake up the next morning thinking "what was I thinking?" It is not realistic trying to rationalize the actions of a drunk person. I am not saying Zach was definitely drunk. I don't know, but there is a chance that he was. Either that, or hypothermia might cause questionable decisions.

 

[CARIIS]

Basically, I put out some common sense questions with the information I have read, as the story does not fit. Why does a 22 year old, not from the city, take off from his family, after making a phone call? Knowing they are on their way out to meet him? And that your phone is dying. Then walk across town to try to "make a train" when the last one was hours earlier. I'm pretty sure he was aware. You don't come into the big city via commuter rail and not know when the last train out is. And why would the cousins not worry til 10am? When the last you knew was he was waiting outside for you? Sorry, but, I wouldn't have left the area without everyone I came with.
And why's the kid wandering the tracks? Something more seems to have been going on.
<modsnip>And maybe it's my hope that he just got out, got away. Is safe somewhere and will live a long, happy life, because the situation doesn't make sense.

I agree with many of your points! And I think you and I remain highly aware of intial statement by dad.."he had issues"

A profound declaration that he had "issues" is hugely releavant. IMO

Sure many 22 years olds have some growing up to do. A parent might say, had difficulty in school, girls, money , finding employee, managing money,etc.

I got curious what folks "hear" when the term used :

Did think posting the responses would violate TOS - so explore....it has implications

Google
What does it mean when people say "you got issues?"?

Someone whose car wont start does not say I got issues" they say my car wont start.

Fight with a partner, I am fighting with X

Unemployed Cant find a job

Money issues I cant pay mortgage

semantics and word choice are releevant, IMO in all communication.

What follows is not speculation. It is a fact. Has anyone seen/heard any mention of "mom" anywhere??

There must be a bio mom involved here - that is how humans get made !!!

IMO, the most telling thing here is complete absense of mention of a bio mom/ step mom - by 5 family members --weeks in to this sad story....

Media his mother, "according to sources"

died
ran away
divorced
auto accident
vanished
remaried
suicide
cancer
jail
in hospital
lost at sea

Some referance of having existed?

It is sooooo IMO, telling, clincially, all behavior has meaning!!
IMPIMOIMO

 

[CARIIS]

Non-contract phones are very popular around here, especially among students and others on limited budgets.


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What is the typical cost these days of those now? Is there a diff between non contract and burner phones?

Does it mean you just toss em when your done with em?