Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 2

[Morag]

"The sighting of the suspect reportedly came from one of the group of people who went on holiday with the McCann family to the Ocean Club complex at Praia da Luz in southern Portugal."

So the sighting just happened to be by one of the party group? And he/she didn't recognize the carried child to be Madeleine? IIRC, the group, including the McCanns, was nine in number. I wondered about that...Was the extra a man or a woman? Or was it nine at dinner that night, and the other person was elsewhere...(I know it's sexist or marriage-ist to assume that people only come in pairs--I'm just curious to know if a single man was among the group).

 

[RoughlyCollie]

They may travel to other countries to continue to publicize Madeleine's disappearance.

The reward fund is entirely separate from the other fund. The other fund is donations from people who wanted to help them bear the financial cost of finding their daughter.

I think the lawyers are mostly advising them on how to handle the fund for Madeleine's recovery and helping with the strategy, along with pulling in their resources.

As far as their body language goes, I think Kate is introverted and was uncomfortable about being interviewed and did not want to show her distress. I thought she was having a difficult time staying collected. I didn't read anger into their body language -- but I'm not an expert on that. I would be very angry if someone kidnapped my child -- and my anger would be directed at that person.

That's all IMO, of course.

I have to agree with most of the other posters, something is wrong here!

Watching their body language -- their arms touch down the arm rests of the chair, with Kate's body moved away from Gerry's and Gerry's head tilted away. And then Kate's is clenching her mouth almost the entire time and breathing quite heavily is seems. She appears to be very angry. But it looks like her anger is directed at Gerry. I'm willing to bet they had some kind of an argument right before the taping.......

And then she says she can't bear to leave Portugal without Maddie, but they will do a "bit" of travelling around Europe....... what is that? I realize travelling around Europe is almost like travelling around your home state in the US, but still, she can't think about going home, but she can think about visiting other countries?

And can anyone explain the need for the lawyers? I understood it when they said they needed them to handle all the money that was being donated, but now it appears that the lawyers were called in, even before all the reward money became available. Why do you need lawyers to find your missing child? What is it about English law that is so different from US law, that you would call a lawyer when your child went missing?

And isn't reward money used to pay the person who finds or directly contributes to the finding of the missing person? How is it being used here to allow these parents to take extended leaves from their jobs and even consider quitting their jobs? Apparently, they are receiving some portion of the "reward" money to conduct the search?

I don't have a problem with that per se, I know it is expensive and Lord knows, if my child went missing I would be ever so grateful if there was money to support me and my family so that all we had to worry about was finding our missing child. But isn't this really unusual?

To quote another WS poster: "my hinky meter is going out of control!"

Salem

 

[SeriouslySearching]

For starters, you can't judge body language from Doctors. They are trained to their trade, so to speak. I guess nor can you blame them for their egos because they do save people from whatever. You have to remember also that when we were being 'social' they were still going to school and the Docs that I know personally...were stunted in normal social skills. Now that we are all in our late 40's, it is very telling. Some have adapted and some haven't. I can't blame her parents entirely...because they don't know what we know. WE don't know what they do, but we are much more equiped to handle it. This isn't in defense of them leaving their kids at ALL! What they ALL did was horrific by leaving their children alone. I don't condone it whatsoever. I am just telling you their mindset and why we preceive them as "cold" now. They were taught not to get involved to that point...they had to shut themselves down early on or they could not make it as a Doctor. You cannot take that emotional work home.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

I don't think it ever crossed their minds that their child might be kidnapped while they were dining. The odds of that happening *were* extremely small.

That said, small as the odds are, I would never leave my children alone. I know too much about crime and criminals, so the thought does cross my mind. Besides that, I would not want my child to awaken and not find me there. I'm a really huge proponent of a child's emotional security as well, and that includes having their parent or caregiver around when they need them.

Some people do not understand children well, even those who have them, and even those whose life's work concerns them. They don't "grok" kids.

(From dictionary.com comes the definition: To understand profoundly through intuition or empathy. Robert A. Heinlein: Stranger in a Strange Land.)

If I had been in a more "silver spoon" environment all my life, my thought processes might be different. I know people whose lives seem easy and smooth. The words "hyper-vigilant" aren't even in their lexicon. They see me as being overly protective of my children, and I see them as being lax. The difference is mainly that I see more possibilities for things to go terribly wrong, even if the odds are a million to one. Even so, none of them would leave their children alone either.

Madeleine's parents explained how they had felt totally safe at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, and that going to eat at the tapas bar a few dozen yards way did not feel like a risk. "For us it really wasn't very much different to having dinner in your garden, in the proximity of the location," Mr McCann said. "We have been reassured by the thousands of messages from people who have either done exactly the same or said they would have done the same."

Madeleine's mother, Kate, added: "I think at worst we were naive. We are very responsible parents, we love our children very much. I don't think any parent could ever imagine or consider anything like this happening."

........

The way they try to minimize their blame in this matter is less than responsible. Dinner in your garden! How many people have dinner in their garden at least 100 yards away from the children's bedroom? That is such a ludicrous remark!

They were naive? I don't think too many people get out of med school and internship in a "naive" state. I don't think any woman who has been working in an emergency room for years is "naive" about anything. Kate may be as skinny as a schoolgirl, but she is not as "naive" as one.

I don't know and can't imagine what her idea of "love" is. Mothers who love their young children do not leave them alone for even a moment unless another responsible caregiver is there. And especially not for dinner and drinks.

Kate's excuses do not wash with me!

 

[Shazza]

They may travel to other countries to continue to publicize Madeleine's disappearance.

The reward fund is entirely separate from the other fund. The other fund is donations from people who wanted to help them bear the financial cost of finding their daughter.

I think the lawyers are mostly advising them on how to handle the fund for Madeleine's recovery and helping with the strategy, along with pulling in their resources.

As far as their body language goes, I think Kate is introverted and was uncomfortable about being interviewed and did not want to show her distress. I thought she was having a difficult time staying collected. I didn't read anger into their body language -- but I'm not an expert on that. I would be very angry if someone kidnapped my child -- and my anger would be directed at that person.

That's all IMO, of course.

We dont know if the child was kidnapped.
I would be feeling dispair, loss, misery not anger yet unless you knew something we didnt, lawyers are usually not brought in to find a missing child. It just sounds to me like you are defending the parents. The only time they will need any lawyers or legal aid is when and if they are charged with the disappearance or the neglect of their daughter.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

This is a good point. IIRC, there was a girl in the Shawn Hornbeck case who said to her mother that Shawn Devlin looked like Shawn Hornbeck, and her mother told her not to be ridiculous, to forget about it, or something like that.

The "all-call" should be put out to teenagers to report anything they've seen or suspect. There could be that one who was not taken seriously by a parent, or that one who knows something but is afraid to come forward in case s/he is wrong.

(snipped to save space)

And, teenagers see everything, there's no teens hanging around the pool at the resort or in town - at 9:00 - 10pm?? I don't get it. I bet there were, because what happened to Maddie happened a crucial amount of time earlier.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

I'm a lawyer and clients have asked me and my partners for advice that goes far beyond legal advice. People trust us to help them see things more clearly, and to have ideas for how to go about solving problems other than legal ones.

I would be feeling all those feelings you stated, and extremely deep anger at the kidnapper(s).

I think it does help people to be able to do something constructive, rather than just sitting around feeling miserable. It makes them feel they have a modicum of control over the situation. They don't have any control, IMO. The kidnapper is in complete control. BUT if they are doing all they can to rectify the situation, that's all anyone can ask.

I think the parents made a horrible decision in leaving their children alone. I find no defense for it. I was merely trying to understand what would make some parents do that, while other parents would never think of it as an option.

I also think that the parents need to concentrate all their resources now into taking care of their remaining children and into finding Madeleine. Hopefully, this story will have a happy ending, although I doubt it.

We dont know if the child was kidnapped.
I would be feeling dispair, loss, misery not anger yet unless you knew something we didnt, lawyers are usually not brought in to find a missing child. It just sounds to me like you are defending the parents. The only time they will need any lawyers or legal aid is when and if they are charged with the disappearance or the neglect of their daughter.

 

[Shazza]

For starters, you can't judge body language from Doctors. They are trained to their trade, so to speak. I guess nor can you blame them for their egos because they do save people from whatever. You have to remember also that when we were being 'social' they were still going to school and the Docs that I know personally...were stunted in normal social skills. Now that we are all in our late 40's, it is very telling. Some have adapted and some haven't. I can't blame her parents entirely...because they don't know what we know. WE don't know what they do, but we are much more equiped to handle it. This isn't in defense of them leaving their kids at ALL! What they ALL did was horrific by leaving their children alone. I don't condone it whatsoever. I am just telling you their mindset and why we preceive them as "cold" now. They were taught not to get involved to that point...they had to shut themselves down early on or they could not make it as a Doctor. You cannot take that emotional work home.

I dont understand how your training to be a professional squashes your personal emotions in relation to your family, sure, if you are a doctor you see a lot of sadness and have to learn to separate that from your home life, but how can someone look so cold and unemotional when their daughter is missing. Thats just another excuse.

 

[Shazza]

I'm a lawyer and clients have asked me and my partners for advice that goes far beyond legal advice. People trust us to help them see things more clearly, and to have ideas for how to go about solving problems other than legal ones.

I would be feeling all those feelings you stated, and extremely deep anger at the kidnapper(s).

Lawyers are required to defend people or prove their innocence when a crime is committed, or in other areas such as purchasing property, suing someone, why would you need legal advice to find your daughter, there is something that doesnt sit right with hiring lawyers for the investigation into the disappearance of someone if you have nothing to hide and I think they are hiding something.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

You learn to compartmentalize your feelings so they do not interfere with the work you have to do.

The McCanns stated that they were totally devastated at first, until they found that they could do something to help find their daughter. Then they marshaled their energies towards that end, and compartmentalized their feelings -- I'm sure those feelings don't stay in their tidy compartments when they are away from the news media.

I know that when a disaster strikes in my life, at first I am floored by it emotionally. Then I pick myself up and figure out what I can do about it and begin doing it. As long as I stay focused on the goal, I am not feeling my feelings. It is only when I am unfocused that my feelings come back to the surface.

It comes in handy to be able to do that -- it doesn't mean I don't have feelings, just that I can control them thanks to a lot of practice. I do find that when I am very emotional, I cannot put my shoulder to the grindstone, so to speak.

I dont understand how your training to be a professional squashes your personal emotions in relation to your family, sure, if you are a doctor you see a lot of sadness and have to learn to separate that from your home life, but how can someone look so cold and unemotional when their daughter is missing. Thats just another excuse.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

I know what lawyers do, as far as the practice of law is concerned. I've been involved in many situations my clients have needed advice on that does not concern the law (or least my representation of a client). For example, a client wanted advice on whether to allow his in-laws to adopt his daughter -- personal, not legal, advice. Another client wanted advice on whether he should join the army or chose some other path in life. Another client wanted advice on how to arrange transportation for himself and his children because his driver's license was suspended. Many clients just want a listening ear -- akin to a therapist. Sometimes clients need to be told what to do in their personal lives to prevent whatever has gone wrong in their lives from happening again. I've had clients need advice on how to handle their marriages, their finances, their career paths, their children, and on and on.

I don't know if I'm making it clear, but some clients use their lawyers for problems other than legal ones.

If one of our client's had a child who was kidnapped, I'm fairly certain we would be one of the first people they called to help them. I'm 100% sure we would be there to do what we could, whether strictly legal services were required or not. We do have lots of contacts that could be helpful in a situation like that, for example. We also have business degrees and backgrounds that would be helpful in handling finances and mapping out a strategy of how to deal with the situation.

Lawyers are required to defend people or prove their innocence when a crime is committed, or in other areas such as purchasing property, suing someone, why would you need legal advice to find your daughter, there is something that doesnt sit right with hiring lawyers for the investigation into the disappearance of someone if you have nothing to hide and I think they are hiding something.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I dont understand how your training to be a professional squashes your personal emotions in relation to your family, sure, if you are a doctor you see a lot of sadness and have to learn to separate that from your home life, but how can someone look so cold and unemotional when their daughter is missing. Thats just another excuse.

I didn't say they didn't have feelings towards their children, what I am saying is you might not understand their emotions in public. When you tell people daily their child, mother, father, sister, brother, is going to die with a sense of decorum...you have to develop the ability to do so with some grace. This would carry over in their personal life. Faced with tragedy of their own...the only way to face it is to revert back to a place where they can mentally cope which for a Doctor is to be unattached and look at things from their spector. We can't imagine how they went there in the first place...therefore we cannot judge how they can go back there. It is simply the way the human brain works in times of severe stresses.

 

[Shazza]

I know what lawyers do, as far as the practice of law is concerned. I've been involved in many situations my clients have needed advice on that does not concern the law (or least my representation of a client). For example, a client wanted advice on whether to allow his in-laws to adopt his daughter -- personal, not legal, advice. Another client wanted advice on whether he should join the army or chose some other path in life. Another client wanted advice on how to arrange transportation for himself and his children because his driver's license was suspended. Many clients just want a listening ear -- akin to a therapist. Sometimes clients need to be told what to do in their personal lives to prevent whatever has gone wrong in their lives from happening again. I've had clients need advice on how to handle their marriages, their finances, their career paths, their children, and on and on.

I don't know if I'm making it clear, but some clients use their lawyers for problems other than legal ones.

If one of our client's had a child who was kidnapped, I'm fairly certain we would be one of the first people they called to help them. I'm 100% sure we would be there to do what we could, whether strictly legal services were required or not. We do have lots of contacts that could be helpful in a situation like that, for example. We also have business degrees and backgrounds that would be helpful in handling finances and mapping out a strategy of how to deal with the situation.

I do understand what you are saying but I dont share the same opinion, before I called a Lawyer I would call PI's, my local ombudsman, the police chief, SES, volunteers, I would get as many searchers out there as quickly as possible. A Lawyer would have never entered my mind. I would even try and get hold of our Prime Minister to get permission to get as many hands on people out there looking for my child by air, sea, land. Sorry if that offends you but it is not my intention, but I dont see what a lawyer can do to find a missing child.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

No, you haven't offended me. I am friends with the police chief, and I know lots of great PI's, newspaper reporters and editors, tv people, physicians, other lawyers, search organizations, and so forth. I'd be a good resource -- and if I didn't know someone who could help, I'd soon find that person or organization.

I'd be seriously listened to, too, simply because I am an attorney. That has always surprised me, but it's a fact of life that I like.

I do understand what you are saying but I dont share the same opinion, before I called a Lawyer I would call PI's, my local ombudsman, the police chief, SES, volunteers, I would get as many searchers out there as quickly as possible. A Lawyer would have never entered my mind. I would even try and get hold of our Prime Minister to get permission to get as many hands on people out there looking for my child by air, sea, land. Sorry if that offends you but it is not my intention, but I dont see what a lawyer can do to find a missing child.

 

[Shazza]

I didn't say they didn't have feelings towards their children, what I am saying is you might not understand their emotions in public. When you tell people daily their child, mother, father, sister, brother, is going to die with a sense of decorum...you have to develop the ability to do so with some grace. This would carry over in their personal life. Faced with tragedy of their own...the only way to face it is to revert back to a place where they can mentally cope which for a Doctor is to be unattached and look at things from their spector. We can't imagine how they went there in the first place...therefore we cannot judge how they can go back there. It is simply the way the human brain works in times of severe stresses.

Okay, so these guys can control their emotions, I am a very emotional and caring person and am probably only looking at this from my point of view. I wouldnt be able to front the media, I would have to be sedated, sounds like I am unstable but that is how I would handle not knowing what had happened to one of my girls if they went missing or worse.
But that doesnt explain the discrepancies in thier stories, that is why I personally think the lawyers are called upon.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I know what lawyers do, as far as the practice of law is concerned. I've been involved in many situations my clients have needed advice on that does not concern the law (or least my representation of a client). For example, a client wanted advice on whether to allow his in-laws to adopt his daughter -- personal, not legal, advice. Another client wanted advice on whether he should join the army or chose some other path in life. Another client wanted advice on how to arrange transportation for himself and his children because his driver's license was suspended. Many clients just want a listening ear -- akin to a therapist. Sometimes clients need to be told what to do in their personal lives to prevent whatever has gone wrong in their lives from happening again. I've had clients need advice on how to handle their marriages, their finances, their career paths, their children, and on and on.

I don't know if I'm making it clear, but some clients use their lawyers for problems other than legal ones.

If one of our client's had a child who was kidnapped, I'm fairly certain we would be one of the first people they called to help them. I'm 100% sure we would be there to do what we could, whether strictly legal services were required or not. We do have lots of contacts that could be helpful in a situation like that, for example. We also have business degrees and backgrounds that would be helpful in handling finances and mapping out a strategy of how to deal with the situation.

I believe you have some great points. hehehe I understand that people who have access to money will sometimes overlap their lawyer. I have seen it done many times. You start to answer legal questions which trail into moral questions which again trail into issues. You can't just leave them hanging because you are responsible for your first answer! LOL

 

[Shazza]

I understand lawyers have a lot of influence and contacts in high places. But one would only call a lawyer if they forsaw trouble which is my thinking here. Lawyers were called before searching parties etc, why.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

You don't seem to be the least bit unstable to me. People handle situations differently, but that is not to say that one way is bad or the other is good.

I would fall apart if one of my children were kidnapped. I don't know whether I'd be able to compartmentalize my feelings and cope with the situation in public after some days had passed, or not. I don't want to find out.

My sister, on the other hand, would be a complete basket case -- not because she is unstable, but because she is a very emotional person and is not able to function well if she is distraught.

These are simply differences in people's temperaments, I suppose.

Okay, so these guys can control their emotions, I am a very emotional and caring person and am probably only looking at this from my point of view. I wouldnt be able to front the media, I would have to be sedated, sounds like I am unstable but that is how I would handle not knowing what had happened to one of my girls if they went missing or worse.
But that doesnt explain the discrepancies in thier stories, that is why I personally think the lawyers are called upon.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

I don't know why. I thought I'd read that the searches started immediately. I thought the lawyers were called in soon, but after some days had passed. At any rate, I don't know why -- beyond what the McCanns have said.

I understand lawyers have a lot of influence and contacts in high places. But one would only call a lawyer if they forsaw trouble which is my thinking here. Lawyers were called before searching parties etc, why.

 

[Shazza]

You don't seem to be the least bit unstable to me. People handle situations differently, but that is not to say that one way is bad or the other is good.

I would fall apart if one of my children were kidnapped. I don't know whether I'd be able to compartmentalize my feelings and cope with the situation in public after some days had passed, or not. I don't want to find out.

My sister, on the other hand, would be a complete basket case -- not because she is unstable, but because she is a very emotional person and is not able to function well if she is distraught.

These are simply differences in people's temperaments, I suppose.

There was something else said in an earlier post that bothers me, it was said,

"The McCanns stated that they were totally devastated at first, until they found that they could do something to help find their daughter".

They were devastated at first, how can you just cut of that devastation.