Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 8

[colomom]

I'd like to know how big this bloodstain was. Drops? Splatter? The article I posted is really interesting. I know LE can distinguish different types of crimes by checking blood patterns. You can tell, for instance, if someone died as the result of a murder. But how can they tell that her death was an accident and not murder?

I think we're going to see a dramatic change in the whole investigation by the end of the week. If the bloodstain on the wall was fairly big, don't be surprised if the PJ finally demands that the McCanns submit themselves to being separated and severely questioned. Because IMO there is no way Madeleine's death could be caused by an outside suspect.

Cali,

Blood on the wall? Doubtful it would be drops, more likely splatter. I did read on the Mirror board someone (with no link) mentioned "fine spray", hence my thought about frantic attempt at resuscitation.

 

[CaliKid]

Let's say I went somewhere and left my child home. If I returned, my child was missing and blood was on the wall, I wouldn't clean it up and say nothing about the blood when I called the police. On the other hand, I suppose a kidnapper might have cleaned up the blood and the wall dried before KM walked into the apartment. But this goes right back to questioning why someone would leave Madeleine's body there for two or more hours.

 

[CaliKid]

I wonder if someone got rough with her and threw her against a wall?

 

[philamena]

Can someone point me to the post number of the article that says blood was found in the rental apartment? TIA.

 

[Morag]

Does anyone recall what sort of physician Russell O'Brien is? I would be very interested to learn if he is an ER doctor. And wasn't he the person who checked on the kids after Gerry but before Kate?

The utterance "they've taken Madeleine" would have a particular meaning in the case of an accident which would require moving or removing Madeleine from her room.

And I never recall hearing/reading that all the other docs rushed to their rooms to check on the well-being of their own kids immediately after learning that Madeleine had disappeared. It was always indicated that they immediately rushed to look for Madeleine, rather than to ascertain that their children were unharmed.

One of these (new today) translated articles says that there has been extensive cross-checking of Murat's telephone records for the evening of the disappearance, and that they seem to clear him. Interesting, if true.
And another of the articles indicates that they have tidal experts checking into the beach (toward which the child-carrying, tan pants wearing man who was seen by the Irish ex-pat who knew Murat.) Dogs (perhaps early on, sorry, not sure) apparently followed Madeleine's scent across that part of the beach... This is sounding more and more like a pact of silence situation...

Yet from the start, the police were mentioning a British pedophile connection, and the strange coincidence of Murat's sister and the O'Briens living in the same village in Exeter...


I wonder if it is possible to detect medication in blood found under such circumstances?

 

[CaliKid]

Can someone point me to the post number of the article that says blood was found in the rental apartment? TIA.

Here is a better-translated article than the one I found last night:

in Jornal de Noticias this morning:

http://jn.sapo.pt/2007/08/06/p....._cann.html

Blood in the McCanns’ bedroom

Madeline McCann can have died for accident in the room of the Ocean Club, in the Algarve, where she was installed with the parents, she advances the Periodical of Notice in its edition of today[/b]

Traces of blood from a dead person, presumably from little Madeleine, have been discovered on a wall in the bedroom that was occupied by the McCann couple, in the apartment at the ‘Ocean Club’, in Lagos, from where the girl vanished on May 3. This fact locates the child’s death inside the apartment, but the investigators do not take it as certain that this was a homicide, although according to the clues that were collected by forensics experts, somebody tried to clean up these traces. On the contrary, JN knows that the explanation that is seen as more likely at the moment to explain Maddie’s death – practically given as certain – is that this was an accident.

New elements of proof were apparently discovered early last week, through the use of dogs that are specially trained to detect the biological residues of dead persons, independently of the time that has passed after they were left. Investigators are convinced that the blood belongs to Madeleine, but they wait for more detailed analysis in order to confirm their suspicions.

The day before yesterday and in the early morning yesterday, the McCanns’ apartment was still being subject to intense technical examinations by the PJ’s technical staff, namely using ultra-violet light sources. JN could witness that numerous pictures were also taken.

New interrogations

The discovery has led to an entirely new perspective on this case and may focus the investigation on the child’s family circle and the McCanns’ close friends. The possibility of new interrogations on these persons has not been dismissed.

Almost 100 days after the english girl disappeared, while her parents were dining in a restaurant that is located approximately 50 metres from the apartment, the case investigation seems to be coming close to its final. It is now clear to the Policia Judiciaria that the child’s death happened inside the bedroom. But there is still a lot of doubt concerning the body’s destiny.

Intense searches made during the last days in the garden of Robert Murat’s house, were an attempt at clearing this aspect, but apparently without any results. Yet, JN knows that the searches will intensify over the next days, in various locations. Many of these, that were already inspected before, will be analysed again by the dog that was brought in from England.

Joana case

But the discovery of the body may not be determinant in order to close this case. We just have to remember the case of Joana, the 8-year old girl that disappeared from the village of Figueira, in Portimao, in September 2004. Her body was never found, but her mother, Leonor Cipriano, and her brother were condemned to prison for 20 years and 4 months, and 19 years and 2 months, respectively.

Contamination eliminated

JN also knows that one of the main concerns of the investigators was to eliminate any doubts about a possible contamination of evidence, which has been done succesfully.

Since the day Madeleine disappeared, dozens of people went through the McCanns’ apartment, including police, family, friends, hotel staff and even dogs.

In the investgation’s initial phase, over 300 biological residues were collected by elements fron the Judiciaria’s Scientific Police, and then analysed at the Instituto de Medicina Legal.

Even after the inspectors’ work in the apartment was considered finished, there were other people inside. Since June 11, the apartment was rented to other couples on holidays by the ‘Ocean Club’.

JN knows that any possibility of clue contamination was definitely dismissed.

Dogs distinguish residues of dead people

They are trained to detect biological residues and they are able to tell whether these belong to a living or a dead person. The dogs that were brought to Praia da Luz by english police can trace corpses, or even a skeleton. The resies’ age is not a problem either. Therefore, their capacity is extremely important. “These dogs were trained just for this function”, a source with GNR said, adding that this mission “is not specific for one dog race”, but “is all about the training that is given”. In Portugal, there are no dogs trained for this type of action, but according to our source, “that is a future goal”. The sniffer dogs that are used by GNR and PSP are trained to detect people’s odors. “The person may be alive, and that makes it easier for the dog. If the person is dead, the animal can only detect her smell if the death is recent”, the same source explained. In the searches that were done in the garden of Robert Murat’s house over the last two days, english police used a border collie race sniffer dog. In order to evaluate if the soil was hiding anything, holes of half a metre were made, using steel cables, but the animals detected nothing.

Robert Murat is confident and continues to plead his innocence

Francisco Pagarete, Robert’s lawyer, did not offer any comments on the processual diligences that were done in the garden of Casa Liliana. He assured that they “counted on the collaboration from Robert Murat and his mother”. Not speaking many words, the lawyer also pointed out that the arguido was “cooperative” and by the end of the actions he was “confident and satisfied”. Now, according to Francisco Pagarete, Murat awaits the result of the diligences “in order to quickly prove his innocence”. The diligences may determine the change of the coaction measure that was applied to Robert Murat. The police is still trying to discover whether or not there is a connection between the anglo-portuguese man and the McCanns or their friends.

 

[CaliKid]

Does anyone recall what sort of physician Russell O'Brien is? I would be very interested to learn if he is an ER doctor. And wasn't he the person who checked on the kids after Gerry but before Kate?

The utterance "they've taken Madeleine" would have a particular meaning in the case of an accident which would require moving or removing Madeleine from her room.

And I never recall hearing/reading that all the other docs rushed to their rooms to check on the well-being of their own kids immediately after learning that Madeleine had disappeared. It was always indicated that they immediately rushed to look for Madeleine, rather than to ascertain that their children were unharmed.

One of these (new today) translated articles says that there has been extensive cross-checking of Murat's telephone records for the evening of the disappearance, and that they seem to clear him. Interesting, if true.
And another of the articles indicates that they have tidal experts checking into the beach (toward which the child-carrying, tan pants wearing man who was seen by the Irish ex-pat who knew Murat.) Dogs (perhaps early on, sorry, not sure) apparently followed Madeleine's scent across that part of the beach... This is sounding more and more like a pact of silence situation...

Yet from the start, the police were mentioning a British pedophile connection, and the strange coincidence of Murat's sister and the O'Briens living in the same village in Exeter...

Isn't RO the anesthesiologist?

And yes, they're looking into a new suspect who they believe to be the tan-pants man who was seen carrying Madeleine.

 

[colomom]

From the Mirror Forum:

Let's assume for the sake of argument, and I know some will argue, that the cadaver dogs did indeed find traces in the apartment. Let us further assume that the McCanns told the truth about leaving the children about 8 to go to dinner and did indeed check every half hour and Kate found Madeleine missing at ten.

What can we deduce? For the cadaver dog to find a trace, the body must have been there for at least 2 hours but let's assume that the dog is brilliant and it took one and a half hours to get the scent from the body.

Kate found Madeleine missing at 10 so lets say the body had to be removed but 9.55 at the latest. So, death must have occurred by 8.25. This means that death must have happened between 8.00 and 8.25.

So, whoever killed her must either have
1. Remained in the apartment with the body for an hour and a half. So, when the children were checked at 8.30. 9.00 and 9.30 the killer was still there. That would mean the check was not very thorough.
2. The killer left and returned again and hour and a half later. I know some criminals are not very bright but that wold be an incredible act of stupidity.

These are the only options for a stranger being there. Neither is really credible. So, we have to realize, if the McCann party is telling the whole truth the killer cannot be a stranger. Or, the McCann party is being economical with the truth.

 

[CaliKid]

I read somewhere (sorry no links I can easily find) that the McCanns met for dinner an hour later that night than they usually do. Normally 7:30, but on May 3 it was 8:30.

From the Daily Mirror in the UK: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...tml?in_article_id=473408&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

 

[englishleigh]

I am afraid to post anything right now, I think we need to exercise caution. I was over on the Mirror forum and they are immediately deleting threads that are accusatory of the McCanns. The Mirror has normally been very open-minded. Let's all use "In my humble opinion", alot.

English,

Consider, accident but with blood, say bloody nose, then unconsiousness. Frantice attempt at resuscitation, shaking, slapping face....blood splatters on the wall (IMHO of course).

Enough for now, I am sending you a huge hug because I feel your pain.

Hang in there everyone, let's see how this all plays out.

You're right. I don't for a moment think they did anything deliberately. I just think they know, in my humblest of opinions, more than they are saying.

 

[Jdee]

Well according to the staff nobody from the table ever checked on the kids. So that would explain a lot.

 

[BethInAK]

Then why try to clean it up? If an intruder was suspected it would be brought to the attention of the police, no?

The kidnapper might clean it. For whatever reason.

 

[colomom]

I read somewhere (sorry no links I can easily find) that the McCanns met for dinner an hour later that night than they usually do. Normally 7:30, but on May 3 it was 8:30.

From the Daily Mirror in the UK: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...tml?in_article_id=473408&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

I know it is confusing but, change the times, play with the numbers...

I guess the main thing that jumped out at me from that post was the:

So, whoever killed her must either have
1. Remained in the apartment with the body for an hour and a half. So, when the children were checked at 8.30. 9.00 and 9.30 the killer was still there. That would mean the check was not very thorough.
2. The killer left and returned again and hour and a half later. I know some criminals are not very bright but that wold be an incredible act of stupidity.

The time that a dead body would have to have been in the apartment for the dogs to detect it does not fit with the story that the McCanns have told. Why would the McCanns have lied?

 

[Reannan]

I can't for the life of me imagine the parents accidentally or intentionally killing her, cleaning up the crime scene, and then going to dinner an hour latter as if nothing had happened! And where were the twins during all of this? Nothing, absolutely nothing, makes any sense about this story. I would be more inclined to think that perhaps someone in the party stayed behind and somehow caused the death. Perhaps the McCann's suspect this person, but have been reluctant to name him or her? That doesn't make any sense either, unless you factor in some sort of shady activity that THEY would be implicated in, which would cause them to loose their two remaining children if they told what they suspect....or perhaps even know.....truly happened. This scenario sort of fits the attitude of the parents in my minds eye. They are on a mission, obviously, but perhaps it is to put this behind them and keep custody of the two remaining children? They are definintely sad.....especially Kate, and I have seen occasional sadness from Gerry, but he seems more "focused" and "mission oriented" than sad. Then again, maybe that is just the way they handle grief. The only thing I know for sure, is that Maddie is gone, and we don't know where. I desperately want her to be OK, and to be safe and sound. The best case scenario is for her to have been abducted by a childless couple who wanted her to love. That doesn't appear to be very high on the probability list. The worst case scenario is that she is dead. If that is the case, the next best thing for Maddie is for the truth to be told, and justice be served......whatever the facts reveal the final truth and justice to be.

 

[colomom]

The kidnapper might clean it. For whatever reason.

I don't think so...

A kidnapper breaks into an apartment and accidently kills the child in the attempt at abduction or in the commission of another crime. Remember, the body would have to stay in the apartment for a minimum of 1.5 hours for the dog to detect it. So the kidnapper cleans the blood off the walls, hangs out, even hides out when the T9 do their checks, then takes the body out of the apartment and walks down the street with it???

Does that sit right with you? Not me....

 

[CaliKid]

I don't think so...

A kidnapper breaks into an apartment and accidently kills the child in the attempt at abduction or in the commission of another crime. Remember, the body would have to stay in the apartment for a minimum of 1.5 hours for the dog to detect it. So the kidnapper cleans the blood off the walls, hangs out, even hides out when the T9 do their checks, then takes the body out of the apartment and walks down the street with it???

Does that sit right with you? Not me....

It doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[BethInAK]

I don't think so...

A kidnapper breaks into an apartment and accidently kills the child in the attempt at abduction or in the commission of another crime. Remember, the body would have to stay in the apartment for a minimum of 1.5 hours for the dog to detect it. So the kidnapper cleans the blood off the walls, hangs out, even hides out when the T9 do their checks, then takes the body out of the apartment and walks down the street with it???

Does that sit right with you? Not me....

Yes, the hour and a half does put a monkey in the works.

 

[Morag]

Perhaps the person who caused/witnessed her death wanted to give someone else a chance to find the body...and when no one checked on the kids or no one noticed anything, then the body was moved. That would explain the dogs' being able to detect the scent- the body was not moved for a while.

 

[CaliKid]

http://ionglobaltrends.blogspot.com/search/label/Madeleine%20McCann

There is a Portuguese woman named Isabel who posts comments on Aussie Mike's blog. She says the news is flying through Portugal about the blood found in the Ocean Club apartment and EVERYONE there believes that the McCanns had something to do with Madeleine's death.

When the McCanns took the twins to the creche this morning they were approached by a journalist and hurried away, covering their faces and the twins' faces so pictures couldn't be taken. Isabel also says if this new information leads to GM's arrest, he will need to be put in protective custody because the nation is out for his blood. They are so invested in Madeleine's safety that they're demanding justice for her and want someone to pay.

 

[BethInAK]

http://ionglobaltrends.blogspot.com/search/label/Madeleine McCann

There is a Portuguese woman named Isabel who posts comments on Aussie Mike's blog. She says the news is flying through Portugal about the blood found in the Ocean Club apartment and EVERYONE there believes that the McCanns had something to do with Madeleine's death.

When the McCanns took the twins to the creche this morning they were approached by a journalist and hurried away, covering their faces and the twins' faces so pictures couldn't be taken. Isabel also says if this new information leads to GM's arrest, he will need to be put in protective custody because the nation is out for his blood. They are so invested in Madeleine's safety that they're demanding justice for her and want someone to pay.

I dont' blame them. The worlds view of portugal has certainly be tainted by this crime - so many people gave their hearts and money to the McCanns.

I have a question though: Why wasnt' the blood found right away? Doesn't it seem odd that all of a sudden there is Madeleine's blood on the wall of the apartment 100 days after she went missing? And if it was always there and they always knew, why were they investigating Murat so heavily?