Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[Estelle]

GoldenGirl, could you elaborate a bit more please or provide me with some links about the maintenance man theory?

I have that same itchy feeling that this was the job of somebody with inside knowledge. A crazy thought that I can't let go of, is that Maddie's body is still under Apartment 5A (or under block 5). Just look at how the building is constructed (up against a hill), which leaves a triangular shaped space beneath it. Or, put in another way, if you climb up the staircase to the patio of 5A, what sits behind the wall directly to your right, i.e. under the patio? This area is very well sealed, so smells don't get out, but the space could be accessible by a maintenance man, e.g. to repair the heating/radiator pipes going below the floors. If her body was dumped in that space, then it could explain why the cadaver dogs reacted in the area behind the sofa, since that's where there could be heating pipes going down (although I don't see any heating radiators on the pictures, did they use floor heating? Is there no central heating at all?) and some 'smell of death' could have slipped through. It could also explain the strange route the sniffer dogs took on May 4th/8th of 2007, i.e. outside the front door, to the left and then again go around the block. What if there is some maintenance entry into that area to which only that guy has a key?

Has this area/space under the block ever been checked?

Its seems its a race to get a result, the PJ looking for remains? NSY looking for scapegoats to lay the blame. The hurry on the latter, is to get a result before the libel trial resumes? As each day goes by I am more convinced that NSY are working against getting to the truth.

 

[Pisces Cloud]

For that, that she died in apartment and dogs scented there, there should be a time for developing a cadaver scent, 4 hours at least and in young children maybe even never because they have a lack of muscle mass.

So she should have been lying dead in that apartment for more than 4++ hours or even longer for the dogs to find the cadaver.

These dogs also both react to dry blood from live humans. ( this is from the mouth of their trainer!)

It's no secret with regards to allegations of corruption in the Portuguese police department. Is it possible that a scent could have been planted? I get the impression that the McCanns just rubbed them up the wrong way right from the word go, and that got worse when criticisms concerning their initial investigation set in. I read in the Telegraph yesterday that the Inspector admitted that they'd been suspicious of the McCanns right at the beginning, mainly because they got the media involved. He also seemed irked because they left the children. So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the investigation was clouded by that dislike, especially when you also figure in someone like Amaral. Who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him.

 

[Estelle]

IMO Gerry and Kate McCann are narcissistic parents

I should know as my father was a cerebral narcissist and my mother was a somatic narcissist. Luckily I did not inherit this but I suffered from it as I was supposed to be the eldest "Trophy Child" who they could show off about especially when I came first at school. I see similarities with Madeleine, Gerry and Kate as with me and my parents. To understand this case, you need to understand NARCISSISM.

Narcissists make deplorably bad parents. They are too focused on themselves to find children anything but an annoyance or a way to increase admiration and power. Many narcissists become parents either by accident or for some ill-thought out self-serving purpose.

Narcissists have two faces -- the one they wear in public, and the one they wear at home. Only those close to the narcissist have any idea there is more than one face. And the narcissist's children know best of all, because children - those who have the least power - are the ones the narcissist allows him or herself to be the least guarded around. A frequent frustration of children of narcissists is that everyone else thinks their mother or father is the most wonderful person ever, while at home their children suffer in silence with their parent's tantrums, disinterest and put-downs -- this is clearly NOT the most wonderful person if you truly know them -- not even close.

Narcissistic parents view and treat their children only as extensions or reflections of themselves. They see their children the way an advertiser sees a sign by the side of the road - as something to put their name on and use to build themselves up, or as something someone else is responsible for that they can ignore if they aren't interested.

Some narcissistic parents are controlling and engulf their children. Others simply ignore their children and wish they would go away. However, all narcissistic parents fail to treat their children as authentic individuals who have their own unique characteristics and needs. Narcissists treat their children as mere blank screens for projecting their own internal "movies" onto.

There are narcissistic parents who deny their children's existence by insisting their children be and do what THEY want, and there are those who deny their children's existence by simply ignoring their children altogether. (Many narcissistic parents do both alternately, depending on which circumstances serve them best.)

Because narcissists' families are centered around the whims and wishes of a truly self-centered parent, they are highly dysfunctional and do not allow children to question the parent or express their needs. Most narcissists treat their children badly in a few key ways -- emotional abuse, excessive parental control and parental neglect are all typical of narcissistic parents.

Narcissists cannot see their actual children and do not accept their needs. The narcissistic father who looks at his son and sees not an active, athletic little boy who is brilliantly gifted in sports and outdoor activities who needs more playtime, but an inanimate lump of clay he will shape into a doctor to brag about is just one of many examples of narcissistic parenting. (The reverse is often true as well; whatever the parent values takes priority.) The narcissistic mother who criticizes and hides behind a veneer of martyrdom when her child needs her support is another common manifestation of a narcissistic parent.

Narcissists typically treat their children as if they're not good enough, and yet when the child does do well, the parent will either ignore and deny the event or take all the credit for it. (A common exception to the general rule of being treated as inferior is the treatment of the family "golden child", whom the narcissistic parent will treat as exceptional, superior and entitled.)

It's not uncommon for narcissists to be somewhat more agreeable as parents when their children are younger and easier to control. Many children of narcissistic parents report that their parents weren't as emotionally abusive when the children were young preschoolers - or were pre-adolescents. Some narcissists pay plenty of attention to small children, who make excellent captive audiences that narcissists find fun to impress and manipulate, only to completely turn away from (or turn against) those same children in later years. However, some narcissists dislike all children on the whole and have no interest in them at any age. To these narcissists, all children are viewed as nothing but an annoyance.

Narcissists don't like to be questioned and don't want to deal with children who can stand up for themselves. It's common for some narcissistic parents to become more abusive toward their children when the children reach the age of reason (about 7 years old) or when the children enter into puberty, which many of these parents find very psychologically threatening.

Adult children of narcissists typically describe their parents as mean, phony, self-absorbed, judgmental, dishonest, immature and manipulative.

 

[goldengirl57]

GoldenGirl, could you elaborate a bit more please or provide me with some links about the maintenance man theory?

I have that same itchy feeling that this was the job of somebody with inside knowledge. A crazy thought that I can't let go of, is that Maddie's body is still under Apartment 5A (or under block 5). Just look at how the building is constructed (up against a hill), which leaves a triangular shaped space beneath it. Or, put in another way, if you climb up the staircase to the patio of 5A, what sits behind the wall directly to your right, i.e. under the patio? This area is very well sealed, so smells don't get out, but the space could be accessible by a maintenance man, e.g. to repair the heating/radiator pipes going below the floors. If her body was dumped in that space, then it could explain why the cadaver dogs reacted in the area behind the sofa, since that's where there could be heating pipes going down (although I don't see any heating radiators on the pictures, did they use floor heating? Is there no central heating at all?) and some 'smell of death' could have slipped through. It could also explain the strange route the sniffer dogs took on May 4th/8th of 2007, i.e. outside the front door, to the left and then again go around the block. What if there is some maintenance entry into that area to which only that guy has a key?

Has this area/space under the block ever been checked?

It was article finally on Joana Morais I read it again about the maintenance man. I hadnt realised before that he had pointed to Roma gypsies etc for burglary. Everytime someone points to someone else it is usually because they are guilty or lying about something.

........................................................................................

Luis F. M. Ferro - Maintenance worker - Date of statement May 7, 2007

Comes to the case records and in the quality of a witness. That he is a maintenance worker at the tourist resort "Ocean Club" since March 2006. That in this tourist resort he is in charge of he maintenance of pools and all that relates with the properties. That in the sequence of of his work he moves around the whole resort, without restrictions, and that he knows it fairly well. Asked, he states that he is aware of the disappearance of the English girl named Madeleine, and that he learned about it on May 4 through the news in the media. He states that he worked at the resort close to 15h30 on the day of the girl's disappearance. Asked, the deponent refers that in the scope of his work and before the day of the girl's disappearance, he has only met the mother, whose name he does not know. This took place on a Tuesday, May 1, in the sequence of a maintenance job that he had to do inside the apartment where the family where lodged, that is, in block G5 letter A. That job was carried out between 10h and 11h, by the deponent and one colleague of his, that he only knows as Mario, and consisted in the repairment of the shutters from the parents bedroom. Following that they also taught the mother of the girl how to operate the washing machine. The lady in question was alone in the apartment. The only rooms in the apartment where he and his colleague were was in the kitchen and in the parents' bedroom. The deponent states that besides that job he does not know if any other work was carried out at the apartment since the arrival of the family to the resort until the day of the girl's disappearance. Asked he states that in the days preceding the girl's disappearance no one had any strange conversations with him related to the tourists, their children, the apartment, the facilities or the running of the resort. He also did not hear conversations of that nature to any other people. On the presence of a person or persons that would have exhibited a strange behaviour the deponent states that he did not see anything unusual. He just refers that, about four months ago, he detected the presence of three gipsies, near a warehouse of the resort, located close by the "Millenium" restaurant, who were trying to take some firewood that was there. The deponent knows that because that area is a warehouse zone and as such has few people circulating, it is usual for individuals of gipsy ethnicity to wander around there searching for scraps. Several thefts have taken place in that area and the deponent believes that their authorship lies with those individuals of gipsy ethnicity whose identifications are unknown to him. Asked, the deponent states that since the disappearance of the girl, Madeleine, until today he has not heard any comments that could help enlighten the motive of the disappearance, and as such, he has no other information that could contribute to that end. And more he didn't say.

FOUND HERE.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/english-police-follows-gipsy-lead.html

.................................................................................

The thing is the maintenance men will have full access to keys etc, and empty apartments. I am sure the child ended up in the empty apartment above the McCanns the dog indicated outside. Mind you poor man its only a theory like everyone elses, but there were more then one maintenance men. Thought it was odd he wasnt sure of the name of the guy he was working with?

Your point about air space is a very good one and the cadaver scent.

Anyway since i had my epithany the news could be its an ex employee who died in a tractor accident 2009, but this doesnt seem clarified. Usually any news of interest is translated by Joana its not up yet and the news was mentioned yesterday.

All very odd.....

 

[haden]

For that, that she died in apartment and dogs scented there, there should be a time for developing a cadaver scent, 4 hours at least and in young children maybe even never because they have a lack of muscle mass.

So she should have been lying dead in that apartment for more than 4++ hours or even longer for the dogs to find the cadaver.

These dogs also both react to dry blood from live humans. ( this is from the mouth of their trainer!)[/QUOTE]

BBM1 Please give me a link to that as it is less in in young children.

BBM2: Please give me a link to that too as there are many types of dogs - sniffer dogs and cadaver dogs.

Rigor mortis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. All muscles in the body are affected. Starting between two and six hours following death, rigor mortis begins with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. The sequence may be due to different lactic acid levels among different muscles, which is directly related to the difference in glycogen levels and different types of muscle fibers. Rigor mortis then spreads to the other muscles within the next four to six hours, including the internal organs. The onset of rigor mortis is affected by the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build. Rigor mortis may not be perceivable in many infant and child corpses due to their smaller muscle mass.[5].[5]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
(Martin Grime rogatory letters)
'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

 

[goldengirl57]

IMO this is ludicrous. What is the date of this?

Hi Estelle, yesterdays date. I am still waiting to see if it goes on Joana Morais as she would normally post stuff.

Its all very odd, just found a lot of forum people talking about it.

 

[goldengirl57]

IMO this is ludicrous. What is the date of this?

Ah found more information.

Sounds to me like your right a load of rubbish.

The guy wasnt even working in the OC at the time. They are saying he was sacked so he took a child out of revenge.....POSSIBLY.

Jeez........really.....he only lived 15 minutes away from PDL so he could have easily been there just talking to friends anything if he used his phone.

Oh well shant get too excited.

The guy is dead 4 years he cant answer can he. Easy patsy.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/44...-killed-in-tractor-accident-say-shock-reports

 

[haden]

It's no secret with regards to allegations of corruption in the Portuguese police department. Is it possible that a scent could have been planted? I get the impression that the McCanns just rubbed them up the wrong way right from the word go, and that got worse when criticisms concerning their initial investigation set in. I read in the Telegraph yesterday that the Inspector admitted that they'd been suspicious of the McCanns right at the beginning, mainly because they got the media involved. He also seemed irked because they left the children. So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the investigation was clouded by that dislike, especially when you also figure in someone like Amaral. Who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him.

In my opinion, no! And I followed the case from the day 1. I don't believe that team of PJ which worked on that case in that time would do that..

But the cadaver also wasn't found during the lab tests. What they found was at the places where dogs alerted was the DNA of 2 PJ staff who worked on the case and Gerry McCann, all living humans

 

[haden]

Ah found more information.

Sounds to me like your right a load of rubbish.

The guy wasnt even working in the OC at the time. They are saying he was sacked so he took a child out of revenge.....POSSIBLY.

Jeez........really.....he only lived 15 minutes away from PDL so he could have easily been there just talking to friends anything if he used his phone.

Oh well shant get too excited.

The guy is dead 4 years he cant answer can he. Easy patsy.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/44...-killed-in-tractor-accident-say-shock-reports

But most important thing you forgot to mention..

Although he wasn't working there no longer and had no reason to be there, his phone pings were found in the area on May 3rd and that is why he is suspected.

 

[Estelle]

In my opinion, no! And I followed the case from the day 1. I don't believe that team of PJ which worked on that case in that time would do that..

But the cadaver also wasn't found during the lab tests. What they found was at the places where dogs alerted was the DNA of 2 PJ staff who worked on the case and Gerry McCann, all living humans

Please give me a link to this as IMO it is incorrect.

 

[Estelle]

But most important thing you forgot to mention..

Although he wasn't working there no longer and had no reason to be there, his phone pings were found in the area on May 3rd and that is why he is suspected.

I think you have been brainwashed by the British media.

 

[Donjeta]

Rigor mortis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. All muscles in the body are affected. Starting between two and six hours following death, rigor mortis begins with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. The sequence may be due to different lactic acid levels among different muscles, which is directly related to the difference in glycogen levels and different types of muscle fibers. Rigor mortis then spreads to the other muscles within the next four to six hours, including the internal organs. The onset of rigor mortis is affected by the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build. Rigor mortis may not be perceivable in many infant and child corpses due to their smaller muscle mass.[5].[5]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
(Martin Grime rogatory letters)
'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

The question was about cadaver scent in small children though. Rigor mortis is not the same thing as cadaver scent and I don't think it is required for the decomposition odors to start to develop.

 

[Donjeta]

But most important thing you forgot to mention..

Although he wasn't working there no longer and had no reason to be there, his phone pings were found in the area on May 3rd and that is why he is suspected.

My cell phone pings have been in many, many locations that I don't work at and I've never abducted anyone...

 

[haden]

Please give me a link to this as IMO it is incorrect.

286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2
A DNA profile that appeared to be from at least two sources was obtained through LCN from cellular material recovered in that area. In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques. Breaking [departing] from the principle, for it to have had a DNA contribution from Lino Henriques then the remaining information in the smaller part of the result is too meagre to permit a meaningful interpretation.

(Lino Henriques is a Portuguese forensic analyst who collected the samples)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
A mixed DNA result, apparently originating from at least two persons, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result. In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
( Fernando Viegas also is a portuguese forensic analyst who worked on the case)
Also mentioning Gerry
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal of "Fact" 29

 

[haden]

My cell phone pings have been in many, many locations that I don't work at and I've never abducted anyone...

That is not my opinion... it is just the latest news from Portugal..

Nothing to do with me, this was just reported right now as a breaking news in Portugal as a reason the man was a suspect.. that he was sacked from OC, lived in Lagos and was no longer working in PDL but his phone pings were found in PDL that night.. we don't know whether this would be near Smiths sighting or not..or near the apartment or not.. they only say the PJ questioned his widow ( as he actually died in a tractor accident in 2009 which was suspicious death)
Also reported the police is searching where he could hide the body..

But this is from Correo da Manha, a TABLOID.. so not sure how much this should be trusted.. also there is a secrecy imposed at the new investigation so I doubt the inspectors would tell CdM about their searches.

There are also resports PJ is going to question OC staff again

 

[haden]

I don't think it is required for the decomposition odors to start to develop.

Do you have a link for your claim?

 

[Estelle]

That is not my opinion... it is just the latest news from Portugal..

Nothing to do with me, this was just reported right now as a breaking news in Portugal as a reason the man was a suspect.. that he was sacked from OC, lived in Lagos and was no longer working in PDL but his phone pings were found in PDL that night.. we don't know whether this would be near Smiths sighting or not..or near the apartment or not.. they only say the PJ questioned his widow ( as he actually died in a tractor accident in 2009 which was suspicious death)
Also reported the police is searching where he could hide the body..

But this is from Correo da Manha, a TABLOID.. so not sure how much this should be trusted.. also there is a secrecy imposed at the new investigation so I doubt the inspectors would tell CdM about their searches.

There are also resports PJ is going to question OC staff again

I am almost giving up now. I think it is going to be a whitewash by the UK government to protect their elite pedophiles in Parliament just as they did with Jimmy Saville and blame a dead person rather than the McCanns.

 

[Donjeta]

That is not my opinion... it is just the latest news from Portugal..

Nothing to do with me, this was just reported right now as a breaking news in Portugal as a reason the man was a suspect.. that he was sacked from OC, lived in Lagos and was no longer working in PDL but his phone pings were found in PDL that night.. we don't know whether this would be near Smiths sighting or not..or near the apartment or not.. they only say the PJ questioned his widow ( as he actually died in a tractor accident in 2009 which was suspicious death)
Also reported the police is searching where he could hide the body..

But this is from Correo da Manha, a TABLOID.. so not sure how much this should be trusted.. also there is a secrecy imposed at the new investigation so I doubt the inspectors would tell CdM about their searches.

There are also resports PJ is going to question OC staff again

I didn't say that it had anything to do with you.

Of course everything needs to be investigated but I can think of plenty of reasons for someone to visit a town he used to work at. He could have friends or favorite bars, stores etc. there even after he gets fired or it's just the cheapest place to get gas around there.

I dunno... disgruntled ex-employee theories never made much sense to me as abducting a child is such an indirect and ineffective way of taking revenge against your boss or whoever it was that you think wronged you. It's not the boss or the company who suffers the most, it's an innocent child and her family. The boss might experience some uncomfortable moments at a police interrogation and the company gets a bit of bad press but it will pass and their life will go on much as it did before. In the meantime, you have an extra child in your hands and need to solve the problem what to do with her. How many people are really prepared to murder a child just to cause a few uncomfortable moments but no lasting harm to their ex-boss?
I picture disgruntled ex-employees as more likely to set something on fire, do a nasty graffiti about the boss, steal the company property, throw dirty diapers in the pool or something that has more to do with the people whom you're mad at than a random child.

But I guess we might be talking about someone who is not rational and doesn't make decisions like normal people would.

 

[haden]

I didn't say that it had anything to do with you.

Of course everything needs to be investigated but I can think of plenty of reasons for someone to visit a town he used to work at. He could have friends or favorite bars, stores etc. there even after he gets fired or it's just the cheapest place to get gas around there.

I dunno... disgruntled ex-employee theories never made much sense to me as abducting a child is such an indirect and ineffective way of taking revenge against your boss or whoever it was that you think wronged you. It's not the boss or the company who suffers the most, it's an innocent child and her family. The boss might experience some uncomfortable moments at a police interrogation and the company gets a bit of bad press but it will pass and their life will go on much as it did before. In the meantime, you have an extra child in your hands and need to solve the problem what to do with her. How many people are really prepared to murder a child just to cause a few uncomfortable moments but no lasting harm to their ex-boss?
I picture disgruntled ex-employees as more likely to set something on fire, do a nasty graffiti about the boss, steal the company property, throw dirty diapers in the pool or something that has more to do with the people whom you're mad at than a random child.

But I guess we might be talking about someone who is not rational and doesn't make decisions like normal people would.

I agree with you 100%.
I think they are just making up news due to imposed secrecy and no real news coming from the PJ.

But if this is true, they might know something about this person what we don't know, and that is why they suspected him.. but I doubt this is relevant at all, being a news from a tabloid..

Edit Jerry Lawton ‏@JerryLawton 15m
The grudge attack theory was line of investigation Portuguese police presented to At Gen to get Madeleine #McCann case reopened, paper says

 

[Donjeta]

Do you have a link for your claim?

What claim, the "I don't think"? No, I don't have a link for my thoughts, other than what I've posted. But I think that you will see it makes sense. As your link on rigor mortis states not all bodies ever develop rigor mortis, depending on the conditions. However, that doesn't mean that these bodies won't decompose and won't start to stink.