Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[Salem]

MSM at the time got a lot wrong. It got so much wrong that in the end they paid out. If this is an official staff statement it should have appeared on the files. I havent yet seen it. Mrs Fenn did make a statement about hearing crying . That is in the files. But mostly what appeared in the newspapers around 2007/2008 was sensationalist and not based on fact. So to answer your question no I don't really trust what was written in the newspapers. Especially not uk tabs

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But do you trust Kate's word? She said Maddy asked her why she didn't come when she and her brother were crying for their parents.

And... its fine that you don't trust the media but the rules here are that we use MSM for our facts. So, others may rely on the media if they choose. It is a "rock and a hard place" type situation, kwim?

Salem

 

[haden]

two police dogs indicating foul play

Can you please post a link to prove this?

Government backed campaign telling the police and everyone else Maddy was abducted.
.

Can you post a link to prove this too?

 

[haden]

But do you trust Kate's word? She said Maddy asked her why she didn't come when she and her brother were crying for their parents.

And... its fine that you don't trust the media but the rules here are that we use MSM for our facts. So, others may rely on the media if they choose. It is a "rock and a hard place" type situation, kwim?

Salem

Why would not staff mention this in their police interviews, all of them were explicitly asked if they have seen something unusual or something about the family that is unusual?
No one mentioned this incident.

 

[Meteor]

Can you please post a link to prove this?


Can you post a link to prove this too?

The fact there is video evidence of Eddie finding evidence of the scent of a corpse at some point being in apartment 5A is enough to investigate. The dog is licensed by British authorities to do the work, if we are going to ignore the dog evidence then there is no point having them at all. Records state no one has died prior to the McCann's being in that apartment which is at least enough to begin an investigation of the dogs findings.
Your second point is rather a stupid one in the fact that the media and our own Government are ignoring the evidence gathered by the Portuguese in favour of the abduction campaign.

 

[haden]

I think it is quite interesting what the police can find out from the phone records and from bank transactions.

1. They can find out who was in PDL that day and has left PDL that day.
Even if the person has non recorded pay as you go mobile phone they can find out if they used the cash machine whose phone was near this machine.
2. They can find out who was near Smiths at the time they saw the man carrying the child
3. They can find out if someone was in PDL only for a day
4. They can find out who moved around the town at that time.

 

[Pisces Cloud]

Why would not staff mention this in their police interviews, all of them were explicitly asked if they have seen something unusual or something about the family that is unusual?
No one mentioned this incident.

Indeed. You would have thought that their Client Support Manager would have heard of any such incident. In fact what she did say is in the quote below, which I assume means before the night of the 3rd.

During the first part of their holiday there were no problems that were brought to my knowledge relating to their stay. I knew about their three children but I never had contact with them.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm

I don't think it was mentioned in Pamela Fenn's statement, either.

 

[haden]

The fact there is video evidence of Eddie finding evidence of the scent of a corpse at some point being in apartment 5A is enough to investigate. The dog is licensed by British authorities to do the work, if we are going to ignore the dog evidence then there is no point having them at all. Records state no one has died prior to the McCann's being in that apartment which is at least enough to begin an investigation of the dogs findings.
Your second point is rather a stupid one in the fact that the media and our own Government are ignoring the evidence gathered by the Portuguese in favour of the abduction campaign.

Eddies trainer and owner said that the both dogs would react to old blood from a human being who is alive.
The video shows Eddie alerting but alerting on what?
The blood that Eddie found was from the Portuguese police officer who collected the evidence.
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal of "Fact" 29

Martin Grime Rogatory Interview
The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.


The alerts by Eddie
In apartment 5A:
* between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
- at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom.
- at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.
Between 21h49 and 22h00, in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A, accessible from by way of the veranda and steps, the cadaver dog alerted in a garden-bed directly below the verandah.

Clothing and belongings Family McCann
* in two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY.
* in a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE.
* in the plush toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (it was detected cadaver odour, when the plush was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)
(note: watching the video of the dog and the alerts, the piece of clothing by the PJ attributed to Madeleine belongs probably in fact to her younger brother)

The car (hired by the McCanns on May 27th)
* signalled the key of the vehicle;
(note: though it's not mentioned in the PJ Report, watching the video shows the dog alerted to the lower part of the driver's door, in one compartment of which was the car's key card)


The alerts by Keela
Apartment 5A - 31.07.2007
* between 20h47 and 21.20 the "blood" dog alerted:
- at 21h10 in the lounge, specifically on the floor behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.

On the 1st of August a forensic team collected samples at the apartment. Here's the relevant part of their report :
Quote
He advised further that after the recovery of the tiles the animal specialised in detection of human blood should perform another search of the area from where the tiles had been recovered to verify [check for] the existence of possible human blood in the area from where the tiles had been lifted.

Apartment 5A 03.08.2007
19.19 The dog “marked” an area of tiles in the living room, next to the window and behind the sofa.
19.20 The dog “marked” the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.

The car (hired by the McCanns on May 27th)
* signalled the key of the vehicle;
* signalled the interior of the vehicle’s boot;


Analysis of alerts by the Central Division of Information Analysis - PJ who had their doubts about them.

Quote:

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.


Forensics
Nowhere in the forensics report is it mentioned that blood was found. DNA was identified but it wasn't Madeleine's. Most of the samples had to be analysed using LCN techniques, and in most (relevant) cases the material of the sample couldn't be identified.

On the samples three DNA profiles were identified:
- A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card(286C/2007-CRL(12)).
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.

All three of the above mentioned people are (were at the time) still very much alive. Fernando Viegas and Lino Henriques are Portuguese Forensic experts.


Compare MMRG statement with the actual FACTS

MMRG quote:
On British police advice, the Portuguese asked top dog handler Martin Grime to bring his springer spaniels, Eddie and Keela, to Praia da Luz.
Eddie is trained to detect the scent of human corpses; Keela is a bloodhound.
Eddie had never given a false alert in over 200 previous outings.
He alerted to the odour of a human corpse in these locations: four different places in the McCanns’ apartment, two of Dr Kate McCann’s clothes, one of the children’s T-shirts, on the pink soft toy, ‘Cuddle Cat’, and in two places in the car the McCanns hired.
Eddie did not alert to a corpse scent anywhere else in Praia da Luz.
Keela detected blood, which may have been Madeleine’s blood, at some of these places.

Actually:
On advice of Mark Harrison, the PJ asked a dog handler, Martin Grime, to bring his dogs to Praia da Luz.
Eddie is trained to search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood. The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination. Keela is indeed trained to detect blood. Both dogs will alert to dried blood of live human beings.
In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'. Yet in training the dog has alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains. That's according to the handler, Mr Grime. He hasn't provided any records of the dog's successes and failures to substantiate his claims. He worked at South Yorkshire Police Force from 2003 to August 2007. During that period he was deployed on 37 occasions. That's an average of 9 per year. Eddie was seven in 2007..........
He alerted to two different places in the McCanns’ apartment, the garden, two of Kate McCann’s clothes, one of the children’s T-shirts, on the pink soft toy, ‘Cuddle Cat’. He was not deployed in the car, so he didn't alert to two places in the car. He did however alert to the driver's door, in one compartment of which was the car's key card. Eddie alerted to the key card.
None of the alerts by Keela have been confirmed by forensics as being blood. No blood or DNA of Madeleine was found/identified. The DNA that was identified belongs to three living persons.
Portuguese forensics examined the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared. No vestige of blood was found.


Conclusion

The claims by the MMRG are both false and misleading. There's no forensic supporting evidence to verify what the dogs alerted to. The only DNA that was identified belongs to three (living) men. Is the MMRG suggesting that Madeleine is dead? Why would anybody want to declare a missing child dead without any evidence of such?

"Eddie did not alert to a corpse scent anywhere else in Praia da Luz". Is the MMRG suggesting that no one ever died in Praia da Luz?

 

[cobalt sky]

The fact there is video evidence of Eddie finding evidence of the scent of a corpse at some point being in apartment 5A is enough to investigate. The dog is licensed by British authorities to do the work, if we are going to ignore the dog evidence then there is no point having them at all. Records state no one has died prior to the McCann's being in that apartment which is at least enough to begin an investigation of the dogs findings.
Your second point is *********** in the fact that the media and our own Government are ignoring the evidence gathered by the Portuguese in favour of the abduction campaign.

BBM, stars by me. Remember, it was the Brits that gathered the sniffer dog evidence, not the Portuguese. So to me, it is very telling that SY is choosing to continue with an abduction theory despite THEIR OWN sniffer dog "evidence". So, they either dismissing the dog hits as unreliable/false, or they don't find the hits to be conclusive enough to be used as evidence. IMO.

 

[Meteor]

Eddie alerted to evidence of cadaver in 5A, he did not alert cadaver to any of the other apartments he was in. Regardless of the huge amount of data you have posted Eddie is licensed by the British authorities to be used in a criminal investigation. He is licensed because during his trials he has proven that he is competent at what he does. His evidence has been used in cases to convict people.
Like I said, we either trust Eddie or we don't. There is no middle ground.

 

[gord]

But do you trust Kate's word? She said Maddy asked her why she didn't come when she and her brother were crying for their parents.

And... its fine that you don't trust the media but the rules here are that we use MSM for our facts. So, others may rely on the media if they choose. It is a "rock and a hard place" type situation, kwim?

Salem

What do you consider MSM ? Especially here in the UK. The mail the sun the star 24 horas ? . I can get a ton of articles from them over the years that are just plain made up. We are quite lucky in this case that we have available official files and official statements unlike a lot of cases where all we have is the papers. I appreciate that you have to have rules and all that but surely what appears in the papers can't be counted as facts ?

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[gord]

Eddie alerted to evidence of cadaver in 5A, he did not alert cadaver to any of the other apartments he was in. Regardless of the huge amount of data you have posted Eddie is licensed by the British authorities to be used in a criminal investigation. He is licensed because during his trials he has proven that he is competent at what he does. His evidence has been used in cases to convict people.
Like I said, we either trust Eddie or we don't. There is no middle ground.

We dont arrest people and charge people on dogs evidence alone. If a drugs dog alerts you at tge airport you dont get charged without the police finding corrorative evidence. To say there is no middle ground just doesn't mean anything

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[Donjeta]

Oh I totally agree with you hun, but sure they said he was going to the creche like you said it makes no sense.

What i do find even more odd actually is the fact the guy could produce the childs PJ that she was wearing six years ago lol.

Maybe he has younger children who use the same clothes now. Or he reads the news and figured out that he was the prime suspect in the abduction and thought that he'd better hold on to the evidence in case anyone ever comes asking.

 

[Meteor]

We dont arrest people and charge people on dogs evidence alone. If a drugs dog alerts you at tge airport you dont get charged without the police finding corrorative evidence. To say there is no middle ground just doesn't mean anything

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Agreed, where dogs are used and results are obtained either way, those results form part of the larger investigation.
Dogs are used to try and establish if there is sufficient evidence to follow a particular line of inquiry.
In the case of Eddie in 5A that is what happened and he alerted. If the British are refusing to follow that line of inquiry then the 200 cases Eddie worked on all need to be retried because they are distrusting their own dogs.
There is no middle ground, the dogs are either brilliant or they are crap.

 

[haden]

Eddie alerted to evidence of cadaver in 5A, he did not alert cadaver to any of the other apartments he was in. Regardless of the huge amount of data you have posted Eddie is licensed by the British authorities to be used in a criminal investigation. He is licensed because during his trials he has proven that he is competent at what he does. His evidence has been used in cases to convict people.
Like I said, we either trust Eddie or we don't. There is no middle ground.

By the words of his owner in rogatory letters Eddie is alerting on dry blood.
When the places where Eddie alerted were investigated by scientists they found out the DNA belong to 3 men, Gerry McCann and two Portuguese Police officers. all three alive and well!
So, the DNA from the places Eddie alerted to were from living humans!

 

[Jmoose]

I trust Scotland Yard to know what they're doing with regards to investigating this case. I just don't believe that contacting them with crack-pot theories is going to help matters. I wonder how many people wasted their time with regards to the Tanner sighting, yet, it turns out that they believe that she did see a guy carrying a child. If SY are satisfied that Madeleine was abducted from her apartment then I don't really understand why people who are unconnected to the case think that they know better than them.

I didn't read that Scotland Yard detectives are convinced that abduction by stranger is the only avenue they are planning to investigate-they didn't say that they are now certain this is what occurred; just that they are investigating it as a possibility (maybe a distinct possibility, but not the only one). If they were looking at the McCanns, they wouldn't say so, any more than they would point to the abductor if they knew who it was.

 

[Pisces Cloud]

I didn't read that Scotland Yard detectives are convinced that abduction by stranger is the only avenue they are planning to investigate-they didn't say that they are now certain this is what occurred; just that they are investigating it as a possibility (maybe a distinct possibility, but not the only one). If they were looking at the McCanns, they wouldn't say so, any more than they would point to the abductor if they knew who it was.

Their main avenue does seem to be abduction, either planned or unplanned during a burglary. Anyhow, it mentions it again in the link below. So, I'm going to assume that is what they think is the most likely thing to have happened.

http://content.met.police.uk/Appeal...eal--October-2013/1400020463601/1400020541583

 

[Meteor]

By the words of his owner in rogatory letters Eddie is alerting on dry blood.
When the places where Eddie alerted were investigated by scientists they found out the DNA belong to 3 men, Gerry McCann and two Portuguese Police officers. all three alive and well!
So, the DNA from the places Eddie alerted to were from living humans!

Not by my understanding. Keela is the blood hound and Eddie is the Cadaver dog. Eddie by my understanding responds to enzymes and chemicals released two hours after a human body has expired and not necessarily blood.

 

[haden]

I didn't read that Scotland Yard detectives are convinced that abduction by stranger is the only avenue they are planning to investigate-they didn't say that they are now certain this is what occurred; just that they are investigating it as a possibility (maybe a distinct possibility, but not the only one). If they were looking at the McCanns, they wouldn't say so, any more than they would point to the abductor if they knew who it was.

Here is in this video DC Redwood says in his own words
"Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects”
38 Maddy suspects - YouTube

 

[haden]

Not by my understanding. Keela is the blood hound and Eddie is the Cadaver dog. Eddie by my understanding responds to enzymes and chemicals released two hours after a human body has expired and not necessarily blood.

Please! I am not sure where you got your information from but please read the the rogatory statement from Martin Grime
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

 

[jigzy]

D'you know, whether we believe the dogs or don't, one thing is the constant throughout this case, the bizarre behaviour of the main 2 players and the bizarre behaviour of many speaking in their defence. I have avoided 'news articles' mostly, extracting only things that come in quotation marks or are drawn illustrations by key players, and I have spent hours looking at footage of the parents speaking. I have never seen the parents of a missing child behave the way they do. KM had a new haircut and went jogging, GM stood at a flip chart with his wider agenda - just plain weird! Not to mention the dodgy 'pay our mortgage' fund, the wristbands and tee shirts, oh and going to Huelva on a quiet day and distributing posters in Portuguese whilst in Spain! Geez, you'd think the fund could pay for Spanish posters.

The one thing that made me sit up and take note of breakfast TV right after the night of the 3rd apart from the 'abduction' mantra by the media and the 'jemmied shutters' mantra, was the childcare 'expert' (whose name I made a note of somewhere at the time) telling the nation that leaving the children home alone whilst on holiday was perfectly acceptable and that the children were not put in danger and that the McC's were good parents nonetheless. I remember literally sitting bolt upright and saying WTF! The media seemed to be taking sides, and on it went.....

I disbelieve the McCanns because of what I have seen and heard.

Jmo