Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[Meteor]

Untrue. Eddie alerts on old/dried blood from live humans too.

Source: Madeleine Files, Martin Grime interview

That is incorrect.
If that was the case he would never have passed the Police trials and acquired his license to be used in convictions.
He doesn't respond to blood. What is the point in having Eddie and Keela in a team when both of them respond to blood? You might as well just have Keela the blood dog.
Eddie responds to enzymes and chemicals which make the 'death smell'. That death smell is released postmortem and the minimum is two hours after a body has expired for it to be released. Blood can be released from a human at anytime.
Cadaver dogs smell dead bodies and the chemicals associated with them not someone's casual nosebleed.
There is not a authority in this land that would give a dog a license to be used in prosecutions that could be confused by a nose bleed.

 

[jigzy]

I honestly don't think sleuthing the dad with the night crèche kid is going to do one bit of good.

I don't really care what direction he was going.

I care that SY have ruled out JT's sighting, and ruled in the Smiths sighting.

That is what's important here. Whether the PJ checked the night crèche or not, meh, hardly matters.

SY have checked it and proven Tanner to be a liar.

:sick:

I too don't 'care' which direction the bundle man was travelling, however it is crucial to the credibility of Tanner's sighting if the guy was collecting his child rather than dropping off, though I doubt that the general public would bother with the details. On face value her sighting comes across as having been based an an actual sighting of someone, rather than a made up piece of nonsense. I don't see this so much as an exposure of Tanner as a liar as clearing her name, showing us that she DID see a man and he IS real. Nothing to see here, move along now....

Something doesn't sit well with me regarding the bundle man. He took a long time to be found/come forward.

Will the Smiths-man be eliminated too? What then? Close the case and back to seeing the McCanns being spokespeople for missing children?

Not sure what I think about the SY investigation; I fluctuate between thinking that the net is closing in, and thinking that the whole thing will be a whitewash.

Jmo

 

[haden]

That is incorrect.
If that was the case he would never have passed the Police trials and acquired his license to be used in convictions.
He doesn't respond to blood. What is the point in having Eddie and Keela in a team when both of them respond to blood? You might as well just have Keela the blood dog.
Eddie responds to enzymes and chemicals which make the 'death smell'. That death smell is released postmortem and the minimum is two hours after a body has expired for it to be released. Blood can be released from a human at anytime.
Cadaver dogs smell dead bodies and the chemicals associated with them not someone's casual nosebleed.
There is not a authority in this land that would give a dog a license to be used in prosecutions that could be confused by a nose bleed.

Well, he said in his own words that they both do respond to dried blood from live humans.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

 

[Deleted member 39678]

That is incorrect.
If that was the case he would never have passed the Police trials and acquired his license to be used in convictions.
He doesn't respond to blood. What is the point in having Eddie and Keela in a team when both of them respond to blood? You might as well just have Keela the blood dog.
Eddie responds to enzymes and chemicals which make the 'death smell'. That death smell is released postmortem and the minimum is two hours after a body has expired for it to be released. Blood can be released from a human at anytime.
Cadaver dogs smell dead bodies and the chemicals associated with them not someone's casual nosebleed.
There is not a authority in this land that would give a dog a license to be used in prosecutions that could be confused by a nose bleed.

BBM

I've never heard of this time in how long it takes before an HRD dog can alert. Do you have a link that shows that it's a minimum of two hours.

 

[haden]

BBM

I've never heard of this time in how long it takes before an HRD dog can alert. Do you have a link that shows that it's a minimum of two hours.

I read on this last night, in children even might not happen.

 

[Cherwell]

I honestly don't think sleuthing the dad with the night crèche kid is going to do one bit of good.

I don't really care what direction he was going.

I care that SY have ruled out JT's sighting, and ruled in the Smiths sighting.

That is what's important here. Whether the PJ checked the night crèche or not, meh, hardly matters.

SY have checked it and proven Tanner to be a liar.

How do you make out that she is proven to be a liar?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I read on this last night, in children even might not happen.

I'm not sure what you mean. What might not happen in children?

 

[Meteor]

OK, lets look at this from a sensible approach. Eddie is a Cadaver dog which means he reacts to dead bodies basically. Here is an hypothetical where Eddie becomes useless according to other posters:
Eddie is used to find a dead body in a back garden and a possible dig for a body in a murder case in 2001.
Owner cuts her finger in 1992 pruning a rose = Big hole in ground
Owner grazes knee in 1993 and drop of blood hits floor = Big hole in ground
Owners grandson bangs head in 1994 and bleeds on floor = Big hole in ground
Neighbour cuts finger nailing fence and blood hits the ground = Another big hole and no body found.
1998, owners husband slices his finger off in hedge trimming accident = Another big hole in ground and no body yet.
We all bleed all the time.
Here is the reality check and what really happens when Eddie gets to work.
Eddie walks in garden spends half an hour searching, barks at a spot and body is found.
C'mon folks this guy Eddie is beyond nose bleeds.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Well, he said in his own words that they both do respond to dried blood from live humans.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

It's clear that Grime said that the dogs will alert to blood from a live human being that's why I provided links from other dog handlers that confirm that fact. If anyone can provide a link that shows an HRD dog will not alert to decomposing material from a living human I would appreciate it.

MOO.

 

[haden]

I'm not sure what you mean. What might not happen in children?

Sorry I beg your pardon, I was quickly typing.
I meant to say that rigor mortis is slower in small children, due to less muscle masses. I thought this means that the cadaver in children's cases would take longer to develop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

 

[natty01]

I too don't 'care' which direction the bundle man was travelling, however it is crucial to the credibility of Tanner's sighting if the guy was collecting his child rather than dropping off, though I doubt that the general public would bother with the details. On face value her sighting comes across as having been based an an actual sighting of someone, rather than a made up piece of nonsense. I don't see this so much as an exposure of Tanner as a liar as clearing her name, showing us that she DID see a man and he IS real. Nothing to see here, move along now....

Something doesn't sit well with me regarding the bundle man. He took a long time to be found/come forward.

Will the Smiths-man be eliminated too? What then? Close the case and back to seeing the McCanns being spokespeople for missing children?

Not sure what I think about the SY investigation; I fluctuate between thinking that the net is closing in, and thinking that the whole thing will be a whitewash.

Jmo

Something that struck me as odd is that the child is wearing no shoes , surely if the child was being carried home from creche she would have worn shoes to get there. Yet no mention of the man carrying anything . Irrelevant probably but still feels odd to me .

 

[liz b.]

I respect your opinion if you think this might be the case and DC Redwood is lying to the whole world.

I personally don't believe he is lying and never heard of anything similar happened in the police history.

Here LE will often work to convince a perp that they know nothing,or that they are pursuing another, unidentified perp. This to make their POI relax,maybe let something slip This is apparent in many of LE's public statements. They are speaking to their POI. It is all part of their case building technique. They are,though always,in all ways,working the case. It's not that they lie, more like they just,umm,"throw some shade" when they are investigating.

That is here in the US, perhaps SY does not ever do this,IDK :what:.... I have no dog in this fight,since I have no idea what happened to this little girl...jmo moo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

OK, lets look at this from a sensible approach. Eddie is a Cadaver dog which means he reacts to dead bodies basically. Here is an hypothetical where Eddie becomes useless according to other posters:
Eddie is used to find a dead body in a back garden and a possible dig for a body in a murder case in 2001.
Owner cuts her finger in 1992 pruning a rose = Big hole in ground
Owner grazes knee in 1993 and drop of blood hits floor = Big hole in ground
Owners grandson bangs head in 1994 and bleeds on floor = Big hole in ground
Neighbour cuts finger nailing fence and blood hits the ground = Another big hole and no body found.
1998, owners husband slices his finger off in hedge trimming accident = Another big hole in ground and no body yet.
We all bleed all the time.
Here is the reality check and what really happens when Eddie gets to work.
Eddie walks in garden spends half an hour searching, barks at a spot and body is found.
C'mon folks this guy Eddie is beyond nose bleeds.

I'm not understanding why an HRD dog alerting to blood from a living person makes them useless. They are not useless. But it's important to me to understand how they work and the limitations involved with their use by LE.

Look at other scent detection dogs used by LE like drug detection dogs. They can give a positive alert to illegal drugs during a search but tests are done to confirm the dog alerts. It doesn't make the dogs "useless" because tests are done to confirm the alerts. That's the way I look at it anyway.

MOO.

 

[nursebeeme]

We are going to continue with one thread for awhile. It's a lot easier to manage since we don't have one assigned moderator for this area.

The snark factor has been pretty high in Madeleine's forum lately. Start treating each other with respect or you might find yourself on the outside looking in.

:werk:

:nurse:

:tos:

:bump:

_______________


don't personalize your posts.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Here LE will often work to convince a perp that they know nothing,or that they are pursuing another, unidentified perp. This to make their POI relax,maybe let something slip This is apparent in many of LE's public statements. They are speaking to their POI. It is all part of their case building technique. They are,though always,in all ways,working the case. It's not that they lie, more like they just,umm,"throw some shade" when they are investigating.

That is here in the US, perhaps SY does not ever do this,IDK :what:.... I have no dog in this fight,since I have no idea what happened to this little girl...jmo moo

:goodpost:

I think that is exactly what AR is doing.

He sounds like a total twit, coming up with such profundities as "if she isn't dead, it follows she must still be alive" and so on.

Folks with active brain cells say to themselves "hang on, what did he actually just say?" and if you actually analyse it, barely a word makes sense.

Why on earth would the head of investigation appear on morning telly to tell everyone what the expected results of the new enquiry, before it even started?

This is unprecedented behaviour. Since when do LE chirpily discuss personal opinions on active cases on morning tv?

There is absolutely no reason to do this, in fact it seems contrary to running any investigation, to announce what you expect to find ahead of time to all and sundry. The only thing that actually does make sense is AR's ramblings and tv appearances are a specifically devised tactic to manipulate the perp somehow.

:twocents:

:dunno:

 

[SapphireSteel]

The dogs alert to what they are asked to alert to.

Keela would no sooner mistake blood for cadaver or vice versa, than you or I would mistake green for purple.

She's smart, if Grime asks her to look for person A, she looks for person A, not B, C or D.

If he asks her to look for cadaver, she looks for cadaver. Same principle.

 

[Meteor]

I'm not understanding why an HRD dog alerting to blood from a living person makes them useless. They are not useless. But it's important to me to understand how they work and the limitations involved with their use by LE.

Look at other scent detection dogs used by LE like drug detection dogs. They can give a positive alert to illegal drugs during a search but tests are done to confirm the dog alerts. It doesn't make the dogs "useless" because tests are done to confirm the alerts. That's the way I look at it anyway.

MOO.

Eddie only detects Cadaver in 5A which is the McCann's apartment but he is also used to check all the other apartments of the Tapas group with no results as well as the other apartment where the McCann's are staying after the event.
People are suggesting that Eddie found blood and not a Cadaver in 5A. Are these people suggesting that no one ever bled in any of the other apartments over all those years of use?
Eddie, if he gets confused by blood would have found blood in all those apartments from previous innocent incidents yet he didn't.
Eddie FOUND DEATH not blood.

 

[Cherwell]

Something that struck me as odd is that the child is wearing no shoes , surely if the child was being carried home from creche she would have worn shoes to get there. Yet no mention of the man carrying anything . Irrelevant probably but still feels odd to me .

Is this the Tanner sighting again? It's only a drawing! She never got a good close-up look, she was not close enough to see shoes or bare feet, especially at night.

Here LE will often work to convince a perp that they know nothing,or that they are pursuing another, unidentified perp. This to make their POI relax,maybe let something slip This is apparent in many of LE's public statements. They are speaking to their POI. It is all part of their case building technique. They are,though always,in all ways,working the case. It's not that they lie, more like they just,umm,"throw some shade" when they are investigating.

That is here in the US, perhaps SY does not ever do this, IDK

No, you're right, it's common procedure in the UK for the police to keep back information from the public. They never disclose everything they know, only what they want/need the public to know.

 

[BOESP]

I agree.
How do you know this hasn't been done by current detectives?

I didn't say it had not been done but I believed you when you said they used the word "might" in the statement you posted above.

If she might be alive then she also might not be alive. My personal opinion is they are on a fishing expedition and they suspect she is dead.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Eddie only detects Cadaver in 5A which is the McCann's apartment but he is also used to check all the other apartments of the Tapas group with no results as well as the other apartment where the McCann's are staying after the event.
People are suggesting that Eddie found blood and not a Cadaver in 5A. Are these people suggesting that no one ever bled in any of the other apartments over all those years of use?
Eddie, if he gets confused by blood would have found blood in all those apartments from previous innocent incidents yet he didn't.
Eddie FOUND DEATH not blood.

I'm not sure that there would be detectable levels of human decomp scent from old blood at all of the apartments. That's why LE uses HRD dogs to pinpoint where to collect samples for testing in a lab. Positive alerts can help LE find useful evidence. But not all positive alerts are useful. Finding the DNA of a person residing in a home is to be expected and doesn't help at all in an investigation.

Then there's the problem of dog handlers unintentional "cueing" their dogs to alert. That doesn't mean that the dog is wrong. It's only doing what it thinks it's master whats him to do. The problem is with the handler and training. I think that everyone can agree that human beings can make mistakes. I'll get a link and post more about that.