Madeleine McCann general discussion thread #28

[SapphireSteel]

Criminals fall into two distinct categories - organised and disorganised.

If we are to accept abduction, we have to accept that it was well organised.

I say this, and use the phrase "the perfect crime" because it hasn't been solved. Whatever precautions the perp took worked.

Saying this (obviously organised imo) perp would walk through an unlocked door then open a window, is contradictory to the crime itself. The window was on the rear of the building, facing the Tapas restaurant. The McCanns insisted they could see it from where they sat (proven false).

He allegedly watched the McCanns, unseen for how long? stole into their apartment, opened a window (for whatever reason) then left with Madeleine, all silently and without any sort of trace whatsoever.

This is not the act of a disorganised criminal who is in a psychotic state and talking to people who aren't there.

If there was an abductor, he was a very successful one in that he is still free. He was not disturbed, unbalanced or insane, rather extremely cool and calculating.

Which begs the question - if he was in the apartment for half an hour, what was he doing? Staring into space? He clearly did not use his time rifling through drawers for valuables. :dunno:

 

[blefuscu]

How does the theory of an intruder who sneaked into the apartment through an unlocked door, then left through a window, with a 3 year old child under his arm, fit in anyway with Cadaverine being found by the dog in the apartment? Are those who feel that an IDI suggesting that the intruder killed Madeleine in the apartment, stored her in the cupboard while Gerry checked the children, measured the door angles and then peed, before then sneaking out of a window with a dead child?

 

[haden]

How does the theory of an intruder who sneaked into the apartment through an unlocked door, then left through a window, with a 3 year old child under his arm, fit in anyway with Cadaverine being found by the dog in the apartment? Are those who feel that an IDI suggesting that the intruder killed Madeleine in the apartment, stored her in the cupboard while Gerry checked the children, measured the door angles and then peed, before then sneaking out of a window with a dead child?

According to the search dogs who were first at the scene, he left through the front doors, not window, and with Madeleine possibly walking with him/her

 

[blefuscu]

According to the search dogs who were first at the scene, he left through the front doors, not window, and with Madeleine possibly walking with him/her

So why open the windows and shutters then?

And walking people don't usually secrete cadaverine do they?

 

[haden]

So why open the windows and shutters then?

That is what we don't know and I hope police does know.

And walking people don't usually secrete cadaverine do they?

No they don't. And Madeleine did not too.

 

[haden]

Criminals fall into two distinct categories - organised and disorganised.

If we are to accept abduction, we have to accept that it was well organised.

I say this, and use the phrase "the perfect crime" because it hasn't been solved. Whatever precautions the perp took worked.

Saying this (obviously organised imo) perp would walk through an unlocked door then open a window, is contradictory to the crime itself. The window was on the rear of the building, facing the Tapas restaurant. The McCanns insisted they could see it from where they sat (proven false).

He allegedly watched the McCanns, unseen for how long? stole into their apartment, opened a window (for whatever reason) then left with Madeleine, all silently and without any sort of trace whatsoever.

This is not the act of a disorganised criminal who is in a psychotic state and talking to people who aren't there.

If there was an abductor, he was a very successful one in that he is still free. He was not disturbed, unbalanced or insane, rather extremely cool and calculating.

Which begs the question - if he was in the apartment for half an hour, what was he doing? Staring into space? He clearly did not use his time rifling through drawers for valuables. :dunno:

To be honest, it could have been a local odd person, who overheard Mrs Fenn or anyone from the circle she told who just went in, took Madeleine, abused her, killed her and went to bed to sleep with his wife.

This wouldn't be organised, this would be an opportunist, maybe even his first time.Like above mentioned Tabak did with Joanna Yeates.
But we hope this is not what happened. At least I hope, not sure about others.
And if indeed it was organised then the organisation could have failed. Maybe he waited for the car to turn up in front of the apartment, and that is why he opened the window, maybe the car did not turn up. How can we know the organisation deals among criminals?

 

[blefuscu]

That is what we don't know and I hope police does know.



No they don't. And Madeleine did not too.

You know this as fact?

 

[haden]

You know this as fact?

Yes, that is a fact. There was no Madeleine's cadaver in that apartment.

 

[blefuscu]

Yes, that is a fact. There was no Madeleine's cadaver in that apartment.

Do you have a link to prove that?

 

[blefuscu]

I'd have a much easier time believing there was an intruder if there was even one slither of evidence that there was one. No-one has ever been able to show that anyone but the McCann's were anywhere near those children that night.

 

[haden]

Do you have a link to prove that?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41902198/Sniffer Dogs

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal of "Fact" 29

 

[Little Jedi]

Sorry to sound so ignorant, but what IS MI5? Is it a private company? My reading has been from msm, the McCannfiles and the McCannPJfiles.

:seeya:

Hi all !
I'm still catching up with the thread so sorry if this has already been answered.
Seems to be bit of confusion regarding CRG & MI5

MI5 :

The Security Service, commonly known as MI5, is the United Kingdom's domestic counter-intelligence and security agency and is part of its intelligence machinery alongside the Secret Intelligence Service ... Wikipedia


Control Risks Group (CRG) :

The private security firm has been secretly investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
The company has more than 600 employees, many former members of MI5, MI6, the SAS and Special9 Boat Service. It is the highest-earning British security firm operating in Iraq.

Also just to confuse matters even more Private Investigating Agency hired was Metodos 3 (Spanish)

 

[blefuscu]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41902198/Sniffer Dogs

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal of "Fact" 29

Doesn't that first email from John Lowe say they can neither confirm not deny the presence of Madeleine's DNA in the car as they need more markers to confirm it's definitely her as they couldn't seperate out the components? I'm sure I read somewhere that 15 of the 19 markers were the same as Madeleine's (or I'm going crazy with this case)

 

[aa9511]

I can't find the open thread for Madeleine's case. I see that Kimster said she would open a main thread I cannot find it.

This case; and threads and info needs to remain open for discussion. Even if some think the parents have been cleared others don't.

I'd like to write about something that happened that REALLY and TRULY peeked my interest. I like to "catch up" on shows that I've missed. Through netfilx or whatever streaming serv I can. So recently I watch all of Trials and Retribution. It's not the first case; I think it was closer to the last case...they are only 2 epi's per SEASON.

Now; I want all to watch it; and listen for the part where the woman, who just finds out her kid is taken, says the exact same phrase when giving her public plea. I'd like to know exactly how this happened. KM gave her plea in PDL not in the UK. She must have seen this show. I need to know; we all need to know if she did. Because OK now I remember it's season 1 epi one or two WHEN SHE IS OFFERED TO GIVE A PUBLIC PLEA.....

The SAME EXACT WORDS CAME OUT OF KATE MCCANNS MOUTH AND THE UK SCOTLAND YARD AND PDL need to know this. Review the show when you have time; then please post. Please. I need you all to see it; just the first two episodes. This occurred BEFORE Madel ever went missing. FYI

Also; in PDL there were those huge construction sewer pipes in PDL right along side where they stayed. Now this; these TWO coinkydinks can no longer be described as coinky dinks, esp when she opens her mouth to give a public plea. On teh show; and in real life. It's uncanny; I hv to write this I need you all to see the first and second epi and think on KM and what she said at her press conf when she plead for Madeleine. Please.

Scotland Yard Must Determine if the McCanns saw this show. Or if they subscribed or if they watched it through their service. Because it links up in too many conv. ways.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1511543/

OMG....I have not watched this yet, but if this is true........I believe you have just cracked the case, and I hope SY sees this or gets hold of your information somehow.

Right now I'm just catching up on the posts since I'm so excited to see the thread has been re-opened (thank you Mods!!)!!

So I will watch these episodes FOR SURE sometime soon and post my thoughts.

 

[Inana]

You know this as fact?

YES, we do. We have been told that by the British scientists at the FSS. What they got was a whole lot of nothing. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

 

[aa9511]

I know I'm posting a lot and I apologise for that, but I ended up seeing a photo of TractorMan on an Australian news website (IIRC) and I was just wondering if they had any evidence beyond his mobile phone pings in the area and him working and being fired at the resort that suggests he took Maddie because I think he's a weak suspect. The witnesses (the Smiths, since theirs is the only one that matters now) identified the man they saw as Caucasian and all the other POIs appear Caucasian and the poor man can't defend himself now. I just want to know if I'm missing something beyond what I know. This is actually the first time I have heard of anyone with dark skin being involved with Maddie disappearance.

I don't believe there was an abductor anyway as you all know but I try to keep an open mind and look at everything objectively, but I can't see any possibility of this man being involved at all.

I do find it curious they have moved onto someone else though. It makes me wonder if they have tracked down the man who the Smiths saw and cleared him.

I think, MOO, that it's all a game the SY is playing on the McCanns' while they dig up more evidence and information on their involvement in the concealment of the death and the death itself and all the facts surrounding what happened.

 

[blefuscu]

YES, we do. We have been told that by the British scientists at the FSS. What they got was a whole lot of nothing. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

So what was the stuff about the 15 markers out of 19?

 

[haden]

Doesn't that first email from John Lowe say they can neither confirm not deny the presence of Madeleine's DNA in the car as they need more markers to confirm it's definitely her as they couldn't seperate out the components? I'm sure I read somewhere that 15 of the 19 markers were the same as Madeleine's (or I'm going crazy with this case)

Re the car findings the best ever explanation I have seen on this blog, it is by a Spanish criminologist. He even predicted Jane Tanner sighting to be of less importance. IMO he should actually be working on this case
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html

And this is his explanation of John Lowe's email

Two samples of DNA have a very great likelihood of belong to the same person when ALL the 22 values coincide.

The second generation multiplex plus (SGM+) test is reliable and requires about 1 nanogram of DNA. The low copy number (LCN) test is less reliable, and it is carry out when the quantity of DNA available is about 0.1 to 0.2 nanograms. In the SGM+ test the DNA is replicated 28 times using the polymerase chain reaction method (PCR). In the LCN test the DNA is replicated 34 times.

Now we can analyze the John Lowe report and his email to Stuart Prior, both of which mainly discuss the DNA test results from stain 286C 2007 LCR 10(2).

The complete DNA of a given person, excluding monozygotic twins, is unique (monozygotic twins have the same profile).

But taking only 10 loci from the DNA, the likelihood of finding a person with coincide with that given person, in all of the locus and in all of the alleles, is about 1 in 1,000,000,000. In other words, with this method we can find about only 3 or 4 more persons in the world with the same profile as the given person.

In his email to Stuart Prior, John Lowe analyses stain 286C 2007 LCR 10(2), that was taken from the car the McCanns rented 23 days after Madeleine abduction.

Lowe wrote: "A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeline has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contnbutors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/conclusion."

So Madeleine 10 loci DNA profile has 19 alleles or components; 19 and not 20 because she has the same allele inherited from her mother TH locus and her father TH locus, in her own TH locus. But most important, Madeleine's 20 (19) alleles were inherited from her parents, so Gerry has 10 of Madeleine's alleles in the corresponding loci of his DNA profile, and Kate has the other 10 of Madeleine's alleles in the corresponding loci of her DNA profile. And of course, McCanns twins, Sean and Amelie, could have some of Madeleine alleles inherited from their parents. I would like to have Gerry, Kate, Sean and Amelie profiles to show this.

The profile taken from the car stain has 37 alleles, and 15 match 15 of Madeleine 19 alleles. But it is impossible for one person having 37 alleles into 10 loci. So the DNA belonged to more than one person, and Lowe, after studying the profiles concluded it was a mixture of 3 to 5 person. And if the car were used by the McCanns then they could have contributed to the stain, and remember that they have together the 20 (19) alleles of Madeleine's profile, i.e. all Madeleine components.

Lowe also wrote: "What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. It's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible, in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles."

http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html

Also to point out is that the cadaver dogs did not alert on this stain. As long as I remember they alerted on the car key which Lowe found DNA to belong the Gerry and car boot but not this stain.

 

[blefuscu]

So that is saying they cannot confirm that it is or is not Madeleine's because it's a mixture of several people's DNA.

 

[aa9511]

I've always believed that both Tanner and Smith were being truthful and that both saw a man with Madeleine.

Now I'm turning to the belief that both saw a man with a child, but NEITHER were Madeleine and both were simply a man with his own child. We now know Tanner did see a man who has been since been identified and discounted. Maybe the same can be said for the Smith sighting. In a tourist town, it is quite possible.

Just my own opinion. Any thoughts?

MOO....I think the Tanner sighting was a lie. For one thing, Gerry admits he was there sitting at the table when they wrote the "timeline" on the back of Maddie's book. In the timeline, they wrote "9:15....Jane sees stranger carrying a child." (sorry, don't know if those were the exact words, but something like that). First of all, they wouldn't have used the word "stranger" if it was a real sighting...they would have written "sees a man carrying a child".....or "sees someone carrying a child".....secondly even though Gerry knows Maddie's been abducted and JT saw a guy carrying a blonde girl wearing similar pj's as Maddie, the Tapas group never even go physically looking for the child as soon as they hear JT's information, which would be CRUCIAL information if your daughter had just been supposedly abducted.

And how do we know for certain that the man JT saw has been tracked and identified? Because SY said so? Well, they also say the McCann's are not suspects............so that one statement alone leads me to take what information they give the public with a grain of salt.

At this point, we do not know what is truth and what is lie. Everyone is lying. I believe the SY is doing it b/c they are in the process of gathering information and they don't want to jeapordize their investigation. So IMO we cannot believe all the information they choose to give out to the public at this time.