Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 24

[april4sky]

no idea - this is the first time I have ever seen what can be construed as a witness statement - It does seem strange that Gerry and Wilkins didnt see her -but it only takes a minute either way and they could have missed each other - I would like to see her actual written statement with times though

I agree.
We need to hear Jane's explanation.
If she was lying she would have placed them differently. IMO

 

[Texana]

I agree.
We need to hear Jane's explanation.
If she was lying she would have placed them differently. IMO

Ahh, but she could be like Mrs. Fenn in your opinion...completely wrong and yet, unaware of it...

The point is, her account and that of the two other peoples' accounts, cannot be reconciled as is.

Yet Jane does not budge from her story.

McCann and Wilkins stick to theirs.

So without any wiggle room, we must pick one to believe or craft something out of thin air to make both work, as the Daily Mail reporter did.

And hugely important, at the time of Jane's initial report to police, she would not have had time to square her account with anyone else. She would not have known her story contradicted anyone else.

So logically, we cannot rule out lying by Jane. She seems like a very nice person and all that, but we cannot rule that out.

All explanations for the discrepancy in stories must be equally and objectively examined, and "Jane couldn't be lying" is not objective.

 

[april4sky]

Ahh, but she could be like Mrs. Fenn in your opinion...completely wrong and yet, unaware of it...

The point is, her account and that of the two other peoples' accounts, cannot be reconciled as is.

Yet Jane does not budge from her story.

McCann and Wilkins stick to theirs.

So without any wiggle room, we must pick one to believe or craft something out of thin air to make both work, as the Daily Mail reporter did.

And hugely important, at the time of Jane's initial report to police, she would not have had time to square her account with anyone else. She would not have known her story contradicted anyone else.

So logically, we cannot rule out lying by Jane. She seems like a very nice person and all that, but we cannot rule that out.

All explanations for the discrepancy in stories must be equally and objectively examined, and "Jane couldn't be lying" is not objective.

No one is trying to rule anything out.:waitasec:
Do you object to wanting to hear her explanation?

 

[Barnaby]

Jane Tanner lied, the question is why? If we could answer this then we would have cracked it!

 

[Salem]

April and Gord - does it not count that Jane drew the map? She placed the figures in the locations as she remembered them at the time. If there was a time gap, someone would not have been in some position, right? Or are you saying that the map actually shows (I'm exagerating here) where G&J were standing at 8:45 p.m. and where Jane was standing at 9:30 p.m. and where bundleman was standing at 10:00 p.m.? Is that the type of explanation you think Jane's written statement would provide?

That's the only way I can see her map working. However, I am open to other ideas. I am honestly confused by the map because to me it just does not work. There is no way, on a 4-5' wide sidewalk, heck, not even on a 10' wide sidewalk, Jane could have walked past the two men and not been noticed. I just can not see that happening as graphically described.

Salem

 

[Salem]

Jane Tanner lied, the question is why? If we could answer this then we would have cracked it!

:clap:And that's the truth Barnaby. If we could just figure why anyone of them lied, we would really be moving forward in this case. It is my opinion that you are 100% right.

Salem

However, if someone can come up with a logical explanation, I will certainly consider it.

 

[Texana]

No one is trying to rule anything out.:waitasec:
Do you object to wanting to hear her explanation?

NO! I'd love to hear her explanation.

Sadly, the thought that Jane might not be truthful HAS been ruled out, at least by the Daily Mail reporter in the article linked to previously. The only explanation offered for the discrepancy--The two men were "oblivious" to Jane passing by.

Do you have a link to another explanation?

And again, logically speaking, any explanation offered by Jane does not necessarily validate her account. If she is the one offering explanations for the discrepancy that do not involve outside verification of that explanation--we're back to the same old same old.

Jane's account differs, and only Jane can testify to her account.

Jeremy Wilkins and Gerry McCann's accounts independently verify each other's.

 

[SleuthMom]

I would be interested in hearing her testimony as well but come on guys, for months now some posters have been saying there were only media "rumors" (the facts presented in the map that shows that either Jane or the two men are lying) now you guys are seeing the map for yourself, what else you want? :waitasec:

 

[Texana]

No one is trying to rule anything out.:waitasec:
Do you object to wanting to hear her explanation?

NO! I'd love to hear her explanation.

Sadly, the thought that Jane might not be truthful HAS been ruled out, at least by the Daily Mail reporter in the article linked to previously. The only explanation offered for the discrepancy--The two men were "oblivious" to Jane passing by.

Do you have a link to another explanation?

And again, logically speaking, any explanation offered by Jane does not necessarily validate her account. If she is the one offering explanations for the discrepancy that do not involve outside verification of that explanation--we're back to the same old same old.

Jane's account differs, and only Jane can testify to her account.

Jeremy Wilkins and Gerry McCann's accounts independently verify each other's.

 

[JMO8778]

Hi....I don't post here much,but I found this on one of the links posted:


-Now Jane Tanner's insistence at seeing the abductor go the other direction makes sense, removing attentions from the way Gerry walked,in the direction of the beach. The man carrying a child didn't walk east towards Murat's house, but west in the direction of the Smiths.

 

[april4sky]

April and Gord - does it not count that Jane drew the map? She placed the figures in the locations as she remembered them at the time. If there was a time gap, someone would not have been in some position, right? Or are you saying that the map actually shows (I'm exagerating here) where G&J were standing at 8:45 p.m. and where Jane was standing at 9:30 p.m. and where bundleman was standing at 10:00 p.m.? Is that the type of explanation you think Jane's written statement would provide?

That's the only way I can see her map working. However, I am open to other ideas. I am honestly confused by the map because to me it just does not work. There is no way, on a 4-5' wide sidewalk, heck, not even on a 10' wide sidewalk, Jane could have walked past the two men and not been noticed. I just can not see that happening as graphically described.

Salem

Yes Salem it counts that Jane drew the map.

And her explanation may clear up your questions as well as mine.

And yes I do think it's possible for someone walked by and for it not to register if engrosed in a conversation..especially in the dark.

Looking at the map the only time gap would have been seconds. Jane marks her own position as the unknown man walks across the top of the road from point 5 to point 8 - as she approached him.

As yet we have only heard the PJ's version.
And I don't believe Jane would have drawn that map if she was lying.

 

[april4sky]

Prosecutors ridicule bumbling detectives for 'not being Sherlock Holmes'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cule-bumbling-detectives-Sherlock-Holmes.html

A damning prosecution report criticised the Portuguese police

The report by senior lawyers Joao Gomes and Jose Magalhaes e Meneses

In their report they said all the police's theories - including allegations that the McCanns could have been involved - had come to nothing.

'No element of proof whatsoever was found which allows us to form any lucid, sensible, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances (of Madeleine's disappearance).'

They said none of the wild theories which led to the McCanns being named as suspects had ever been proved.
The prosecutors referred to the 'objective circumstances' which justify the 'non-involvement of the parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal act'.

It said: 'In reality, none of the suspicions which led to them being made arguidos (formal suspects) came to be confirmed later.'

The report pointed out they were not in the apartment when Madeleine vanished and highlighted their 'normal behaviour adopted before the disappearance and afterwards'.
*******

McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said....
'It is the first time in 15 months that there has been some common sense at long last. The report and criticism with it of the police investigation speak for themselves.'

 

[gord]

Thanks for the response Gord.

Texana - I agree the times could be off, but then why would Jane draw G&J on the map? Doesn't make sense.....

Jane drew the map. She shows G&J standing on sidewalk between her and Tapas bar. She shows herself on the same side of the street as G&J. She would have had to walk around them, in order to reach her position as shown on the map that she drew.

If they were not there, she would have left them off the map as having not seen them, or showed that she walked on the other side of the street, or....... I don't know? I'm thinking she was coming back from the apts - not heading towards them, myself. But if that is the case, then she had her back to the bundleman. In fact, if I remember correctly, the first article or so about this said Jane was heading to the Tapas bar, then later is was said she was returning to the apts.

My head is spinning......

Salem

One thing re the map - if you look at it closely all the writing and ledgends are in Portugese - so I doubt that Tanner penned it herself - but maybe she did and the police added the other stuff over it . I would want to know who drew the map - did Tanner agree with it - etc etc

Taking one part of the case and trying to make sense is always hard - you have to look at everything in contex with everything else

what times exactly did this happen

were Gerry and Wilkins always standing still ? remember that Wilkins was walking his child to get her asleep - so maybe they strolled around - I just dont know - again you would need to cross check it with other statements and create your own time line which wouldnt be that difficult


edited to add - on looking at the map it seems it was written in English with Portugese added = so Tanner probably did draw the thing with the police adding after

 

[SleuthMom]

Oh come on guys, she drew the map. So if she comes out now and gives an explanation of it are you all going to say you're not sure it's her or her voice? lol The map shows one of the parties is lying, we just have to figure out who and why.

 

[Texana]

She drew the map, therefore, the map is not testimony to the accuracy of her account.

 

[colomom]

She drew the map...she signed the map! Check the upper right corner. I am 99% sure that is her signature and the others probably belong to the PJ interviewers.

 

[SleuthMom]

And yes I do think it's possible for someone walked by and for it not to register if engrosed in a conversation..especially in the dark.

Did you carefully see the map? There is NO WAY they could have "missed" each other, a matter of space!

 

[SleuthMom]

She drew the map...she signed the map! Check the upper right corner. I am 99% sure that is her signature and the others probably belong to the PJ interviewers.

Spot on Colomom! :clap:

 

[gord]

She drew the map...she signed the map! Check the upper right corner. I am 99% sure that is her signature and the others probably belong to the PJ interviewers.

jeez - I agree - all the portugese stuff must be the PJ's additions - just looked simillar writing to the whole map - as if it was done with one hand .

anyway I repeat to look at just the map alone doesnt give the whole picture - I would want to know when the map was written - what time lines it is based on , did Gerry and Wilkins stay still in the same place and not move or were they moving and chatting , did they draw a map , where is Wilkins statement - I have never seen that .

 

[SleuthMom]

One of the many reasons why Jane is NOT a reliable "witness":

Now in an advanced phase of the investigation, pages 3965 to 4113, there arises, related to the private investigation developed by the McCann couple, and publicly announced by their spokesman, CLARENCE MITCHELL, the alleged existence of a suspect, which, supposedly, was undertaking a collection in Praia da Luz, at the time of the disappearance. A fotofit was created of this invidivual by a witness – GAIL COOPER – who saw him, page 3979.

From the beginning and immediately, this was compared with the fotofit from JANE TANNER, and despite hers not having a face, page 3977, she alleged they were the same person, with an approximately 80% certainty.

In order to assess the credibility of the description and of the drawing, it is important to highlight that the witness GAIL COOPER, was heard for the first time and in a very detailed fashion [emphasis in the report], by the British authorities (see page 3982), then affirming that she saw this person only one time [emphasis in the report], in a collection done at the door of the residence she was occupying during her holidays.

However, a few months later, in a new deposition, the same witness affirms that she saw this individual three times [emphasis in the report] (one of which he was watching, in a strange way, the children at the Paraíso Restaurant), during her stay in Luz, information which she did not supply at the time of her first deposition to the police in the UK.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67739