Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 24

[gord]

The DNA genie rears his head once again, eh gord?

Will this ever end???

I dont know Colomom I dont know

I tend to disregard forum roumour , press specualation - I have been quite consistent on this since the beginning

I can only go with what the PJ had said in their report after a long and complex testing - the DNA sample cannot be verified either way

This is the PJ - it is one of the reason the case has been shelved .

I dont know what else you want - sure we all have our own opinions etc and sure you are perfectly entitled to have yours

do you think the PJ and FSS are wrong ?

 

[colomom]

I dont know Colomom I dont know

I tend to disregard forum roumour , press specualation - I have been quite consistent on this since the beginning

I can only go with what the PJ had said in their report after a long and complex testing - the DNA sample cannot be verified either way

This is the PJ - it is one of the reason the case has been shelved .

I dont know what else you want - sure we all have our own opinions etc and sure you are perfectly entitled to have yours

do you think the PJ and FSS are wrong ?

Not at all gord...

I think the FSS could not be positive one way or the other and the PJ's final report reflects that fact.

It is very open-ended. I am still working on rounding up some other reports I have seen reference (low copy DNA results and proof of Kate's lineage) that I have seen reference to.

I also have a BIG problem with the lack of mention of the hair. That really bugs me.

 

[colomom]

Oh, and BTW gord...the PJ's final report also is pretty clear that they believe Maddie died in 5A. Do we take that as gospel?

Just ask April...

 

[colomom]

More on the Low Copy DNA analysis:

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2008/08/mccann-case-why-15-over-19-dna.html

The McCann Case: Why 15 over 19 DNA components isn't enough

As it is front page news at almost every British newspaper, it's interesting to know with more detail what the scientists from Forensic Science Service told Portuguese police, on September 4, 2007, a few days before Gerry and Kate McCann were named "arguidos."
According to a document from FSS, signed by Mr. J.R. Lowe, analysis to the samples collected at the boot of the Renault Scenic produced a complex Low Copy Number DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people. Madeleine's DNA profile had 19 elements, each one represented by a peak on a chart, explains Mr. Lowe.
As Madeleine has inherited a same DNA component from both parents, the number of peaks in the chart is 19, instead of 20. Those 2 components appear, in the chart, as only one peak.
The FSS document states that of those 19 components, 15 are present within the result of the analysis to that specific sample. But the total number of components is 37, because there are at least three contributors, may be up to five, in the sample.
Mr. J.R. Lowe's opinion was that the result is too complex to have a meaningful interpretation or conclusion.
But, concerning the question asked, when the samples were sent to FSS – if it could be or not Madeleine's DNA – the FSS scientist admits that it would be very simple to say yes, because of the number of components, within the sample, that are also present in Madeleine DNA profile – 15 over 19.
However, as Mr. J.R. Lowe emphasizes, in the mentioned document, the scientists need to consider if the match is genuine and legitimate. Meaning, to be sure if either Madeleine's DNA was deposited in the car or if the result matched Madeleine's DNA just by chance.
To explain in more detail this question, the FSS scientist reminds that individual components of Madeleine's DNA are also present within the profile of many of the scientists that work in the Birmingham laboratory. Mr. Lowe even refers to his own DNA profile, as an evidence of that.
As the sample analysed has a mixture of elements from more than two persons, it is not possible, according to the FSS expert, to determine or evaluate which specific components pair with each other. Another difficulty mentioned is the fact that it's not possible to separate the components out into three individual DNA profiles.
As a conclusion, Mr. J.R. Lowe wrote that he could not answer the question if the partial match was genuine or just a chance match.

Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis

 

[colomom]

I also need to mention that we have not seen the specimen (DNA, etc.) analysis reports yet. They are due to be released in September....

 

[gord]

well we go round in circles , back and forth !


seems little point in having debates / discussions -

Until the case gets taken off the shelf and the Mccanns put in gaol - then I doubt anyone will realy be satisfied

so be it

adios for now

 

[Texana]

you could give Clarence a run for his money

no idea what point you are trying to make - they couldnt even tell if it was blood or not - ah well - I didnt think that anythiing would make any diff - not even the PJ report - views too entrenched

I didn't make it clear?

Okay, let me try again.

The final report didn't say that it wasn't Madeleine's blood. They couldn't tell whether it was blood, urine, etc.

The final report from the lab didn't say it wasn't Madeleine. They couldn't make a complete identification but there were 15 out of 19 markers, so the DNA could have been hers.

 

[Gatinho]

Gatinho you said in your earlier post...
After saying...I fail to see the objectivity in this.

Kate was made an arguido before the questions were put to her.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7543064.stm

And she refused to answer, as was her legal right, following advice from her lawyer.

Hi April,

I didn´t know that she was made an arguido before the questions were put to her. I suppose what I think is that her becoming an arguido was correct procedure in that the police had a certain line of enquiry to follow based on questions raised by facts such as the dogs and so on.

If you think I am not being objective, ok, but I simply was trying to get beyond the "I love\hate the McCanns" position. And to try to decide what we really know about what happened which even now is not enough.

With regard to the McCanns I am not a hater - but whatever I think of them is coloured by the very dubious decision thye made to leave the children alone at night. But even then, well even if Kate was involved in a accident with her daughter, even then I am not sure putting her in prison would be entirely appropriate. What frustrates me is that the media do not provide us with any analytical reporting, they report selctively, and this has been so from the very beginning. I think they are lazy and cynical and just want either our money or better ratings.

Please add to the "list" all those pointers to the abduction and I will be as happy as anyone.

I have asked myself the question whether in Kates position I woul have answered the 48 or not and I can say I would have. Most of the questions are almost yes\no simple ... and anyone innocent and backed by top lawyers (Pinto de Abreu et al) would have no problem in answering ... after all the interests of Madeleine outweigh every thing else don´t they. As it has been reported that she wrote to Rebelo asking to work together then it seems extraordinary not to offer to answer the 48 at that time just to get them out of the way.

 

[Tony Bennett]

Salem,

I found your list of proven facts very intriguing.

I first comment on them (interleaved) and then add a few more:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Salem: Maddie is missing.

REPLY: Agreed, but there is also much evidence that she is dead (see below).

======

Salem: McCanns' left 3 children, under the age of 3 alone night of May 3, 2007.

REPLY: Not established. There are several pointers to the possibility that Madeleine McCann may have died as early as the night of 2nd/3rd May. There are also many indications that the 'Tapas 9' men, between them, spent a lot of time in Apartment 5a on the evening of 3rd May, or at least, away from the Tapas bar. The other children, apart from Madeleine, might well have been cared for that evening collectively, a possibility that was leaked from the PJ investigation at one stage. There are many indications that the accounts of the 'Tapas 9' of what happened on the evening of 3rd May are an elebaorate smokescreen to prevent us understanding what really happened. Both McCanns by the way have admitted on the record to leaving their children on their own all six nights in a row, though they do also claim to have been checking on them (a claim fatally underlined by Mrs Pamela Fenn, see below)

======

Salem: Reported that Maddie went missing approx. 10:00 p.m. May 3, 2007.

REPLY: Agreed

======

Salem: Maddie has not been found.

REPLY: But Eddie found the death scent in the apartment and in the hired car and Keela found blood - which may have been Madeleine's

======

Salem: Cadaver dog hit on spots in the apartment, the McCanns' car, cuddle cat, Kate's clothes and Maddie's clothes.

REPLY: Agreed

======

Salem: No evidence was found at Murat's home.

REPLY: So the PJ tell us, and I accept it.

======

Salem: Gerry talked to Jeremy Wilkins outside the apt between 9:00 p.m. and 9:30 p.m.

REPLY: Both say this was about 9.10pm to 9.25pm

======

Salem: McCanns were having dinner/drinks with 7 friends at Tapas Bar...

REPLY: O'Brien was away from the table most of the evening. Jane Tanner, Kate McCann, Gerry McCann and Russell Oldfield all admit to being away from the table at different times. They claimed to be taking part in a quiz

======

Salem: ...approximately 150 feet from apt.

REPLY: As the crow flies - probably nearer 200 feet. To actually get to their apartment, more like 400 feet

======

Salem: Apt can not be clearly seen from Tapas Bar.

REPLY: Agreed

======

Salem: I think that is the list of all things known for sure. Everything else appears to remain open for discussion.

REPLY: Here's where we disagree sharply. here is a small selection of other facts that we know:

* McCanns initially said shutters had been forced open with a jemmy

* McCanns said abductor must have come through shutters and window

* Police and Mark Warners said there was absolutely no evidence of that

* McCanns initially said apartment was locked

* McCanns changed story to say apartment was unlocked

* McCanns changed story to say abductor entered by open patio door and climbed through window

* Jane Tanner and McCanns didn't speak to each other for 2 days about what Jane Tanner says she saw

* Gerry McCann's initial issuing of a description of the abductor was based solely on Jane Tanner's claims

* Jane Tanner did not recall seeing a girl in pink pyjamas but only a 'bundle'

* Five months later Jane Tanner changed her description of the abdcutor after sessions witha 'cognitive therapost'

*Jane Tanner then said she'd definitely seen a girl wearing pink pyjamas 'just like Madeleine's' - new description if abductor issued 6 months after 3rd May

* Gerry McCann on 3 June (one month after Madeleine 'disappeared') spoke of a big fund-raising/awareness event being planned - several months ahead

* Gerry McCann exhibited several common signs of lying when asked if he had ever given his children sedatives

* McCanns had private drugs tests done on the twins hair over four months after 3 May allegedly to prove they had not been sedated. Leaving it four months rendered the results practically woerthless. In any event, the results weren't published. we just had to accept the McCanns' word (cough)

* McCanns admit ignoring advice not to emphasise their daughter's 'coloboma' defect in case it frightened the abductor (if there was one) into killing her

* Mrs Pamela Fenn heard Madeleine sobbing 'Daddy, Daddy' for 75 minutes continuously on 1 May

* McCanns gave six extraordinary reasons as to why cadaver odours should have been found in their apartment and hire car...rottng meat, dirty nappies, examining six corpses in the last 2 weeks etc.

* Gerry McCann refused to disclose his mobile 'phone for examination

* Kate McCann refused to answer any of 48 questions put to her

* The McCanns said they would take a lie detector test

* Then they didn't

* The McCanns have raised well over $2 million, quite possibly double or treble that (they simply won't tell us how much) for the 'Helping to Find Madeleine Fund'

* They have used most of it to pay a disreputable Spanish private detective agency better known for experience in money laundering than in finding missing children

* The McCanns expressed anxiety that their telephone calls were being monitored

* David Payne told a Portuguese newspaper: "We have a pact of silence. this is our matter.

Now, Salem, what we make of these and many many other facts is another matter.

But they are all facts that we should use and put into the melting pot, as it were, to determine what is most likely to have happened to Madeleine

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Texana]

Excellent list, Tony. The only thing I would add is the comment from one of the men at dinner--Mathew Oldfield, possibly? when questioned about the drinking said:

"Yes, we drank. We were on holiday. So what?"

This is a statement much more in keeping with more than just the two bottles of wine on official receipt. Two bottles of wine would be barely one glass a piece. Practically medicinal, nothing that would result in a "we were drinking" kind of response.

And FWIW, I found his response to be very understandable, actually.

 

[april4sky]

Oh, and BTW gord...the PJ's final report also is pretty clear that they believe Maddie died in 5A. Do we take that as gospel?deflect from their incompetence.

Just ask April...

They believe!!!:waitasec:

I did say a while ago that because the report was written by the PJ:waitasec: :waitasec: it would be slanted to make themselves look good, so beware of the smears!!
So no surprise that they are there, and without any evidence to back them up.

The truth in the report...is that abduction is still one of the options.

You have to look beyond the PJ smears. IMO

 

[SleuthMom]

I just read the transcript of the chat discussion with Marc Klaas and Salem asked:

<Christine2448> Salem asked: What are your thoughts on the Madeleine McCann case out of Portugal, now that the legal inquiry has been archived? Do you think Maddie will be found?

<Christine2448> A: I think that her parents were irresponsible for not protecting their children. There may be a break in the case that will result in determining what actually happened. However, that becomes less likely as time passes.

Good to know a RESPONSIBLE father recognizes the IRRESPONSIBILITY of the Mc Canns.

 

[Salem]

Nice Post Tony!! And goes to show that in this case, even the simplest fact seems to be disputable, or at least discussable. Amazing isn't it. We are now what, 15 months? past the incident and the only fact that we can lay to paper is that Maddie's whereabouts is unknown to the PJ, British LE, and the public at large. We really can't say she is "missing" because is it disputable as to whether or not her parents know where she is...... I guess we could say that "her parents claim she is missing" however her parents can not adequately or factually describe the circumstances under which she went missing.

Salem

 

[Salem]

Reading through all of that, I have to say I am amazed and angry that 15 months after Maddie went missing - we still do not have a clear picture of what was happening with the Tapas 9. Unbelievable! This is a 3 year old child we are talking about, and no one loved her enough to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so that she might be found.

So very, very, sad.

Salem

 

[Texana]

I just read the transcript of the chat discussion with Marc Klaas and Salem asked:

Good to know a RESPONSIBLE father recognizes the IRRESPONSIBILITY of the Mc Canns.

Thanks for beating me to posting this. I was there when he said this.

He was also asked what people should say about the case, and he said basically, "they can say whatever they want."

There was not even a hint from this parent of an abducted/murdered child, that people should refrain from saying or thinking or concluding one thing about the possible outcome or reality of the facts.

I thought that was amazing, actually.

"Witch hunt" was no where in his comments.

Mr. Klass seemed clearly willing to differentiate between parents who might be responsible for their children's deaths, parents who bore some responsibility in their children's death, and parents who were not involved.

I hope everyone here reads the thread, we are all here because we care about these issues, and Mr. Klass's perspective and opinions are both moving and educational.

 

[Salem]

I'm so glad you got to attend! I tried and tried to get in, but alas, no luck for me! Maybe next time.

Salem

 

[Claycat]

"<Christine2448> *nocgirl* I am also curious what Marc thinks about the Madeleine Mccann case and if her parents had anything to do with it

<PollyDad> They were negligent the day that she disappeared. They left their 3 young children unattended in an unlocked room that was not within eyesight of where they were sitting.
<PollyDad> Don't you think that is unbelievable?
<PollyDad> Beyond that I do not believe that they are involved."

 

[SleuthMom]

Claycat, I read that but that's not the point I was trying to make.

It is because of the IRRESPONSIBLE behavior of the Mc Canns of leaving three toddlers ALONE for a WHOLE WEEK, Maddie is now "missing". My point was the IRRESPONSIBLE behavior, also acknowledged by Mr. Klaas.

 

[Claycat]

Claycat, I read that but that's not the point I was trying to make.

It is because of the IRRESPONSIBLE behavior of the Mc Canns of leaving three toddlers ALONE for a WHOLE WEEK, Maddie is now "missing". My point was the IRRESPONSIBLE behavior, also acknowledged by Mr. Klaas.

I already told you I believed they were negligent, and yes I agree that she would not be missing if they had not been negligent! However, I do not believe they killed her.

 

[april4sky]

'Void of information is torture': Kate McCann's desperate letter to Portuguese police

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1042058/Void-information-torture-Kate-McCanns-desperate-letter-Portuguese-police.html

Dear Mr Rebelo,
I hope you do not mind me writing to you and that you will read my letter. I am Madeleine McCann's mother.
I am not sure if you are a parent or not, but for my husband and myself, and the whole of our family, the last seven months has been the most difficult, sad and unbearable time that any parent could possibly imagine. Madeleine is the most precious thing in our life.
As her mother, the pain and anxiety I feel for her is indescribable and the feeling of helplessness overwhelming. The 'accusations' and media smearing, although upsetting, are very much secondary.
I am appealing to you as a fellow human being to work with us (if possible include us) and to remember that we are Madeleine's parents and have needs.
With regard to this latter point, I would be grateful if you were able to keep us informed to some degree as to how the investigation is going - what work is being done to help find our daughter etc.
I'm sure you will agree that this request is not unreasonable and is in fact humane. I am fairly familiar now with the workings of 'judicial secrecy' but even if we could have a little bit of information in the broadest of terms it would help.
Lack of communication and a void of information, particularly as the parent of a missing child, is torture. We will continue to work with the PJ (and are keen to do so as soon as possible!) as we have done since that moment when I discovered that Madeleine had been taken.
This shouldn't be about 'finger-pointing blame', nor should it be about differences in culture. It should be about a beautiful, innocent little girl who is still missing. She is the victim in all of this.
It would be good for Madeleine if we could all work together to help find her and the person(s) who took her. I would be very grateful if you could give some thought and consideration to my letter and look forward to your reply. I can only ask.
Yours sincerely,
Kate McCann
******
Paulo Rebelo never replied and Mrs McCann was only sent a formal notification that it had been received

It is thought that the McCanns repeatedly attempted to contact Mr Rebelo and even asked for face-to-face meetings but he never responded.

This is beyond cruel IMO.

The more I hear about the PJ the more they sound like the Aruban LE who kept Natalee Holloways parents in the dark like this too.
Mr Rebelo who took over the investigation after disgraced cop Goncalo Amarol was removed never even spoke to the McCanns:waitasec:…….Even after they knew there was no evidence against them.
I think by this time they had gone too far down the line of smears and lies and couldn't, or wouldn't admit they were wrong.

What a way to run an investigation.