Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 25

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  • #361
YES! Texana, this post is brilliant.

You guys also have to remember it was likely not her parents who discovered the body...one of the male doctors was gone from the table longest (Oldfield?)....He could have verified she was deceased and placed the body behind the sofa...The extra time could have been used up sanitizing the initial crime scene outside the apartment....Then Gerry's turn was used by walking Maddie down to the beach....Then Kate followed up with sounding the alarm.

There's not enough blood in the apartment to have the original event to have occurred there. But plenty of stone walkways outside for a fall to have necessitarily been fatal and flower beds to wash the blood and evidence away....flower beds where one of the dogs alerted.

Maddie was exactly the type of child who would have tried to escape the apartment to look for her parents....and she was likely sedated prior to the alleged fall.

Thanks, Twinkie, I just keep thinking of this when I hear that they didn't have time, couldn't formulate a plan under grief and stress, I keep coming back to not one, but two doctors and several more on the team. They are trained to think in a detached manner and they're GOOD at that, or they can't last long as doctors.

How else could Kate be so very, very certain that Maddie hadn't walked away? Because walking away--particularly if they had issues with hiding the remains--would have left them open to charges of neglect as well. The only sure fire way to keep the twins was an abduction scenario.

And also, they would be able to "help" other children by drawing attention to the abductors and pedophiles. Brilliant. It made what they were doing also seem fair. They couldn't help Maddie but they could help other children.

It's why Kate said in the early days that it wasn't "fair" to focus just on Madeleine.
 
  • #362
Wow, Colomom - what a bonanza of info that will be!!
Just curious: how did you obtain the DVD?

Hahahahahaha....I would tell you rashomon but then I'd have to kill you. Wildly kidding of course.

I have been sworn to secrecy.

Suffice it to say, I have made many, many very good friends all over the world since I became involved with this case.
 
  • #363
YES! Texana, this post is brilliant.

You guys also have to remember it was likely not her parents who discovered the body...one of the male doctors was gone from the table longest (Oldfield?)....He could have verified she was deceased and placed the body behind the sofa...The extra time could have been used up sanitizing the initial crime scene outside the apartment....Then Gerry's turn was used by walking Maddie down to the beach....Then Kate followed up with sounding the alarm.

There's not enough blood in the apartment to have the original event to have occurred there. But plenty of stone walkways outside for a fall to have necessitarily been fatal and flower beds to wash the blood and evidence away....flower beds where one of the dogs alerted.

Maddie was exactly the type of child who would have tried to escape the apartment to look for her parents....and she was likely sedated prior to the alleged fall.

I have been thinking about this for the past week, and I've come up with a theory that Kate didn't know anything about Madeleine until after the fact.

I agree with the idea that she could've died in a fall while they were at the Tapas and that 3 of the MALE doctors (who so frequently ran back to the apartment to check on the children) participated in disposal and a cover-up. Especially with Gerry's personality, I can see him not reacting to such an emergency in a noticeable way.

And then you have Kate, who I don't think would be able to hide her emotions. All you have to do is look at the way she related to Gerry the first few weeks when she seemed to be angry at him. So I wonder if when she went to the apartment at 10:00 she was clueless about Madeleine's demise and only told the details later with Gerry convincing her it was the best way.
 
  • #364
I have been thinking about this for the past week, and I've come up with a theory that Kate didn't know anything about Madeleine until after the fact.

I agree with the idea that she could've died in a fall while they were at the Tapas and that 3 of the MALE doctors (who so frequently ran back to the apartment to check on the children) participated in disposal and a cover-up. Especially with Gerry's personality, I can see him not reacting to such an emergency in a noticeable way.

And then you have Kate, who I don't think would be able to hide her emotions. All you have to do is look at the way she related to Gerry the first few weeks when she seemed to be angry at him. So I wonder if when she went to the apartment at 10:00 she was clueless about Madeleine's demise and only told the details later with Gerry convincing her it was the best way.

Possible, although it doesn't explain the "they've taken her" comment. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

I've always thought the "they've taken her" was a truthful comment. They had actually removed her body. A good lie always includes some element of truth--and Kate is certainly smart enough to know this.
 
  • #365
I have always thought "they've taken her" meant..."It was not us, it was them"....the evil abductors. Everything they have done has been about "don't look at us, look at them".

I don't believe them AT ALL.

All IMHO, of course.
 
  • #366
  • #367
I have been thinking about this for the past week, and I've come up with a theory that Kate didn't know anything about Madeleine until after the fact.

I agree with the idea that she could've died in a fall while they were at the Tapas and that 3 of the MALE doctors (who so frequently ran back to the apartment to check on the children) participated in disposal and a cover-up. Especially with Gerry's personality, I can see him not reacting to such an emergency in a noticeable way.

And then you have Kate, who I don't think would be able to hide her emotions. All you have to do is look at the way she related to Gerry the first few weeks when she seemed to be angry at him. So I wonder if when she went to the apartment at 10:00 she was clueless about Madeleine's demise and only told the details later with Gerry convincing her it was the best way.

So why was it Kate's clothing that had the cadaver odour then & not Gerry's, Cali?
I know it is all very confusing!
 
  • #368
Hahahahahaha....I would tell you rashomon but then I'd have to kill you. Wildly kidding of course.
Please leave me alive - I swear I'll keep my mouth shut. ;) :D
But kidding aside, I'm thrilled that you have been able to obtain such invaluable info, Colomom.

A poster on another forum said some of her friends have the DVD also, so I'm really curious how one can get it.

I just watched the video with cadaver dog Eddie barking like crazy when he sniffed behind the living room sofa.
And if it is true that Keela found blood behind the sofa with five markers matching Madeleine's DNA (they could not obtain more since detergent most likely had been used), and also blood beneath the carpeting of the boot of the car with fifteen markers matching Madeleine's, then things look BAD for the McCanns, VERY BAD.
Gerry's statement discrediting the reliability of Eddie and Keela is nothing but self-serving deceptive talk, for he deliberately ignored the fact that these dogs DID find something!! Keela found blood where Eddie barked, and the blood was most likely from Madeleine.

I don't believe in the McCanns' innocence anymore.

But if they were involved, when and how they got rid of the body in the narrow time window avaliable to them is a total mystery to me.

jmo
 
  • #369
And why the case has been shelved?
 
  • #370
And why the case has been shelved?

If you meant to ask "And why has the case been shelved", I think it was because the Portuguese authorities did not feel that they had the necessary preponderance of evidence to go ahead with a trial.

I imagine that they decided to shelve it because they could not get the cooperation of the witnesses to recreate the events of that evening. Seems like every time they tried to conduct a specific investigation, like with the phone records or credit card statements, they were thwarted by the British authorities. While there was alot of cooperation and exchanges of information about sightings, I'll bet that the cooperation did not extend to the most important details.

It seems to me that there was a concerted effort to protect the McCanns. Unfortunately, it was at the expense of a little girl.

Anybody wondering why, after all those deflections because of "judicial secrecy", the McCanns still have not released any type of statement?

And why didn't they request that the case be taken off the shelf, and the investigation continued, before the deadline?
 
  • #371
The mysterious disappearance of Madeleine McCann

by: Georges Moréas, acclaimed book author and former French Judiciary Police Inspector

Madeleine McCann, known as Maddie, was nearly four years old. On the evening of the 3rd of May 2007, she disappeared from her bedroom in a luxurious tourist complex, the Ocean Club, in the South of Portugal, where she was supposed to have been sleeping.

No one knows what has happened to her since. Recently, the press echoed a statement from the Portuguese justice: file closed. This news is probably false. How can a magistrate, a police officer, allow for a case to be closed without thinking of the victim, a child, almost a baby. What if she was alive!...The confusion comes, surely, from the lack of evidence to charge the three suspects.

THE FACTS: The Ocean Club resort is a group of buildings comprising one residential block, two restaurants, the Tapas and the Millennium, tennis courts, the beach, etc.

On that evening, the McCanns dine with their friends at the Tapas restaurant. At around 10 pm, Kate McCann gets up from the table to check on her children, as she usually does, to ensure that everything is well. Her two babies, twins, are sound asleep in their cots. Her daughter's bedroom door is not closed, which surprises her. She goes in: the window is open, the shutters are up, Maddie is missing.

She rushes back to the restaurant to alert her husband. Together they return to the apartment, accompanied by their friends, and they have to confirm the obvious. Thus they set out to search the surroundings.

This is the situation that is discovered by the first police officers to arrive on location. Everything leads them to believe that the child has escaped. Maybe she is not far away. Searches are organised.

Shortly afterward, the PJ director, in Lisbon, receives a call from the British ambassador on his mobile phone. His caller asks him if he is aware that a British child has disappeared… He acts immediately. One can imagine the amount of phone calls that followed this intervention.

THE FIRST FINDINGS: There is no disorder in the bedroom where the child was sleeping. The bed is undisturbed. There is no evidence of a break-in, neither on the window, nor on the shutters, or on the door. A local enquiry finds witnesses, Irish holidaymakers, who state that shortly before 10 pm, they saw a man carrying a little girl, whose description corresponds perfectly to Madeleine's: face, hair, clothes. Now there is almost no doubt: it’s an abduction. The alert is given.

THE INVESTIGATION OF THE POLÍCIA JUDICIÁRIA: The PJ officers collect witness statements from hundreds of people, and as a priority, from the parents and their friends. They soon notice certain contradictions between them. For example, a woman states that she went past the apartment earlier in the evening and noticed that the bedroom shutters were closed. But Kate McCann states that the window was open and the shutters were up. And the investigators find no trace of tampering.

Furthermore, the shutters can only be opened from the inside. Can we imagine an individual entering through the door, using a lock pick, and exiting through the window, with his victim, after opening the shutters? Furthermore, the child's bed is not disturbed, as if no one had slept in it. Intrigued, the police officers examine the mobile phones belonging to each of the McCanns: the call history has been erased. Astonishing to think of emptying the memory of your mobile phone when your child has just been abducted! But the PJ officers from Faro struggle to do their job. The pressure quickly becomes unbearable. Little Maddie disappeared on Thursday evening. On Friday, the British ambassador, John Buck, is on location, accompanied by important elements from the police and from the judiciary. And on Saturday, three British police officers arrive, in theory to assist their Portuguese colleagues. The contact is not good. The local police officers feel belittled. However, having been involved with the training of Portuguese police officers, I can guarantee that they have no reason to envy either the French or the British - except perhaps over certain technical resources.

The working conditions are the following: 150 Portuguese policemen, 3 British policemen, authorities, diplomats, and journalists... everywhere. Not the ideal for an investigation. On Saturday, the PJ director in Faro tells the press: "It’s an abduction." At the same time, the McCann couple launch their desperate appeal in front of the television cameras. It is even said that the police hold a sketch of the abductor, but it will not be published to avoid endangering the child's life. A little late, isn’t it, to think of the young victim!

During this political, media-exposed bustling, the head of the investigation, commissary Gonçalo Amaral, begins to entertain another possibility. He thinks the McCanns' behaviour is not "natural." Otherwise, why refuse to participate in a reconstitution of the evening? He finds that certain witness statements do not correspond and that it is becoming impossible to determine where anyone was at any time. Thus, an implausible detail emerges when the Irish witness indicates that after seeing Gerry McCann on television, he positively identified him: this is the man that he saw with Maddie in his arms, on Thursday, at around 10 pm. Yes, but at that time, the child's father was in the restaurant with his friends...

Amaral is sceptical. He feels that there is a certain degree of connivance among this group of friends. Did they lie? He returns to the initial findings and examines the places from a different angle - as he would do it for a crime scene. The little girl's death becomes the working hypothesis for the investigators.

EVIDENCE OR PRESUMPTIONS: A suspect is arrested. He is a British citizen living one hundred metres from the resort. I will not mention his name as he has taken action against newspapers which said "certain things" about him, and the press barons backed down. It is said that he received 750.000 €.

Meanwhile, dogs trained to detect certain odours, namely those of blood or cadavers, are brought in. They detect traces inside the apartment, in the couple's bedroom and in the dining room; also on the outside the building. More troubling, the dogs alert on the child's soft toy and on clothes belonging to her mother. The dogs are placed near a car rented by the McCanns, and they sniff suspicious odours there as well. But this vehicle was actually hired after the little girl's disappearance! On the other hand, the dogs detect nothing, either in the car of the British man under investigation, or at his home.

The stranglehold tightens on the McCanns.

In the places marked by the dogs, minute organic fragments are gathered for DNA comparison with Madeleine's (from samples of saliva on her bed covers). The analyses are carried out in Great Britain. When the results arrive, there is no longer any doubt: There are 15 identical markers in the two DNA. It is the little girl.

In early September, the McCann couple is questioned, but released. The press reports that they are suspected of having concealed their daughter's corpse after an accidental death - there is talk of the administration of a sedative that was too powerful (the parents are both doctors) - and that they would have got rid of it afterward by transporting it in a vehicle rented for that purpose.

Meanwhile, this case has achieved an international dimension. The McCanns have called the English Prime Minister Gordon Brown and the investigation is followed more closely by the government of both countries. The press is unleashed. The parents play the victims of a biased, retrograde police force. The British newspapers really lay into the investigators, who are looking at the parents instead of searching for the missing child. The English police officers who are involved with the investigation (and who, in theory, have no power to intervene) do nothing to put things right. The public is gripped by this mysterious story - charged with emotion. A support fund is set up. Brian Kennedy, a British millionaire, offers his services. He takes on the costs of the lawyers and the private investigators. It's even said that he goes to meet some of the witnesses. Does that have anything to do with the fact that afterwards most of them refused to go back and participate in a reconstruction? The atypical Virgin boss also puts his hand in his pocket. It is interesting to note that all this energy, all this money is essentially used to defend the suspects.

New DNA research is carried out by the forensic laboratories in Birmingham, contradicting the first evaluation. It is said that the samples that had been collected (by the Portuguese police) were allegedly mixed...

Commissary Gonçalo Amaral requests another other evaluation. Impossible, the English tell him, the samples have been destroyed, or lost, one doesn’t know exactly, by the laboratory. Amaral can't take any more. All of this noise, this permanent pressure from the hierarchy, from the political authorities, from the media, prevents him from working properly. He is scrutinised, criticised, spied upon... Even his British colleagues are creating difficulties. Exasperated, he lets go in the press. It is a mistake, because his superiors jump at the chance. He is transferred.

Gonçalo Amaral has written a book, "The Truth of the Lie," which is now published in Portugal. I bet there will be some interesting details in it. At least if it’s translated into French. Will the press, already scalded by this case, pick up on it? Not certain! The McCanns have clearly implied that their lawyers were ready to take action.

To go back to the DNA, in France, unless I am mistaken, 13 identical markers in 2 different DNA profiles are sufficient for the justice. So, if the events had taken place here, first of all the tests would not have been done in Great Britain, but in a French laboratory, and then the McCanns would have been placed under investigation and most certainly placed in preventive detention - and only the judge would have been able to decide on a second evaluation.

Which goes to show that scientific evidence, even the most sophisticated, doesn't depend on a mathematical formula, but on human judgment.

THE PARENTS’ BEHAVIOUR: One can’t help but to say that the behaviour of the McCanns compared to that of other parents placed in such a painful situation is... different. To begin with, they looked down on the Portuguese police officers. They lied on certain points and immediately looked for support from their country's authorities. As if they felt threatened! Were they caught up in the media machine? The support fund which they set up (and which can be found on Google's business pages) has collected around 1.5 million euros. However, one of the first expenses incurred by that fund was to make two monthly payments concerning the purchase of their house. It is said that 600,000 euros was paid out to settle the fees of private detectives, who mostly turned out to be crooks. One of them even stated that he had infiltrated a Belgian paedophile network... In their defence, they have guaranteed that they have not used that money to pay the fees of the lawyers who are covering their defence.

These people have mobilised around themselves so many people, so many beautiful people we might say, from politics to business... that we can only wonder. Are they part of a network? Of a lodge? Of a sect? Of a clan?...

THE STATE OF THE INVESTIGATION: The McCann couple not having requested the continuation of the investigation, it is officially finished. As things stand, there is a 4 year-old girl, probably dead; and three suspects who have been released. One of them, the neighbour, suspected because of his past, but against whom there seems to be no evidence; and the parents...

There is evidence that they lied since their first statements to the police, namely about how they spent their time, visibly conniving with their friends. They couldn't explain the presence of traces of blood or cadaver odour, particularly in the vehicle they had hired three weeks after the facts. Even if in law the second DNA evaluation negates the first, it is not entirely convincing. The experts are happy to conclude that they cannot use the gathered samples they were sent, because they were contaminated. And even if we consider that the two evaluations were contradictory, which one should we believe? The destruction of the samples makes any confirmation impossible.

And after this pandemonium, Maddie joins the long list of missing children.

CONCLUSION: Everyone can think what they like, but Portuguese law considers that there is no charge against anyone, not any proof, not any evidence. They have "archived," the case as they say down there.

One can be astonished. But I believe it's a good way to start over in a more serene manner. In fact, nothing prevents the investigators from "discreetly" continuing their investigations. Portuguese procedure allows the reopening of the case at any moment, if someone brings a new element to it.

What is striking in this case, is that there is a lot of talk about money and very little about the young victim. Finally, one of the suspects received 750.000 € paid by certain newspapers to avoid action over defamation, and the other two, the parents, have collected 1.5 million euros in a support fund. Not to mention the money spent by wealthy patrons. As for the Portuguese police officers, they were ridiculed.

It must stick in their throats... I bet they are not ready to forget it.


source: Georges Moréas, POLICEtcetera

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1533&page=15 #223 (thanks summer!)
 
  • #372
So why was it Kate's clothing that had the cadaver odour then & not Gerry's, Cali?
I know it is all very confusing!

Now that is a good question! Maybe she was the one to do the clean-up in the apartment after the PJ had left (since they were looking for a kidnapped child, not a dead one and wouldn't have done any testing behind the couch that night). Maybe she didn't realize that transfer had gotten onto her.

IIRC, didn't someone change clothes that night? And I wonder if Gerry might have disposed of the clothes he wore.

I know, I'm grasping at straws. It's just that, IMO, Gerry seems like the parent who would be able to hold onto his emotions and fake his way through. I'm not sure about Kate, at least not immediately.
 
  • #373
The scent is on her clothes because she held Madeleine after her death. She would be the one who had to just hold the child (an unbearable thought.)

After that, they put Madeleine in the carry all by the closet.

Just a guess.
 
  • #374
Now that is a good question! Maybe she was the one to do the clean-up in the apartment after the PJ had left (since they were looking for a kidnapped child, not a dead one and wouldn't have done any testing behind the couch that night). Maybe she didn't realize that transfer had gotten onto her.

IIRC, didn't someone change clothes that night? And I wonder if Gerry might have disposed of the clothes he wore.

I know, I'm grasping at straws. It's just that, IMO, Gerry seems like the parent who would be able to hold onto his emotions and fake his way through. I'm not sure about Kate, at least not immediately.

Truthfully Cali with the way in which Kate acted after the fact, I think she is well capable of holding on to her emotions.

The scent is on her clothes because she held Madeleine after her death. She would be the one who had to just hold the child (an unbearable thought.)

After that, they put Madeleine in the carry all by the closet.

Just a guess.

Possible Texana, I would love to hear more about the fact that she is supposed to have changed her clothes during the dinner.
 
  • #375
Possible Texana, I would love to hear more about the fact that she is supposed to have changed her clothes during the dinner.

You know B, that rumor came from the 24 pictures taken during dinner that night by a nearby table. Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis made a big to-do about these pictures and how they were being sold to the highest bidder.

Haven't heard a thing since.... :(
 
  • #376
You know B, that rumor came from the 24 pictures taken during dinner that night by a nearby table. Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis made a big to-do about these pictures and how they were being sold to the highest bidder.

Haven't heard a thing since.... :(

Yes I know that Colomon but the thing that leads me to believe that these photographs may actually exist is that no denial of Kate changing her clothes has come from the McCanns, in fact I beleve that Clarence Mitchell said something like, So what if she did?
 
  • #377
Yes I know that Colomon but the thing that leads me to believe that these photographs may actually exist is that no denial of Kate changing her clothes has come from the McCanns, in fact I beleve that Clarence Mitchell said something like, So what if she did?

True, true...it would not surprise me in the least if she did.
 
  • #378


I just LOVED this....
 
  • #379
True, true...it would not surprise me in the least if she did.

Which of course knocks out the whole account of the checking on the night of May 3rd (surprise! surprise!) as Kate was not supposed to have left the table until the 10pm discovery.
If Kate did leave & came back in different clothes, then all of the Tapas crew are definitely involved, again no surprise to me, as noone reported this!

I am wondering does cadaver odour wash off?
 
  • #380
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