Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

[scandi]

Hi, I just watched Nancy Grace and heard about the 2 hour Memorial service today for little Caylee Anthony.

They all said it was a beautiful and dignified service that gave everyone a special glimpse of Caylee thru the eyes of her family who spoke and then thru new video of her as we hadn't seen before. People drove from Michigan and Kentucky to attend. A long drive away for them. Some arrived at 4am. It was touching.

It made me sit back from my 'puter and say to myself, 'Why didn't they ever do this for Madeleine?'

The public does get involved with cases like this and need closure too, as a psychologist explained. I know we have all given Madeleine a special place in our hearts and know she is a little angel now up in heaven.

Why hasn't her family done this for their little girl? I think people all around the world had their hearts stolen by Madeleine. They would thankfully take a moment with all the others to think about her.

It would be a very special moment in celebrating Madeleine's life.



XOX

 

[scandi]

Cipriano Case: Without a Trace of Joana
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:51 AM
Broadcasted by RTP1 on the 15/10/2008

Quick Facts:

1 – Joana Cipriano vanished from a small place 10 km in the outskirts of Portimão. Last time somebody saw her, she was on her way to a local groceries shop;

2 - Her mother, Leonor Cipriano, only reported to Police her daughter has disappeared two days after;

3 – After a long and difficult investigation, headed by Chief-Inspector Gonçalo Amaral, Leonor Cipriano and her brother were accused of murdering the eight years old child;

4 – The body of Joana Cipriano was never found, but samples of her blood were found in her mother refrigerator;

5 – Her mother justified those samples of blood admitting she had beaten Joana, for some reason, she was hurt and she bleeded from her nose;

6 – Leonor Cipriano and her brother, who had a incestuous relationship, were sentenced to 16 years in jail, for the murder of her daughter and niece;

7 – Before the trial, Leonor Cipriano accused five CID officers of beating her, trying to extract a confession. She named the five CID officers, and included Chief-Inspector Gonçalo (”Amaral Lector”, according to British tabloids…

8 – The Public Prosecutor’s Office opened a criminal investigation and ordered a police line-up, with the CID officers named and accused by Leonor Cipriano of beating her;


9 – The line-up took place with Leonor Cipriano behind a two-way mirror and she couldn’t recognize any of the aggressors;

10 – The Public Prosecutor’s Office magistrate that was in charge of the criminal investigation decided to accuse the five CID officers, but didn’t mentioned, in the accusation sent to the Court, that Leonor Cipriano couldn’t identify any of the aggressors, in the police line-up;

11 – Leonor Cipriano never confessed the murder of her own daughter. Her brother, in a letter written from jail, accused Leonor Cipriano of selling her daughter;

12 – Police is convinced (and the jurors at the trial found enough evidence to pass a verdict of guilty) that Leonor Cipriano and her brother were found, by Joana, having sexual relations, when she came home, back from the groceries shop. As Leonor Cipriano had a lover, at the time, they were afraid she would tell him what she saw;

13 – So, they beat her, in order to frighten her and keep her mouth shut up;

14 – Perhaps accidentally, they beat her so violently that they killed her. So, they decided to get rid of he body and cut it in pieces, keeping some of them in the freezer, while they gave the other pieces to be eaten by pigs (this is what police believes is the strongest possibility, because there was no other trace of Joana Cipriano, unless the blood samples in her mother freezer&#8230

15 – The body of Joana Cipriano was never found.
Media files

Xklamation-CiprianoCaseWithoutATraceOfJoana824.flv (89.1 MB)

*NOTE: Xklamation is the nic for Joana Morais and this appeared on her website. She is Portuguese, and very proud of it ;} And she has probably read everything about the Cipriano case. I do take her 'perhaps' very seriously. Scandi

xox

 

[TinaD]

Unless Madeleine's body is found, there will never be a memorial for her, sas her parents keep to the story that she may still be alive.

 

[Texana]

Hi, I just watched Nancy Grace and heard about the 2 hour Memorial service today for little Caylee Anthony.

They all said it was a beautiful and dignified service that gave everyone a special glimpse of Caylee thru the eyes of her family who spoke and then thru new video of her as we hadn't seen before. People drove from Michigan and Kentucky to attend. A long drive away for them. Some arrived at 4am. It was touching.

It made me sit back from my 'puter and say to myself, 'Why didn't they ever do this for Madeleine?'

The public does get involved with cases like this and need closure too, as a psychologist explained. I know we have all given Madeleine a special place in our hearts and know she is a little angel now up in heaven.

Why hasn't her family done this for their little girl? I think people all around the world had their hearts stolen by Madeleine. They would thankfully take a moment with all the others to think about her.

It would be a very special moment in celebrating Madeleine's life.



XOX

Honestly? I believe the family already had that moment when they took her picture to be blessed by the Pope. I think Kate and Gerry would be very contemptuous of any public need or wish to mourn Madeleine.

At some point when Kate and Gerry are quite elderly, they will issue a quiet statement that they have finally "come to terms with" or some such phrase, Madeleine's "probable" death. They will issue a dignified statement to that effect.

And Madeleine will never have a memorial service or anything like it. It will be just another of the many things she deserved but didn't get.

 

[april4sky]

April, I do not know you personally & therefore I neither like nor dislike you as a person! We have differed on occasions & I have become agitated with your attitude towards members who do not agree with you & therefore rather than become annoyed & cause drama on the boards, I chose not to reply to your posts, that is not an indication of dislike just what I consider to be prudent & respectful behaviour on a chat room which is graciously provided for me & others to enjoy!

Regarding your comment above about searching, I am sorry but setting up websites & engaging fifth rate shady investigators after the fact just doesn't cut it for me!
If the child genuinely went missing there was a distinct possibilty that she woke up, got out of the apartment & wandered off! Please tell me what parent in their right mind would not have been walking the streets in the hope of finding the child? Remember that this is a real possibility & the McCanns, Kate in particular, did not physically search that night, can you explain that to me? I sure have difficulty in understanding it!

Oh Barnaby I so disagree with both the above highlights. :waitasec:
Have you forgotton your previous post to me?

We are all entitled to our opinions and should be free to express them....both Anti and Pro.

Including, "As Sleuthers" pointing out when we see rumours and smears being spread as "facts and evidence."

Barnaby from what has been reported searching for Madeleine did happen that night by Jerry McCann, their friends, and many other people at the resort.
And that searching went on even after the PJ left.
Kate may have been told to stay in the apartment in case there was any news, or if Madeleine was found and returned to her there. That would be understandable.
I for one would not judge any parents reaction in such a nightmare.

I don't dislike you Barnaby! never have. I think you feel as strongly about this case as I do....Just in a different way. :blowkiss:

 

[april4sky]

April, I already told you you should consider it a compliment when I respond to your posts, and yet you say I'll be pleased if you don't post for awhile.

I've never thought disagreeing on issues was a reason to not like someone. There's always common ground somewhere.

You can always come hang out in the jury room and see for yourself how people can talk and get along even when they vehemently disagree on issues or cases.

Have a nice whatever--for where ever you are--

Hi Texana,

The "compliment" issue has been dealt with before, and I didn't say you didn't like me.
I just thought you would be pleased I wouldn't be posting for a while simply because we had been "butting heads" for a while.

And I don't have a problem with disagreements, only the fact that amnesia seems to set whenever questionable "facts" are pointed out....and consistantly ignored.

If we want to learn the real truth Texana I think all points should be looked at...And just as important IMO is looking at where some of the "information" we are being fed comes from.

I do read in the Jury room and have even occasionally posted there so I know we would agree on some of the issues.

And thank you! I did have a good time.

 

[Texana]

April, I'm glad you had a nice time.

And you're not affected by the fires as well, I take it.

I think that when it comes to Madeleine McCann, facts can be a matter of opinion.

 

[april4sky]

April, I'm glad you had a nice time.

And you're not affected by the fires as well, I take it.

I think that when it comes to Madeleine McCann, facts can be a matter of opinion.

Hi Texana,
I don't agree that real "facts" can be a matter of opinion, especially when they affect peoples lives.

And no, thankfully we were not affected by the bush fires. They happened in Victoria and I'm in Perth W.A.
We spent a few days in Geograph Bay and Margaret River, a beautiful area and famous wine region here.
It was difficult to think of anything other than the fires though as we travelled though bushland to reach Margaret River.
We have travelled through bush before but due to the fires this time felt very different, especially when we passed isolated homes dwarfed by the height and density of the trees surounding them.
It made you realize those poor victims in Victoria wouldn't have stood a chance as extreme heat and cyclonic winds came together.
It's so sad and must have been horrific.

 

[april4sky]

Cipriano Case: Without a Trace of Joana

The body of Joana Cipriano was never found, but samples of her blood were found in her mother refrigerator;
Scandi

Scandi Joana Morais's blog is nothing more that a hate blog so her "facts" tend to be somewhat skewed to her liking.

There has never been any trace of Joana's body found!
None of her DNA!
There were claims that traces of her blood were found but conveniently for Goncalo Amaral this was lost before it could be tested.

As far as I am aware no blood evidence was ever presented in court. :waitasec:

I have also read that in Portugal if you have a confession (again convenient for Amaral if true) you do not need to present further evidence.

And though Leonor Cipriano and her brother apparently " confessed" to killing Joana - they still haven't said what they did with her body. It just makes no sense. :waitasec:

 

[Texana]

Hi Texana,
I don't agree that real "facts" can be a matter of opinion, especially when they affect peoples lives.

And no, thankfully we were not affected by the bush fires. They happened in Victoria and I'm in Perth W.A.
We spent a few days in Geograph Bay and Margaret River, a beautiful area and famous wine region here.
It was difficult to think of anything other than the fires though as we travelled though bushland to reach Margaret River.
We have travelled through bush before but due to the fires this time felt very different, especially when we passed isolated homes dwarfed by the height and density of the trees surounding them.
It made you realize those poor victims in Victoria wouldn't have stood a chance as extreme heat and cyclonic winds came together.
It's so sad and must have been horrific.

That is pretty much the same feeling we had after Hurricane Ike; realizing the people who didn't leave in time, had no chance. As you said, a horrific way to go.

I'm having a glass of Australian wine right now. So see, we do agree on a few things.

 

[april4sky]

That is pretty much the same feeling we had after Hurricane Ike; realizing the people who didn't leave in time, had no chance. As you said, a horrific way to go.

I'm having a glass of Australian wine right now. So see, we do agree on a few things.

Agreed!

A great choice of wine - Cheers :toastred:

 

[april4sky]

Originally Posted by colomom
06 February 2009

Joana Cipriano.

Joana, who unfortunately, died, or rather was killed, as most of the forensic evidence indicates.

Courtesy of Dr. Paulo Sargento

I replied

The above statement by Paulo Sargento tells us everything about his "honesty," as in "lack of."

He was a "witness" in the Joana Cipriano case.
What a coincidence that he has a connection to Goncalo Amaral. :waitasec:

He also knows better than we do that there was "no" forensic evidence to confirm Joana Cipriano is dead.

It's strange how Goncalo Amarals cases end up accusing the parents even though he fails to find "any" trace of their childrens "bodies."

Joana Cipriano....No Dead Body!!...No DNA!!
Not even where the PJ claim the childs body was cut up. :waitasec:

There are definate red flags regarding Goncalo Amaral and his way of running an investigation. IMO

Talking about red flags..

At the time of my reply above I was not aware that Paulo Sargento is actually one of the accused in the Joana Cipriano case.......

Joana Cipriano thread - Justice for all Madeleine McCann family.
By clairesy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:18 pm
http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:lbaxinoN4uQJ:justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/other-missing-children-f11/joana-cipriano-t287.htm+joana+cipriano+case&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=au

There is third link between Joana Cipriano and Madeleine-cases. (Two others are Amaral and Encarnação).

Third link is....Ex-Chief Inspector PAULO PEREIRA CRISTOVAO

One of the police officers accused of involvement in torture in the Cipriano case is recently retired chief inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao.

He has been writing a daily column on the Madeleine case for a Portuguese newspaper that has been reporting sensational stories leaked by sources close to the police inquiry, some of which have later proved untrue.

I guess we now know who the Portuguese press’s “insider/source” was who leaked many of
the smears from the PJ…”Paulo Pereira Cristovao.”

 

[april4sky]

Very disturbing if true....

“Disturbing Similarities” With Madeleine

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641315666
Monday May 12, 2008 Alex Watts, Sky News Online
Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history – It was the first murder trial where a body was never found.

Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess.

Coincidence! :waitasec: I doubt it!

What must be the odds that Goncalo Amaral would be the only cop ever in Portugal to have two cases of missing children - fails to find a trace of either childs body - accuses the mother of one....and tries to accuse the parents of the other with the death of their children. :waitasec:

IMO Goncalo Amaral intended to clear Madeleine's case in exactly the same way he did Joana's......and failed because the world was watching him this time.

I think it explains the ongoing smears/books from these particular accused cops....they are still trying to keep the spotlight away from themselves.....as well as the ongoing search for Madeleine.

IMO all of Goncalo Amarals cases need to be reviewed.....by an independant outside body.

 

[Texana]

I don't think the two cases have any bearing on each other. There are too many variables. It's entirely possible that there was police abuse going on with the Joana Cipriano disappearance, but logically, speaking, that does NOT mean the parents were innocent.

It's entirely possible as well that Joana's relatives, being the kind of abusive parents who would kill a young child, are also capable of lying about what the police did.

Every year, we are required to have conferences with students who are failing, by the end of the fourth term. We tell the parents that their children are failing. We have them sign papers. And every year, in May, we have at least one parent who says, "You never told me that my child was failing." So we have to pull out the papers and say, "Is this your signature?"

I have always felt that the focus in Madeleine's disappearance should be on the parents' actions and words. Parents, unfortunately, lie. The parents in every case should face the same scrutiny--regardless of the police, their actions and words must be examined.

 

[april4sky]

I don't think the two cases have any bearing on each other. There are too many variables. It's entirely possible that there was police abuse going on with the Joana Cipriano disappearance, but logically, speaking, that does NOT mean the parents were innocent.

It's entirely possible as well that Joana's relatives, being the kind of abusive parents who would kill a young child, are also capable of lying about what the police did.

It's entirely possible too that it's more than a coincidence that Amaral is a corrupt cop.

IMO it is more than a coincidence that Goncalo Amaral is the only cop "ever" in Portugal to have the only two cases - no trace found - accuses parents!

I have no problem with parents/families being looked at Texana - and the McCanns were....but this time the world was watching so Amaral had to have more than a dodgy confession - which is why we had this conclusion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm
One paragraph from the Final Report….Volume 17, page 4,647, in which the Portuguese public prosecutor outlines his conclusions…..

"No element of proof was found... as to the circumstances in which the child was taken from the apartment (whether alive, whether dead, whether the victim of negligent homicide or wilful homicide, whether the victim of kidnap-to-order or an opportunistic kidnap).
"We can't even make a consistent prognosis of her fate, including... whether she is alive or dead."
******
As I said I don't have a problem with families being looked at but I do have a problem with corrupt cops.
And there is enough here IMO for Goncalo Amaral's previous cases to be closely looked at.

What must the odds be Texana?

That the same cop!:waitasec: "has the only two cases "ever" :waitasec: in Portugal that no trace of either childs body has been found," :waitasec: and he accuses both children's parents!

 

[Texana]

April, the fact that there are two cases where no body has been found could be because a) both sets of parents were extremely clever in disposing of the bodies b) separate perps were very clever c) the children were not ever abducted in the first place, but simply suffered accidents...and so on, and so on.

The facts in each case do not necessarily correlate. The fact that one man was involved in both can be a coincidence, or it can be fact, but the connection in and of itself, nothing logically can be ascribed to that.

Otherwise, we're back in the days of presumed witchcraft and superstition. You looked at me crossways and my cow died, and Neighbor Smith says you did the same, and his cow died. The moon disappeared in an eclipse, and my cow died, ergo, the two are connected.

As well, Amaral may not be the most honest cop, but that does not mean the McCanns are innocent. That's the reality. He might also be the most honest cop in the world, and be mistaken about the McCanns. That is also reality.

The Portuguese police may not be the most competent in the world, and that does not mean the McCanns are innocent.

Fact A (the nature of the Portuguese police) and Fact B (The McCanns' innocence or guilt) exist completely independently of each other.

I prefer to base my opinion of the veracity of Madeleine's disappearance on the comments and actions of her parents, and the cadaver dogs' responses.

 

[april4sky]

April, the fact that there are two cases where no body has been found could be because a) both sets of parents were extremely clever in disposing of the bodies b) separate perps were very clever c) the children were not ever abducted in the first place, but simply suffered accidents...and so on, and so on.

The facts in each case do not necessarily correlate. The fact that one man was involved in both can be a coincidence, or it can be fact, but the connection in and of itself, nothing logically can be ascribed to that.

Otherwise, we're back in the days of presumed witchcraft and superstition. You looked at me crossways and my cow died, and Neighbor Smith says you did the same, and his cow died. The moon disappeared in an eclipse, and my cow died, ergo, the two are connected.

As well, Amaral may not be the most honest cop, but that does not mean the McCanns are innocent. That's the reality. He might also be the most honest cop in the world, and be mistaken about the McCanns. That is also reality.

The Portuguese police may not be the most competent in the world, and that does not mean the McCanns are innocent.

Fact A (the nature of the Portuguese police) and Fact B (The McCanns' innocence or guilt) exist completely independently of each other.

I prefer to base my opinion of the veracity of Madeleine's disappearance on the comments and actions of her parents, and the cadaver dogs' responses.

Sorry Texana but I don't think it's like being back in the days of presumed witchcraft and superstition -
IMO it's a clear case of being back in the days of a witch hunt!
And that happens when you have a corrupt cop who can't solve a case and deliberately sets out "by leaks to the press" to smear the parents of that missing child - In order to manipulate public opinion!
These smears are then perpetuated, twisted and added too by the Jerry Springer like hate forums/blogs......It really has become that sick and twisted.

Some peoples opinions have been so manipulated by those smears that they are only too willing to condemn all comments and actions by the parents. :waitasec:
There is no evidence - not even cadaver - so no other reason.
And we know because the Final Report say's they don't know whether Madeleine is dead or alive!!

In the case of missing Shannon Matthews, her mother Karen's behaviour when she appeared on TV was compared to Kate's - Karen's was said to be how a real distressed parent who's child is missing would behave. And we all know how that ended.

I have said before I have no idea if Leanor Capriano is guilty or not but it's no coincidence that under Goncalo Amaral there were also leaks in her case too - Why? To manipulate public opinion!!
If she is innocent - she didn't stand a chance! - and Joana didn't get justice!

I won't buy into smears and I don't buy into Gonzalo Amarals "Coincidences"
It's just too much to believe Goncalo Amaral "coincidently" got the only two cases ever in Portugal. :waitasec: Sorry no way!!

Public opinion has been manipulated so much that some are willing - even now! to overlook Amaral - not only his behaviour and incompetance in Madeleine's case - but also show no concern that he has been criminally charged in the Cipriano case!

IMO Amaral was a corrupt cop, "along with others" and he has made himself wealthy on the back of Madeleine. :furious:

I also think it's no coincidence that some of these cops are no longer in the police force.

 

[Claycat]

I don't know if you've ever looked at the Eyes for Lies website, but this person had interesting insight back in 2007.

http://eyesforlies.blogspot.com/2007/05/madeline-mccanns-parents.html

 

[april4sky]

I don't know if you've ever looked at the Eyes for Lies website, but this person had interesting insight back in 2007.

http://eyesforlies.blogspot.com/2007/05/madeline-mccanns-parents.html

Hi Claycat! :hand:
I think this person has it right.

 

[Isabella]

I have to say at the time of the "disappearance" that I was one of the McCanns biggest supporters. However after a few months I realised there stories kept changing. And the thing is if your telling the truth why does your story have to change?

Regarding the comments from April about Kate never claimed she had been near 6 corpses or took Cuddle cat to work with her - funny thing about that..it was Clarence Mitchell who made those claims on tv and he is supposedly there mouth piece...well maybe it would be a idea to wonder whose actually lieing?

Its also funny..Amaral is a liar..Morais is hate filled..and everyone is a liar or trying to cover themselves - EXCEPT the parents and friends who couldnt keep there story straight.

As for the McCanns being the only one to search - personally i see them as trying to obstruct the case MOO