Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

[Clutchbag]

I agree in general, but there have been so many cases where the parents did everything they could to expose the case to the media after faking an abduction. It doesn't usually go on for 5+ years, of course, but it happens. I'm thinking of the Shannon Matthews case in the UK, or the Susan Smith case in the US. In the extreme, there's the JonBenet Ramsey case; her father recently published another book 16 years after the child's death.

they used the media to confuse things putting out stories that were untrue from the first night, they were not out looking for their kid bit phonjng dozens of people in the uk who then went to the media, then it snowballed and no one knew what was true or false, a perfect hiding place

eg

They spread the story that night that their window shutters were forced, broken, smashed, when it just was not true

They also spread the story about police being useless too and blaming them for things they had actually done ie trash the apartment

they also LIED about when they called the police, they did not call them until 10 40 pm this is logged by
Olice and can be found in the police files as opposed to kate saying it was within 10 mins of 10 pmand then complained that police lost the golden hour when this did not exist as the golden hour is an hour from when a child is last seen which was 9 15 according to the father, another lie and slur on the portuguese police

 

[osadelnorte]

they used the media to confuse things putting out stories that were untrue from the first night, they were not out looking for their kid bit phonjng dozens of people in the uk who then went to the media, then it snowballed and no one knew what was true or false, a perfect hiding place

eg

They spread the story that night that their window shutters were forced, broken, smashed, when it just was not true

They also spread the story about police being useless too and blaming them for things they had actually done ie trash the apartment

they also LIED about when they called the police, they did not call them until 10 40 pm this is logged by
Olice and can be found in the police files as opposed to kate saying it was within 10 mins of 10 pmand then complained that police lost the golden hour when this did not exist as the golden hour is an hour from when a child is last seen which was 9 15 according to the father, another lie and slur on the portuguese police

Can you explain more, or share a link, on the "trashing" of the apartment? I don't know what you mean by that.

 

[gord]

they used the media to confuse things putting out stories that were untrue from the first night, they were not out looking for their kid bit phonjng dozens of people in the uk who then went to the media, then it snowballed and no one knew what was true or false, a perfect hiding place

eg

They spread the story that night that their window shutters were forced, broken, smashed, when it just was not true

They also spread the story about police being useless too and blaming them for things they had actually done ie trash the apartment

they also LIED about when they called the police, they did not call them until 10 40 pm this is logged by
Olice and can be found in the police files as opposed to kate saying it was within 10 mins of 10 pmand then complained that police lost the golden hour when this did not exist as the golden hour is an hour from when a child is last seen which was 9 15 according to the father, another lie and slur on the portuguese police

not correct

here is quote from Police Files time line :

Receptionist Ocean Club H.J.S.L. was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 21:30 and 22:00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. He immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.

Bar chef M.J.d.S.R. heard about it on that night at about 22:00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millennium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.

After 22:00 R.R.S.B. and his wife were still sitting on the veranda in the B. family apartment. They heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. Gerald was seen and spoken to by N.B. and R.R.S.B. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on N.B.'s balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.


THE GNR from Lagos all arrived at the scene at 11.00 - which would have been imposible if they have been contacted onky at 10.40

you can check the translated PJ files at ( if interested )

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id229.html

 

[osadelnorte]

I have a question...I've looked at so much info, especially on the mccannfiles.com, and I can't seem to find any information about Madeleine's height and weight. They didn't list it on the missing posters or on the website? That seems really odd to me. Does anyone know if the info is out there, and why it wasn't circulated when she went missing? Even if the parents are to be suspected, wouldn't it make the most sense to craft a detailed description of the child to help people know who they're looking for? I find this aspect a bit confusing.

 

[Clutchbag]

Can you explain more, or share a link, on the "trashing" of the apartment? I don't know what you mean by that.

they allowed alot of people into the apartment and also into the crime scene room, most of whom searched around, and also tampered with evidence, ie, the window shutter which was found to be opened and would have had fingerprints or other marks on it. gerry let the shutter down and it was handled by three people of the tapas party before the police arrived, they were trying to see if it could be opened from the outside, ie try and figure out how the abductor entered. Now why was that a priority immediately and preempting police work. What difference would it have made.

Quote from the magistrates summary
part G
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

When the GNR officers arrived on location, several people had already touched the window and entered Madeleine's and her siblings' bedroom, and later on, when the PJ arrived at the apartment to collect traces, the space had already been rummaged through and contaminated due to the entrance of all of those people and to the fact that everything had been touched, thus rendering inviable, right away, the collection of important elements for the investigation.

 

[Clutchbag]

gord does it really matter what witnesses say if it is not backed up? the timelines in this case with witnesses vary by up to an hour in some cases, memories are all over the place and people contradict each other. As shown by the timeline you linked to.

This is the police log showing the initial call and then the follow up call ten mins or so later, to see where they were, unless youre inferring the logs were tampered with!!!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-BoUnwYyddB8/UEiYsWQwOBI/AAAAAAAABN4/G7Alnzqy0S0/s1600-h/image%255B8%255D.png

Not sure you are right about not getting there so quick, iirc there were two arrivals of gnr but will leave it there

 

[SapphireSteel]

Whatever time LE got there, it wasn't soon enough for Kate, who spent the time in between on the phone to the media and other noteworthy contacts.

Gerry spent most of his time on his phone also.

These phone records were never made available to the investigation so we don't really know who they were yapping to. The phones themselves were allegedly wiped.

One thing is without question however - Kate did not, at any stage, join the search for her daughter, and Gerry joined it only briefly.

Kate never once called her daughter's name.

 

[osadelnorte]

they allowed alot of people into the apartment and also into the crime scene room, most of whom searched around, and also tampered with evidence, ie, the window shutter which was found to be opened and would have had fingerprints or other marks on it. gerry let the shutter down and it was handled by three people of the tapas party before the police arrived, they were trying to see if it could be opened from the outside, ie try and figure out how the abductor entered. Now why was that a priority immediately and preempting police work. What difference would it have made.

Quote from the magistrates summary
part G
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

When the GNR officers arrived on location, several people had already touched the window and entered Madeleine's and her siblings' bedroom, and later on, when the PJ arrived at the apartment to collect traces, the space had already been rummaged through and contaminated due to the entrance of all of those people and to the fact that everything had been touched, thus rendering inviable, right away, the collection of important elements for the investigation.

Okay, thanks. I understand now. I knew about these aspects but I was thinking maybe there was even worse damage to the scene when you said it had been "trash[ed]"; I was picturing something else, I guess.

 

[Sheromom]

I am quoting my own post to add to it because I don't want anyone to miss this: Discussion of the McCanns needs to relate to MSM and LE reports. ANY discussion of the "friends" needs to be directly linked to MSM or LE reports and the link needs to be in the post.

Very little was released about the friends and much of the discussion was based on rumors - so.... from here on out, every post discussing the friends needs to be linked up.

If you have questions, let me or one of the other mods know through PM.

Thanks,

Salem

Just please do this, okay? This is the one case of all that has stolen my heart. And I cannot stand to think of it being removed again.

 

[Sheromom]

:lol:

Yes, they did take the money for themselves!

The private company was set up to "provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family".

We know that money was accessed and used for personal expenses, and that "Madeleine's family" is so vague that it also happens to encompass most of the members of the board as well who could also receive "financial assistance"...which they have done, in spades.

:banghead:

Four letter word I have never said aloud!

 

[SapphireSteel]

Four letter word I have never said aloud!

Bear in mind that this company was registered less than 11 full days after Madeleine disappeared.

It takes a bit of time to assemble a private company, so we can easily opine that the McCann began researching the form this company should take oh..at least 4 days before incorporation (lawyers etc were required). So that means that less than ONE WEEK after her disappearance, the McCann was already formulating a private company, employing lawyers, choosing a board to sit on the private company, planning the future of that company and the company charter, less than 7 days after she had vanished, probably more like 3 days, at which point she may still feasibly be located alive and well. Unless of course the McCann knew otherwise.

 

[gord]

gord does it really matter what witnesses say if it is not backed up? the timelines in this case with witnesses vary by up to an hour in some cases, memories are all over the place and people contradict each other. As shown by the timeline you linked to.

This is the police log showing the initial call and then the follow up call ten mins or so later, to see where they were, unless youre inferring the logs were tampered with!!!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-BoUnwYyddB8/UEiYsWQwOBI/AAAAAAAABN4/G7Alnzqy0S0/s1600-h/image%255B8%255D.png

Not sure you are right about not getting there so quick, iirc there were two arrivals of gnr but will leave it there

I think it is absoloutely vital to listen to what the witnesses say - to say that it doesnt matter ???

I have no idea what that link means as there is nothing but a load 0f numbers - it looks like though that someone has written GNR next to the numbers 0- whuch would make sense - the local PJ were called first - the GNR afterwards - If you did read the link in detail you will see that at least 4 GNR officers all testify in their statements that they arrived at the scene at 11.00 - coming from the vicinity of lagos which would have been pushing it if they had not been notified until 10.40 the first time -

 

[gord]

Bear in mind that this company was registered less than 11 full days after Madeleine disappeared.

It takes a bit of time to assemble a private company, so we can easily opine that the McCann began researching the form this company should take oh..at least 4 days before incorporation (lawyers etc were required). So that means that less than ONE WEEK after her disappearance, the McCann was already formulating a private company, employing lawyers, choosing a board to sit on the private company, planning the future of that company and the company charter, less than 7 days after she had vanished, probably more like 3 days, at which point she may still feasibly be located alive and well. Unless of course the McCann knew otherwise.

hey they had the help of the ambassador , the Prime minisiter, all of the UK judicary and of course the Pope - dont you know :banghead:

 

[Clutchbag]

I think it is absoloutely vital to listen to what the witnesses say - to say that it doesnt matter ???

I have no idea what that link means as there is nothing but a load 0f numbers - it looks like though that someone has written GNR next to the numbers 0- whuch would make sense - the local PJ were called first - the GNR afterwards - If you did read the link in detail you will see that at least 4 GNR officers all testify in their statements that they arrived at the scene at 11.00 - coming from the vicinity of lagos which would have been pushing it if they had not been notified until 10.40 the first time -

The bus from lagos to pdl takes 10 to 15 mins i would imagine a police car would get there even quicker

No the local pj were not called first, the pj were called by the gnr later

As to my link its from the pj files, showing the police switchboard number

 

[gord]

The bus from lagos to pdl takes 10 to 15 mins i would imagine a police car would get there even quicker

No the local pj were not called first, the pj were called by the gnr later

As to my link its from the pj files, showing the police switchboard number

The GNR officers were in Odiaxere; on patrol which is 10km further away they were informed by radio and still got there 11.00

anyway as you said does it really matter what the witnesses say - your point is that the deliberatley lied in their statemenst and I see nothing to back that up

Its 5 years now - they are free citizens and still people peddle rumour and innuendo

 

[Clutchbag]

The GNR officers were in Odiaxere; on patrol which is 10km further away they were informed by radio and still got there 11.00

anyway as you said does it really matter what the witnesses say - your point is that the deliberatley lied in their statemenst and I see nothing to back that up

Its 5 years now - they are free citizens and still people peddle rumour and innuendo

i didnt say the witnesses lied about the time, as you can see from your own previous link, the times they give are all over the shop, what you are inferring is that the police logs are false

the logs show police were not called intil 10 40

what rumours are you referring to? Btw

 

[gord]

i didnt say the witnesses lied about the time, as you can see from your own previous link, the times they give are all over the shop, what you are inferring is that the police logs are false

the logs show police were not called intil 10 40

what rumours are you referring to? Btw

rumours about swinging , sexual innuendo between the group, planned murder . to name but just a couple but you know what I mean they have been dragged through every rumour mill going - yet never charged of any crime - no evidence of any crime .

how do you know that these calls were the first made ? Witnesses say that requeste were made to call the police soon after 10.

but in the long run it doesnt really matter now - all history I suppose

 

[SapphireSteel]

rumours about swinging , sexual innuendo between the group, planned murder . to name but just a couple but you know what I mean they have been dragged through every rumour mill going - yet never charged of any crime - no evidence of any crime .

how do you know that these calls were the first made ? Witnesses say that requeste were made to call the police soon after 10.

but in the long run it doesnt really matter now - all history I suppose

Not really.

Their behaviour since that night is now public record.

They will never be able to put suspicion behind them after all of the shenanigans, legal games, and outright lies.

Like Jonbenet Ramsey, history will judge these two. Impassioned (blind) support will begin to fall away as each new generation comes through and asks sensible questions about why these two were never charged.

They may like it all to disappear into history, but it won't. The Madeleine Foundation and all that lovely money is a double edged sword. People will not be forgiving when the passion and conviction wears away and the blinkers come off.

There is still plenty of mud to be splattered, and plenty of people still very interested in seeing blame land where it belongs.

 

[gord]

Not really.

Their behaviour since that night is now public record.

They will never be able to put suspicion behind them after all of the shenanigans, legal games, and outright lies.

Like Jonbenet Ramsey, history will judge these two. Impassioned (blind) support will begin to fall away as each new generation comes through and asks sensible questions about why these two were never charged.

They may like it all to disappear into history, but it won't. The Madeleine Foundation and all that lovely money is a double edged sword. People will not be forgiving when the passion and conviction wears away and the blinkers come off.

There is still plenty of mud to be splattered, and plenty of people still very interested in seeing blame land where it belongs.

says it all really

I prefer to live in country where guilt is decided by police and the legal systems and correct procedures .

Not mud slinging and wild theories based on nothing but a very active imagination

 

[SapphireSteel]

says it all really

I prefer to live in country where guilt is decided by police and the legal systems and correct procedures .

Not mud slinging and wild theories based on nothing but a very active imagination

Wild theories based on nothing?

That describes the "abduction" to a T.

The fact is, no matter how many insults you hurl or how many threads you get closed down, you have absolutely nothing to prove an abduction except the McCanns say-so.

That is the "wild theory based on nothing" - the idea that Madeleine was abducted right in front of her fathers eyes, and the eyes of Tanner and the eyes of an unrelated party, Jes Wilkins, who saw neither Tanner nor the Abductor nor Madeleine.

Believe that you'll believe anything.