Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[redplanet]

AR said in 2014:
"There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive. What is important for us to do is consider all the options"
UK police in Madeleine McCann case probe new intruder link

 

[redplanet]

Regarding the comment "knowledge of the crime only the suspect could know". I don't think this necessarily means what most of us assumed. To begin with, I can’t find any direct quote from HCW relating to it. From what I can see in the Sun article, the remark has been interpreted from something Julian Reichelt (Editor of the Bild newspaper) has said, and even here it gives no direct quote. Instead it paraphrases.

Madeleine McCann cops 'don't know where body is buried but know how she was killed'
Mr Reichelt said today Christian B has "knowledge" of the case that only the suspect could know.

Their source, according to the article is an interview he gave on the TV show, Good Morning Britain. I can't find the full recording of that interview, but did manage to find a transcript of it. This is the bit where I think the Sun have got Mr. Reichelt's "quote" from but from reading it, it sound to me like they have misquoted/misrepresented what he meant.

"Well, from what we know this is all evidence that is so-called suspect knowledge, which means that ONLY the suspect in this case will know about these details and that’s why German police and German authorities have been absolutely sealed. We’ve talked to our top political sources in the past days about this. Even they weren’t told about these pieces of evidence that made clear to German authorities as they have pointed out that Madeleine McCann is dead. They have not revealed anything about that to anyone outside the investigation because from what we understand, they’re still trying to leverage that against the suspect but also use it to verify with any possible lead that would come in now, anyone who may have witnessed from 13 years ago to verify if the details these witness may be providing actually correspond with the so called suspect knowledge to make sure that they are really on to something and not after 13 years following another dead lead."

My understanding of what he's saying here is simply that the evidence the German police have uncovered is something that only they (the investigative team) and the supsect (whoever was responsible for MM's disappearance) will know exists. In other words, the details of whatever they've found is being kept totally secret from everyone outside of the investigative team. It "might" still mean that CB has revealed some detail of the crime which police have been able to verify as true, but it may not either.

TY for finding that very interesting transcript of what Reichelt said.
I am puzzled by his phrase "they’re still trying to leverage that against the suspect".
Because I've read elsewhere that BKA have not yet even spoken with CB about the MM case.

 

[Dlk79]

TY for finding that very interesting transcript of what Reichelt said.
I am puzzled by his phrase "they’re still trying to leverage that against the suspect".
Because I've read elsewhere that BKA have not yet even spoken with CB about the MM case.

No they haven't, at least not recently (still unclear whether he was questioned in 2013 or not). Possibly he just means that they plan to use it to their advantage against him when they have enough other evidence. The rest of the transcript is here if you are interested:

Studio - Asks about information/insight public prosecutor has

Yes he is, and that insight that he has points in the direction that they have an idea of how Maddie McCann died, of how she died, how the killing was actually done but they do not know and that is something they frankly admit, and it doesn’t seem like tactic,seems to be the truth.

They do not know where the body for example may have been buried.

What they are pursuing now is different people that were close to Christian Brueckner especially in his Portugal years, and one woman of German decent turned up who was running a, ironically a foster home there in Portugal where Christian Brueckner had access to it, and they’re trying to track down that woman but also a former girlfriend who was under age when she lived in, with Christian Brueckner both here in Germany but also in Portugal where he took her and then she was then deported back to there.

We have talked to that family they’re saying that she’s in hiding, Christian Brueckner’s former girlfriend is in hiding, and is protected by her brothers it’s a large family. Doesn’t even want to talk to authorities. So it seems you know they have these pieces of information to verify anything a possible witness may say. But so far they are still lacking that witness.

Piers Morgan then states that he has been following this case very very closely for 15/16 years? He thinks Germans have got their guy.
The GMB reporter then agrees with Piers Morgan.

Reporter continues:
I think the real problem we had initially with the investigation was back to those early days when we were on the scene just days after Madeleine’s disappearance is that there was no forensic taken at all from the apartment, and the law was apparently at the time that you are not considered a missing person until after 48 hours which is absolutely ludicrous when you think of those golden hours when someone first disappears to try and find them. So, the police turned up reluctantly a few days later and carried out some small investigation. So, all of that crucial investigation if there was an accomplice with this suspect they would have left some DNA, some science, some cigarette butts around the apartment if they were watching the apartment for example but none of that was taken
So here we are thirteen years later it is incredibly difficult for the Metropolitan Police, for the German police now who are involved with this investigation and scrambling around trying to find a crucial piece a key piece of the jigsaw puzzle to try to unlock what happened to Madeleine.

But in terms in terms of all the people I’ve been speaking to the contacts back then in light of this new information this certainly is very very significant. They have said categorically that they believe that Madeleine is no longer alive. They haven’t said what evidence they do or don’t have. But clearly they are being very open now trying to force the suspects hand if you like, trying to maybe get him to reveal in prison, although we understand they haven’t actually spoken to the suspect Christian Brueckner yet. He has not shown any indication yet that he wants to take part or help with this investigation.
So, at the minute it really is up to a new piece of information coming forward from the public and from holiday makers in Praia da Luz at that time.
This is what strikes me you’d think that after so many investigations and appeals that all of that would have been exhausted but clearly not. So maybe a photograph or something someone saw at that time that may just help.

Studio:
Someone at hotel may have unwittingly given away that McCann kids on their own as it was written in the staff message book? Is that verifief that this has led to the suspect knowing kids were on their own?

German reporter:
Well that is one of the very tragic details in this investigation because from everything we can see the parents wanted to take the best possible care of their children ad that is what may have led or help lead to this.
We know that this detail is part of the investigation. We know that this is in the German Police Files so to say. So, it is on record, it is being investigated officially. If that is really what tipped…possibly Christian Brueckner off, and to this point you know, German investigators are very certain they have the right guy, but if that was the detail that tipped him off, that is not absolutely clear yet, it is one of the details they are looking at it is on record, but it’s not clear that…it’s not even clear so far from what we understand from German investigators that he was actually going, that Christian Brueckner, if it was him, was actually going after a child when breaking to that apartment.

He had a long record of hotel break ins, and you know that apartment was kind of an easy target it was a basement, an open basement window basically so you know it could have been the investigators are not sure because they have not questioned Christian Brueckner about this so far if this started as a break in or if he was a predator going after a child.

 

[Dlk79]

AR said in 2014:
"There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive. What is important for us to do is consider all the options"
UK police in Madeleine McCann case probe new intruder link

Good find, I wasn't aware AR had said that. One of the biggest criticisms of Operation Grange was the narrow remit they were initially told to work to. In particular, the assertion that what happened to MM was an abduction, and they were to investigate as such. So for AR to make that admission that MM may have died in the apartment, a few years into the investigation is quite significant IMO. I'm pretty sure he would not have meant it in the sense that the parents were somehow implicated given how pro-McCann they are but does make you wonder if among all the leads they were following, whether something else pointed to MM possibly being killed in 5A by an intruder.

 

[redplanet]

No they haven't, at least not recently (still unclear whether he was questioned in 2013 or not). Possibly he just means that they plan to use it to their advantage against him when they have enough other evidence. The rest of the transcript is here if you are interested:

Studio - Asks about information/insight public prosecutor has

Yes he is, and that insight that he has points in the direction that they have an idea of how Maddie McCann died, of how she died, how the killing was actually done but they do not know and that is something they frankly admit, and it doesn’t seem like tactic,seems to be the truth.

They do not know where the body for example may have been buried.

What they are pursuing now is different people that were close to Christian Brueckner especially in his Portugal years, and one woman of German decent turned up who was running a, ironically a foster home there in Portugal where Christian Brueckner had access to it, and they’re trying to track down that woman but also a former girlfriend who was under age when she lived in, with Christian Brueckner both here in Germany but also in Portugal where he took her and then she was then deported back to there.

We have talked to that family they’re saying that she’s in hiding, Christian Brueckner’s former girlfriend is in hiding, and is protected by her brothers it’s a large family. Doesn’t even want to talk to authorities. So it seems you know they have these pieces of information to verify anything a possible witness may say. But so far they are still lacking that witness.

Piers Morgan then states that he has been following this case very very closely for 15/16 years? He thinks Germans have got their guy.
The GMB reporter then agrees with Piers Morgan.

Reporter continues:
I think the real problem we had initially with the investigation was back to those early days when we were on the scene just days after Madeleine’s disappearance is that there was no forensic taken at all from the apartment, and the law was apparently at the time that you are not considered a missing person until after 48 hours which is absolutely ludicrous when you think of those golden hours when someone first disappears to try and find them. So, the police turned up reluctantly a few days later and carried out some small investigation. So, all of that crucial investigation if there was an accomplice with this suspect they would have left some DNA, some science, some cigarette butts around the apartment if they were watching the apartment for example but none of that was taken
So here we are thirteen years later it is incredibly difficult for the Metropolitan Police, for the German police now who are involved with this investigation and scrambling around trying to find a crucial piece a key piece of the jigsaw puzzle to try to unlock what happened to Madeleine.

But in terms in terms of all the people I’ve been speaking to the contacts back then in light of this new information this certainly is very very significant. They have said categorically that they believe that Madeleine is no longer alive. They haven’t said what evidence they do or don’t have. But clearly they are being very open now trying to force the suspects hand if you like, trying to maybe get him to reveal in prison, although we understand they haven’t actually spoken to the suspect Christian Brueckner yet. He has not shown any indication yet that he wants to take part or help with this investigation.
So, at the minute it really is up to a new piece of information coming forward from the public and from holiday makers in Praia da Luz at that time.
This is what strikes me you’d think that after so many investigations and appeals that all of that would have been exhausted but clearly not. So maybe a photograph or something someone saw at that time that may just help.

Studio:
Someone at hotel may have unwittingly given away that McCann kids on their own as it was written in the staff message book? Is that verifief that this has led to the suspect knowing kids were on their own?

German reporter:
Well that is one of the very tragic details in this investigation because from everything we can see the parents wanted to take the best possible care of their children ad that is what may have led or help lead to this.
We know that this detail is part of the investigation. We know that this is in the German Police Files so to say. So, it is on record, it is being investigated officially. If that is really what tipped…possibly Christian Brueckner off, and to this point you know, German investigators are very certain they have the right guy, but if that was the detail that tipped him off, that is not absolutely clear yet, it is one of the details they are looking at it is on record, but it’s not clear that…it’s not even clear so far from what we understand from German investigators that he was actually going, that Christian Brueckner, if it was him, was actually going after a child when breaking to that apartment.

He had a long record of hotel break ins, and you know that apartment was kind of an easy target it was a basement, an open basement window basically so you know it could have been the investigators are not sure because they have not questioned Christian Brueckner about this so far if this started as a break in or if he was a predator going after a child.

TY and yes the words you have boldened are interesting.

 

[tedtink]

Maybe BKA have the person (OC Employee?) who may have tipped off CB to burgle the apartment.
Perhaps that witness evidence is what places CB in 5A?

 

[redplanet]

No they haven't, at least not recently (still unclear whether he was questioned in 2013 or not). Possibly he just means that they plan to use it to their advantage against him when they have enough other evidence. The rest of the transcript is here if you are interested:

Studio - Asks about information/insight public prosecutor has

Yes he is, and that insight that he has points in the direction that they have an idea of how Maddie McCann died, of how she died, how the killing was actually done but they do not know and that is something they frankly admit, and it doesn’t seem like tactic,seems to be the truth.

They do not know where the body for example may have been buried.

What they are pursuing now is different people that were close to Christian Brueckner especially in his Portugal years, and one woman of German decent turned up who was running a, ironically a foster home there in Portugal where Christian Brueckner had access to it, and they’re trying to track down that woman but also a former girlfriend who was under age when she lived in, with Christian Brueckner both here in Germany but also in Portugal where he took her and then she was then deported back to there.

We have talked to that family they’re saying that she’s in hiding, Christian Brueckner’s former girlfriend is in hiding, and is protected by her brothers it’s a large family. Doesn’t even want to talk to authorities. So it seems you know they have these pieces of information to verify anything a possible witness may say. But so far they are still lacking that witness.

Piers Morgan then states that he has been following this case very very closely for 15/16 years? He thinks Germans have got their guy.
The GMB reporter then agrees with Piers Morgan.

Reporter continues:
I think the real problem we had initially with the investigation was back to those early days when we were on the scene just days after Madeleine’s disappearance is that there was no forensic taken at all from the apartment, and the law was apparently at the time that you are not considered a missing person until after 48 hours which is absolutely ludicrous when you think of those golden hours when someone first disappears to try and find them. So, the police turned up reluctantly a few days later and carried out some small investigation. So, all of that crucial investigation if there was an accomplice with this suspect they would have left some DNA, some science, some cigarette butts around the apartment if they were watching the apartment for example but none of that was taken
So here we are thirteen years later it is incredibly difficult for the Metropolitan Police, for the German police now who are involved with this investigation and scrambling around trying to find a crucial piece a key piece of the jigsaw puzzle to try to unlock what happened to Madeleine.

But in terms in terms of all the people I’ve been speaking to the contacts back then in light of this new information this certainly is very very significant. They have said categorically that they believe that Madeleine is no longer alive. They haven’t said what evidence they do or don’t have. But clearly they are being very open now trying to force the suspects hand if you like, trying to maybe get him to reveal in prison, although we understand they haven’t actually spoken to the suspect Christian Brueckner yet. He has not shown any indication yet that he wants to take part or help with this investigation.
So, at the minute it really is up to a new piece of information coming forward from the public and from holiday makers in Praia da Luz at that time.
This is what strikes me you’d think that after so many investigations and appeals that all of that would have been exhausted but clearly not. So maybe a photograph or something someone saw at that time that may just help.

Studio:
Someone at hotel may have unwittingly given away that McCann kids on their own as it was written in the staff message book? Is that verifief that this has led to the suspect knowing kids were on their own?

German reporter:
Well that is one of the very tragic details in this investigation because from everything we can see the parents wanted to take the best possible care of their children ad that is what may have led or help lead to this.
We know that this detail is part of the investigation. We know that this is in the German Police Files so to say. So, it is on record, it is being investigated officially. If that is really what tipped…possibly Christian Brueckner off, and to this point you know, German investigators are very certain they have the right guy, but if that was the detail that tipped him off, that is not absolutely clear yet, it is one of the details they are looking at it is on record, but it’s not clear that…it’s not even clear so far from what we understand from German investigators that he was actually going, that Christian Brueckner, if it was him, was actually going after a child when breaking to that apartment.

He had a long record of hotel break ins, and you know that apartment was kind of an easy target it was a basement, an open basement window basically so you know it could have been the investigators are not sure because they have not questioned Christian Brueckner about this so far if this started as a break in or if he was a predator going after a child.

IMO the above is suggesting that one of the scenarios being considered by the BKA is that the intruder's original motive in entering the apartment was simply burglary.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

No they haven't, at least not recently (still unclear whether he was questioned in 2013 or not). Possibly he just means that they plan to use it to their advantage against him when they have enough other evidence. The rest of the transcript is here if you are interested:

Studio - Asks about information/insight public prosecutor has

Yes he is, and that insight that he has points in the direction that they have an idea of how Maddie McCann died, of how she died, how the killing was actually done but they do not know and that is something they frankly admit, and it doesn’t seem like tactic,seems to be the truth.

They do not know where the body for example may have been buried.

What they are pursuing now is different people that were close to Christian Brueckner especially in his Portugal years, and one woman of German decent turned up who was running a, ironically a foster home there in Portugal where Christian Brueckner had access to it, and they’re trying to track down that woman but also a former girlfriend who was under age when she lived in, with Christian Brueckner both here in Germany but also in Portugal where he took her and then she was then deported back to there.

We have talked to that family they’re saying that she’s in hiding, Christian Brueckner’s former girlfriend is in hiding, and is protected by her brothers it’s a large family. Doesn’t even want to talk to authorities. So it seems you know they have these pieces of information to verify anything a possible witness may say. But so far they are still lacking that witness.

Piers Morgan then states that he has been following this case very very closely for 15/16 years? He thinks Germans have got their guy.
The GMB reporter then agrees with Piers Morgan.

Reporter continues:
I think the real problem we had initially with the investigation was back to those early days when we were on the scene just days after Madeleine’s disappearance is that there was no forensic taken at all from the apartment, and the law was apparently at the time that you are not considered a missing person until after 48 hours which is absolutely ludicrous when you think of those golden hours when someone first disappears to try and find them. So, the police turned up reluctantly a few days later and carried out some small investigation. So, all of that crucial investigation if there was an accomplice with this suspect they would have left some DNA, some science, some cigarette butts around the apartment if they were watching the apartment for example but none of that was taken
So here we are thirteen years later it is incredibly difficult for the Metropolitan Police, for the German police now who are involved with this investigation and scrambling around trying to find a crucial piece a key piece of the jigsaw puzzle to try to unlock what happened to Madeleine.

But in terms in terms of all the people I’ve been speaking to the contacts back then in light of this new information this certainly is very very significant. They have said categorically that they believe that Madeleine is no longer alive. They haven’t said what evidence they do or don’t have. But clearly they are being very open now trying to force the suspects hand if you like, trying to maybe get him to reveal in prison, although we understand they haven’t actually spoken to the suspect Christian Brueckner yet. He has not shown any indication yet that he wants to take part or help with this investigation.
So, at the minute it really is up to a new piece of information coming forward from the public and from holiday makers in Praia da Luz at that time.
This is what strikes me you’d think that after so many investigations and appeals that all of that would have been exhausted but clearly not. So maybe a photograph or something someone saw at that time that may just help.

Studio:
Someone at hotel may have unwittingly given away that McCann kids on their own as it was written in the staff message book? Is that verifief that this has led to the suspect knowing kids were on their own?

German reporter:
Well that is one of the very tragic details in this investigation because from everything we can see the parents wanted to take the best possible care of their children ad that is what may have led or help lead to this.
We know that this detail is part of the investigation. We know that this is in the German Police Files so to say. So, it is on record, it is being investigated officially. If that is really what tipped…possibly Christian Brueckner off, and to this point you know, German investigators are very certain they have the right guy, but if that was the detail that tipped him off, that is not absolutely clear yet, it is one of the details they are looking at it is on record, but it’s not clear that…it’s not even clear so far from what we understand from German investigators that he was actually going, that Christian Brueckner, if it was him, was actually going after a child when breaking to that apartment.

He had a long record of hotel break ins, and you know that apartment was kind of an easy target it was a basement, an open basement window basically so you know it could have been the investigators are not sure because they have not questioned Christian Brueckner about this so far if this started as a break in or if he was a predator going after a child.

Classic Piers Morgan, “following the case closely” since before it even happened.

ETA: sorry, “... very very closely”

 

[redplanet]

Regarding the comment "knowledge of the crime only the suspect could know". I don't think this necessarily means what most of us assumed. To begin with, I can’t find any direct quote from HCW relating to it. From what I can see in the Sun article, the remark has been interpreted from something Julian Reichelt (Editor of the Bild newspaper) has said, and even here it gives no direct quote. Instead it paraphrases.

Madeleine McCann cops 'don't know where body is buried but know how she was killed'
Mr Reichelt said today Christian B has "knowledge" of the case that only the suspect could know.

Their source, according to the article is an interview he gave on the TV show, Good Morning Britain. I can't find the full recording of that interview, but did manage to find a transcript of it. This is the bit where I think the Sun have got Mr. Reichelt's "quote" from but from reading it, it sound to me like they have misquoted/misrepresented what he meant.

"Well, from what we know this is all evidence that is so-called suspect knowledge, which means that ONLY the suspect in this case will know about these details and that’s why German police and German authorities have been absolutely sealed. We’ve talked to our top political sources in the past days about this. Even they weren’t told about these pieces of evidence that made clear to German authorities as they have pointed out that Madeleine McCann is dead. They have not revealed anything about that to anyone outside the investigation because from what we understand, they’re still trying to leverage that against the suspect but also use it to verify with any possible lead that would come in now, anyone who may have witnessed from 13 years ago to verify if the details these witness may be providing actually correspond with the so called suspect knowledge to make sure that they are really on to something and not after 13 years following another dead lead."

My understanding of what he's saying here is simply that the evidence the German police have uncovered is something that only they (the investigative team) and the supsect (whoever was responsible for MM's disappearance) will know exists. In other words, the details of whatever they've found is being kept totally secret from everyone outside of the investigative team. It "might" still mean that CB has revealed some detail of the crime which police have been able to verify as true, but it may not either.

The second reason given for keeping the huge evidence secret from absolutely everyone, is: "also to use it to verify with any possible lead that would come in now".

 

[mrjitty]

That's not correct. Are you confusing the fact that he did two checks? One outside the apartments around 9 and one inside around 9.30.

I am mixing up that his 2nd check inside 5A was not recorded in the original written timeline.

 

[mrjitty]

So, the police turned up reluctantly a few days later and carried out some small investigation.

Just snipping this as an example of the way the UK media routinely mislead the public about this case.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, I've seen that, and some witness statement are not from may, they are later months, and some peoples statements have changed, and none of these statements have been proven, not everyone remembers correctly and some people lie
Don't know if you have watched the likes of judge Judy

One of the biggest problems is that the witnesses all discussed their evidence amongst themselves to create the timeline.

To a very real extent the timeline is their agreed version of likely events rather than their personal recollection of it, and once they did that, they contaminated their evidence.

I found the pistorius case fascinating because multiple witnesses experienced the shooting first hand from various vantage points yet disagreed about key details. By identifying things they independently agreed on, you can begin to get at the facts.

But imagine they had all got together in advance to discuss whether the screams were a man or a woman.

 

[Okapi]

QUOTE="mrjitty, post: 16481349, member: 122151"]One of the biggest problems is that the witnesses all discussed their evidence amongst themselves to create the timeline.

To a very real extent the timeline is their agreed version of likely events rather than their personal recollection of it, and once they did that, they contaminated their evidence.

I found the pistorius case fascinating because multiple witnesses experienced the shooting first hand from various vantage points yet disagreed about key details. By identifying things they independently agreed on, you can begin to get at the facts.

But imagine they had all got together in advance to discuss whether the screams were a man or a woman.[/QUOTE]

That's fascinating Mr Jitty. It reminds me of the experience of an old friend.

As a young woman she took part in the civil rights protest marches in Derry, Northern Ireland. She was present on the fateful day of Bloody Sunday in 1972 when British soldiers shot dead several civilians.

During the second enquiry into the event, civilian witnesses were encouraged to come forward with their recollections. By this point over 25 years had passed. My friend had remained in Derry all that time and had raised her family amidst the Troubles. She'd talked about the events of that night, it had been endlessly dissected in the media and it was an underlying narrative, almost a mythology, in local political struggles. She told me that she genuinely could not untangle her original memories from all the info she'd absorbed in the following years, and couldn't in good conscience give a definitive witness statement of what she'd experienced.

After the inquiry, she had even as an extra played a civil rights marcher in a dramatization of the event, which further blurred her sense of what she correctly remembered.

 

[Dlk79]

One of the biggest problems is that the witnesses all discussed their evidence amongst themselves to create the timeline.

To a very real extent the timeline is their agreed version of likely events rather than their personal recollection of it, and once they did that, they contaminated their evidence.

I found the pistorius case fascinating because multiple witnesses experienced the shooting first hand from various vantage points yet disagreed about key details. By identifying things they independently agreed on, you can begin to get at the facts.

But imagine they had all got together in advance to discuss whether the screams were a man or a woman.

I get what your saying but it works the other way too in that it can also add accuracy to the timeline of events. If one person doesn't recall what exact time they did something, they can judge it based on other events they know happened at a cetain time. e.g. person X did a check about 5 minutes after person Y, who did their check as person Z was going down for dinner. As long as one of X, Y or Z knows the time that they did one of those things, the other events can be calculated to a more accurate level probably than if all of them had to give their estimations of time independently.

 

[Dlk79]

IMO the above is suggesting that one of the scenarios being considered by the BKA is that the intruder's original motive in entering the apartment was simply burglary.

It sounds that way. One thing we can deduce is that none of the evidence they are sitting on points strongly to any pre-planned abduction scenario if they are keeping that burglary option open.

I don't know if it is significant or not, but even where he does talk about the possibility of it being planned, the word "abduction" is still not used. Instead, he says "going after a child", which is much looser term. That could be interpreted to mean a planned abduction or it can also mean entering with the intent to abuse MM in the apartment.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I get what your saying but it works the other way too in that it can also add accuracy to the timeline of events. If one person doesn't recall what exact time they did something, they can judge it based on other events they know happened at a cetain time. e.g. person X did a check about 5 minutes after person Y, who did their check as person Z was going down for dinner. As long as one of X, Y or Z knows the time that they did one of those things, the other events can be calculated to a more accurate level probably than if all of them had to give their estimations of time independently.

I agree with what you are saying but only in some circumstances, foe example if all the witnesses are equal and all have a genuine reason to tell the truth. In other situations, I think stronger personalities would push their thinking on less forthright members of the group even if their recollections were vague.

In this situation, I do think they probably put their heads together with a genuine intention to come up with the most accurate version of events. The major problem is that they had given prior information in a state of shock and probably fearing damage to their reputations and careers. After the fact, when things really were serious, they had to clean this up and then everything they say then becomes questionable.

 

[tedtink]

I agree with what you are saying but only in some circumstances, foe example if all the witnesses are equal and all have a genuine reason to tell the truth. In other situations, I think stronger personalities would push their thinking on less forthright members of the group even if their recollections were vague.

In this situation, I do think they probably put their heads together with a genuine intention to come up with the most accurate version of events. The major problem is that they had given prior information in a state of shock and probably fearing damage to their reputations and careers. After the fact, when things really were serious, they had to clean this up and then everything they say then becomes questionable.

I agree that it was a genuine attempt at putting together a timeline of checks that evening to help the investigation.
I think I'm correct in saying that K and G were not involved in the writing down of the checks on the scrap of paper taken from a sticker book.
I don't think that they were trying to protect their reputations at that stage at all, there would have been no need to have been defensive and lie about the checks.
It seems to me that genuine inconsistencies in the T9 accounts have been perceived as lies by conspiracy theorists over the years, initially fueled by PJ and the media.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I agree that it was a genuine attempt at putting together a timeline of checks that evening to help the investigation.
I think I'm correct in saying that K and G were not involved in the writing down of the checks on the scrap of paper taken from a sticker book.
I don't think that they were trying to protect their reputations at that stage at all, there would have been no need to have been defensive and lie about the checks.
It seems to me that genuine inconsistencies in the T9 accounts have been perceived as lies by conspiracy theorists over the years, initially fueled by PJ and the media.

Not just by conspiracy theorists, but also crooked local police officers who like to refer to the fact, that THEIR territorry in THEIR responsibility has been surrounded by paedophiles at that time, even years later. So they blame it at the victims of crimes that seem to have happened in a sex-offenders paradise, just not to be blamed as responsible for the "non-investigations".

And now bullying foreign official forces for the work that they do, that should have been THEIR task back in 2007! But they rather chose to write parent-bashing books! In which other country are former convicted or sentenced investigators allowed to keep on working in similar cases and have time to write books whilst still on duty?

What a shame....! JMO

 

[Lilly b]

Now I'm not sure of the date of this link, but it could be worked out, tractor man died in 2009, but if you read it, it mentions 2 German men, now the comment at the bottom of it is 2014, so it must be anytime before this.. Was March 26th 2014, just found it

Madeleine case in a right old muddle

 

[mrjitty]

I get what your saying but it works the other way too in that it can also add accuracy to the timeline of events. If one person doesn't recall what exact time they did something, they can judge it based on other events they know happened at a cetain time. e.g. person X did a check about 5 minutes after person Y, who did their check as person Z was going down for dinner. As long as one of X, Y or Z knows the time that they did one of those things, the other events can be calculated to a more accurate level probably than if all of them had to give their estimations of time independently.

Agreed but that is the process we would want the prosecution to go through in their presentation to the court. Not for the witnesses to do it amongst themselves