Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[redplanet]

Death in the apartment theory from Nov 2007. Does anyone know anything more about the Publico reconstruction, contained in this article?

Madeleine 'was killed as she screamed at pervert prowler', police to

See this page which refers to the reconstruction:
Reconstruction ‘casts doubt on Madeleine McCann kidnapping’ | The Times
And I believe the actual video may be at
Desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann - SAPO Vídeos

 

[Dlk79]

IMO that is not a signature. IMO probably just someone showing PJ how to spell the name???

I agree, I believe both versions were written by ROB. The second one is neater but if you compare the two you can see the same patterns and unique quirks in the handwriting. The way the double zeros are joined plus the way 'Matt' is written in both copies is identical and a unique way of writing it.

In the first timeline he calls GM "Jerry". Someone may have pointed out the mispelling and wrote down the correct spelling on the other sheet. In the second timeline, he corrects it to "Gerry".

 

[redplanet]

Similar thoughts from me. It makes no sense to link cadaver smell to cars that had been hired weeks later, or apartments that had been left weeks before, while every single movement of the MC's had been reported by the media 24/7 from day one.

More likely was there a contamination from a third party, either circumstantially, or even intentionally to set a wrong track! PJ should have been informed about the planned operation of the sniffer dogs very well and very early...

Could explain the "narrow mindness" of portugese officials very well. IMO.

IMO these alerts by Eddie (in villa, of clothings, at car door), even though geographically remote from the apartment, will be explained entirely as resulting from the action of an intruder at the apartment.

 

[redplanet]

I agree, I believe both versions were written by ROB. The second one is neater but if you compare the two you can see the same patterns and unique quirks in the handwriting. The way the double zeros are joined plus the way 'Matt' is written in both copies is identical and a unique way of writing it.

In the first timeline he calls GM "Jerry". Someone may have pointed out the mispelling and wrote down the correct spelling on the other sheet. In the second timeline, he corrects it to "Gerry".

Yes ROB describes writing both (search in rogatory for "activity")

 

[axelcruze]

Yes ROB describes writing both (search in rogatory for "activity")

Sorry to go back to ROB, i always found it strange that Tanner pointed out Tannerman as a scruff type i.e. unlike us / long dark hair but also that GM and JW did not see or recall JT being there - a very convenient eye witness that rules a few ppl out. It also makes me wonder what if JT wasn't there and if ROB wasn't there at the table, what was his urgency. Then i go back to this statement:

Waiter Ricardo Oliveira describes that plate status of the Tapas 9 when Kate returned to the group to inform them of Madeleine’s disappearance, “It was also at this time that he saw that Russell’s food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.” There is an innocuous reason for Russell O’Brien not finishing his meal.

In his 4th of May police statement, O’Brien says, “At around 9.35pm/9.40pm, taking advantage of the lull, before being served with the first [main] course, the informant (O’Brien) left the restaurant with Matthew to check the children. When he got there, his daughter was crying. He stayed in her bedroom with her…At around 9.55, he went back to the restaurant where his food had been waiting for 5 or 10 minutes. All the other adults had finished.”

Where was ROB. Notice he also looked like GM according to accounts, and he also looks similar to e-fits and SMithman description of looking like GM. Anyway, just saying.... i like to work back from his girlfriend JT providing a convenient Tannerman sighting

 

[Denis R Tandib]

See this page which refers to the reconstruction:
Reconstruction ‘casts doubt on Madeleine McCann kidnapping’ | The Times
And I believe the actual video may be at
Desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann - SAPO Vídeos

Thank you.

 

[Okapi]

I'm finding it hard to challenge the theory that MBM perished in the apartment - accidentally or otherwise - and there was no live abduction.

But if I consider the unconscious theory...

It is possible that she may have been unconscious or even dying when she was removed from apartment 5a. An incapacitated child would certainly save the offender time and fuss compared to either tricking her or forcing her to exit.

Someone posted several threads back about the possibility the child was deliberately rendered unconscious before she was taken. This may have been via physical restraint or chemical subduing (perhaps hence the open window?)

German LE believes she died soon after she was taken but they are circumspect on the exact situation and timings.

So there could be a question mark over the nature of her incapacitation when she was taken. And perhaps too in any subsequent footage.

HOWEVER, that leaves the issue of the cadaver alerts. The alerts which also back up the complete absence of the word "abduction" by HCW.

And may also be corroborated by digital chatter, or a confession to an associate re what happened in 5a, or subsequent trophy vision. (The fabled concrete evidence?)

So I'm back at the death in the apartment scenario. That's just MOO.

But come to think of it, it's a possibility the perp may have been unsure if she was alive or dead when he took her.

 

[Newthoughts]

Not that it matters at this late stage but the 2nd account on the ripped off covers of MM's book is GM's. It's signed by him and, I believe, is in the PJ files.

PJ Files: The Tapas Group's Statements *

GM - door open? Why the ? What does that mean in that context? That he's not sure or what.

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm finding it hard to challenge the theory that MBM perished in the apartment - accidentally or otherwise - and there was no live abduction.

But if I consider the unconscious theory...

It is possible that she may have been unconscious or even dying when she was removed from apartment 5a. An incapacitated child would certainly save the offender time and fuss compared to either tricking her or forcing her to exit.

Someone posted several threads back about the possibility the child was deliberately rendered unconscious before she was taken. This may have been via physical restraint or chemical subduing (perhaps hence the open window?)

German LE believes she died soon after she was taken but they are circumspect on the exact situation and timings.

So there could be a question mark over the nature of her incapacitation when she was taken. And perhaps too in any subsequent footage.

HOWEVER, that leaves the issue of the cadaver alerts. The alerts which also back up the complete absence of the word "abduction" by HCW.

And may also be corroborated by digital chatter, or a confession to an associate re what happened in 5a, or subsequent trophy vision. (The fabled concrete evidence?)

So I'm back at the death in the apartment scenario. That's just MOO.

But come to think of it, it's a possibility the perp may have been unsure if she was alive or dead when he took her.

The problem with the cadaver alerts is that if you take their reaction in the flat you also have to accept there were also alerts in the McCanns hire car for some reason.

KM was a GP. My friend is a GP next to a care home. Checking recently deceased residents to sign death warrants is a regular part of her job. I do wonder how a cadaver dog would react to her. Plus why take her?

 

[mrjitty]

No. Not in a legal sense it doesn't, and that is the distinction. Particularly where a Prosecutor like HCW is concerned and why he may be careful to deliberately avoid using that word. You can't be tried for the crime of abduction/kidnapping for moving/hiding a dead body. So if MM was killed in the apartment, technically there is NO abduction. There is just murder. That's the difference.

This was essentially how the PJ originally archived the case.

Apart from a potentially minor offence of moving a body, there was no proof any serious offence had occurred.

Missing persons is a very useful category which means you don't have an open murder case on your books.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes ROB describes writing both (search in rogatory for "activity")

This is one aspect I always hoped we would see the witnesses examined - but it seems unlikely it ever will happen now.

 

[mrjitty]

Sorry to go back to ROB, i always found it strange that Tanner pointed out Tannerman as a scruff type i.e. unlike us / long dark hair but also that GM and JW did not see or recall JT being there - a very convenient eye witness that rules a few ppl out. It also makes me wonder what if JT wasn't there and if ROB wasn't there at the table, what was his urgency. Then i go back to this statement:

Waiter Ricardo Oliveira describes that plate status of the Tapas 9 when Kate returned to the group to inform them of Madeleine’s disappearance, “It was also at this time that he saw that Russell’s food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.” There is an innocuous reason for Russell O’Brien not finishing his meal.

In his 4th of May police statement, O’Brien says, “At around 9.35pm/9.40pm, taking advantage of the lull, before being served with the first [main] course, the informant (O’Brien) left the restaurant with Matthew to check the children. When he got there, his daughter was crying. He stayed in her bedroom with her…At around 9.55, he went back to the restaurant where his food had been waiting for 5 or 10 minutes. All the other adults had finished.”

Where was ROB. Notice he also looked like GM according to accounts, and he also looks similar to e-fits and SMithman description of looking like GM. Anyway, just saying.... i like to work back from his girlfriend JT providing a convenient Tannerman sighting

ROB's statement is corroborated by MO because they went back together.

What I do agree about, is that JTs evidence appears to be completely unreliable.

She did not see GM and JW, therefore her timing is likely completely out. Second, her description of Tannerman is variable, and then she falsely IDed RM. The the Met went on national tv to say they found Tannerman. I really doubt the Met did this without speaking to JT themselves, and I feel her statement can be simply thrown in the bin at this point.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Sorry to go back to ROB, i always found it strange that Tanner pointed out Tannerman as a scruff type i.e. unlike us / long dark hair but also that GM and JW did not see or recall JT being there - a very convenient eye witness that rules a few ppl out. It also makes me wonder what if JT wasn't there and if ROB wasn't there at the table, what was his urgency. Then i go back to this statement:

Waiter Ricardo Oliveira describes that plate status of the Tapas 9 when Kate returned to the group to inform them of Madeleine’s disappearance, “It was also at this time that he saw that Russell’s food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.” There is an innocuous reason for Russell O’Brien not finishing his meal.

In his 4th of May police statement, O’Brien says, “At around 9.35pm/9.40pm, taking advantage of the lull, before being served with the first [main] course, the informant (O’Brien) left the restaurant with Matthew to check the children. When he got there, his daughter was crying. He stayed in her bedroom with her…At around 9.55, he went back to the restaurant where his food had been waiting for 5 or 10 minutes. All the other adults had finished.”

Where was ROB. Notice he also looked like GM according to accounts, and he also looks similar to e-fits and SMithman description of looking like GM. Anyway, just saying.... i like to work back from his girlfriend JT providing a convenient Tannerman sighting

In terms of physical attributes, ROB is a big guy and I think would be described as such, he looks >190cm and >90kg to me. I don’t see much facial similarity to GM either - which accounts said they were alike? I can’t see him fitting the Smithman description either - JMO.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

ROB's statement is corroborated by MO because they went back together.

What I do agree about, is that JTs evidence appears to be completely unreliable.

She did not see GM and JW, therefore her timing is likely completely out. Second, her description of Tannerman is variable, and then she falsely IDed RM. The the Met went on national tv to say they found Tannerman. I really doubt the Met did this without speaking to JT themselves, and I feel her statement can be simply thrown in the bin at this point.

It probably doesn’t matter but I think JT did see GM and JW but they didn’t see her - I could be wrong.

 

[mrjitty]

It probably doesn’t matter but I think JT did see GM and JW but they didn’t see her - I could be wrong.

You are right - i have it the wrong way round. Damn i forgot to much of this case down the years.

So as i recall it, the issue is how they would not have seen her or Tannerman?

That does seem odd to me - how she passed them. IIRC JW does not believe it was possible.

 

[Dlk79]

The problem with the cadaver alerts is that if you take their reaction in the flat you also have to accept there were also alerts in the McCanns hire car for some reason.

KM was a GP. My friend is a GP next to a care home. Checking recently deceased residents to sign death warrants is a regular part of her job. I do wonder how a cadaver dog would react to her. Plus why take her?

I'm not entirely convinced the cadaver alerts related to MM but I don't rule it out either. The alerts in the rental car could simply be cross contamination from a single source. If for example, say cuddle cat was in close contact with MM's body, all the other alerts could be due to items that came into contact with it afterwards such as kate's clothes. Those items in turn might then contaminate other areas.

Don't really want to get into a debate about the dogs again, not really possible to prove much one way or the other but I think the car alerts could be explained without the need of a physical dead body having been in there.

 

[Dlk79]

You are right - i have it the wrong way round. Damn i forgot to much of this case down the years.

So as i recall it, the issue is how they would not have seen her or Tannerman?

That does seem odd to me - how she passed them. IIRC JW does not believe it was possible.

It is an oddity, but if GM and JW were deeply engaged in conversation, it is feasible. One other thing that stood out was shown in the netflix documentary. JT and GM were doing a kind of reconstruction/explanation about the sighting while standing on that very road and they contradict each other about where GM and JW were located. JT basically has it that she walks straight past them on the Tapas side of the road with them both just stood of that curb. Yet GM then says he wasn't and that he was actually stood on the other side of the road, (the supermarket side) as though he'd crossed the road to greet JW. Also, in her 2nd statement, she claims not to have remembered where they were stood, just that one was on the curb and the other on the road. Interestingly, in JWs first statement, he draws a map of where they spoke and it tallies more with JT's version, being right outside the gate of 5A.

The timings of JT are also a little hazy. The first estimate by her husband ROB in his timeline has her leaving 9.20 - 9.25. In the second one it is 9.20. Then in her first statement she says it was 9.15, basing it on being about 5 mins after GM had left which they determined at that time was 9.10. Then in her 2008 rogotary statement she claims to have left between 9.05 and 9.10.

 

[mrjitty]

It is an oddity, but if GM and JW were deeply engaged in conversation, it is feasible. One other thing that stood out was shown in the netflix documentary. JT and GM were doing a kind of reconstruction/explanation about the sighting while standing on that very road and they contradict each other about where GM and JW were located. JT basically has it that she walks straight past them on the Tapas side of the road with them both just stood of that curb. Yet GM then says he wasn't and that he was actually stood on the other side of the road, (the supermarket side) as though he'd crossed the road to greet JW. Also, in her 2nd statement, she claims not to have remembered where they were stood, just that one was on the curb and the other on the road.

The timings of JT are also a little hazy. The first estimate by her husband ROB in his timeline has her leaving 9.20 - 9.25. In the second one it is 9.20. Then in her first statement she says it was 9.15, basing it on being about 5 mins after GM had left which they determined at that time was 9.10. Then in her 2008 rogotary statement she claims to have left between 9.05 and 9.10.

This is why I believe the Met in fact gave JT her off ramp from all of this by "finding" tannerman.

And it shows the problem of the timeline hothouse that took place.

I agree the orientation is very problematic as JW says he was on the resort side? Which makes it impossible for JT to have gone by. Which makes me wonder if she got that info from the timeline, in order to fit her timings.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

It is an oddity, but if GM and JW were deeply engaged in conversation, it is feasible. One other thing that stood out was shown in the netflix documentary. JT and GM were doing a kind of reconstruction/explanation about the sighting while standing on that very road and they contradict each other about where GM and JW were located. JT basically has it that she walks straight past them on the Tapas side of the road with them both just stood of that curb. Yet GM then says he wasn't and that he was actually stood on the other side of the road, (the supermarket side) as though he'd crossed the road to greet JW. Also, in her 2nd statement, she claims not to have remembered where they were stood, just that one was on the curb and the other on the road. Interestingly, in JWs first statement, he draws a map of where they spoke and it tallies more with JT's version, being right outside the gate of 5A.

The timings of JT are also a little hazy. The first estimate by her husband ROB in his timeline has her leaving 9.20 - 9.25. In the second one it is 9.20. Then in her first statement she says it was 9.15, basing it on being about 5 mins after GM had left which they determined at that time was 9.10. Then in her 2008 rogotary statement she claims to have left between 9.05 and 9.10.

It’s a pretty narrow road and they are recent acquaintances so I can see how they could be completely engrossed in conversation. The only way I can see both accounts being correct is if GM has his back to JT as she walks up the street so JW sees her as he is talking face to face with GM but he doesn’t know her so it doesn’t register. I found the discussion between GM and JW on the Netflix documentary completely bizarre. One of several oddities in the case.

ETA: Sorry, I think the above only works if they are on Baptista side as per GM.

 

[Okapi]

The problem with the cadaver alerts is that if you take their reaction in the flat you also have to accept there were also alerts in the McCanns hire car for some reason.

KM was a GP. My friend is a GP next to a care home. Checking recently deceased residents to sign death warrants is a regular part of her job. I do wonder how a cadaver dog would react to her. Plus why take her?

Fair point, Newthoughts. I'm thinking along the lines posited by redplanet, that the intruder may have interfered with and contaminated belongings/clothes in the apartment.

I take your point about the McCanns being doctors who would have encountered corpses. I'd be interested to know if cadaver scents adhere to live people? Just googled it but can only seem to find reference to the offensive smell of cadavers.

I actually came into these discussions originally to moot that the perp was wearing gloves/shoes carrying the scent of another deceased person.

Because my husband had been involved in the post-mortem of large animals and I can still recall the revolting odour that lingered on his clothes, boots and tools even after cleaning. And I'm not a sniffer dog.

Even without the dog alerts though, I still think a case can be made for harm in situ.

As for why take her... to remove evidence, he was meticulous in hiding his DNA trail in the rape case. Likely to secure trophy vision because he had form for that. And as I said previously, he may not have known if she was alive or dead when he took her.